Anderson Cooper takes viewers beyond the headlines with indepth reporting and investigations. Perhaps even before watergate that a federal criminal guilty plea has taken place. And the guilty person has said i committed this crime with and for the president of the united states. If this were any other person, given the evidence that was presented in court today, it seems to me a virtual certainty that donald trump would have been indicted and charged, too. Remember, who benefitted from this Campaign Fnls Violation . It wasnt Michael Cohen. The beneficiary was, according to Michael Cohen, the person who directed and then helped cover up this Illegal Campaign contribution. This brings this criminal case to the door of the Oval Office Like nothing we have seen before in this investigation. But jeff, obviously, you know, sitting president ,
according to precedent, not law, cant be indicted. Had the president leaves office, is this something charges could be pursued against him for . Well, it could. I think. I dont think the Statute Of Limitations will have run. You know, that could be a long way off. There are a lot of things that may change in the interim, but the Justice Department policy, and as you point out, its a policy, not a law. Its not part of the constitution. Says no criminal charges against a president while he is president. This issue may arise when the president leaves office, but all of that, i think, is down the road. Preet, do you agree if donald trump were not the president , if he lost the election, given what Michael Cohen is claiming and swore under oath today that he himself did under the direction of donald trump, that donald trump would be indicted or would
be an inundited coconspirator . The would be a likelihood of that, but i think its an enormously significant thing. I think its correct to say we havent seen Something Like this, the likes of this, like the president likes to say, the likes of this we have never seen. Because we dont know how corroborated Michael Cohen is on the particular allegation that he made in court. That this was done at the direction and in coordination with his boss, the president. When you say we dont know how corroborated . We dont go if there are tapes or emails. I tend to credit Michael Cohen on this allegation, fwhut president s lawyers are right that this allegation of this being done at the direction of the president is not in the documentation. The charges. Its not in the criminal information. Its not in the plea agreement. Its not even necessarily a requirement to form the factual basis for Michael Cohen taking the plea. You go into court, and you have to give a factual basis for why youre guilty. So one could argue, i dont
think this is right, and im sure giuliani and others have been arguing this. That it was a gratuitous slap by someone who has been left behind and now has an ax to grind with the president , to throw this in in open court under oath. It still is the case, he said it. Would prosecutors have accepted this agreement if they didnt believe Michael Cohen . I think if prosecutors thought he was lying about that aspect of why he did what he did, i think they would have a problem accepting his plea agreement. They would have to Say Something in court. So i think its enormously significant. Its not clear to me, though, not knowing what other evidence there is to back up Michael Cohen, who is, by the way, a criminal and a liar and now a convicted one, you need Something Else to back that up. You pointed out that this president go ahead, jeff. If i could just add, preet is exactly right that this allegation by cohen is not in the charging documents. But just if we step back and ask
ourselves, okay, Michael Cohen has pled guilty to an Unlawful Campaign contribution in terms of paying these two women. Why would he pay that without talking to donald trump . It is never made any sense that Michael Cohen did this on his own. Well, first of all where did he get the money. Second of all, who benefitted . That argument has never made sense. Its been made by all the surrogates who came forward after Stormy Daniels spoke. David schwartz was on the program, an attorney for Michael Cohen in another matter, and other friends of Michael Cohen, all of whom said the president didnt know anything about this. He did this out of the goodness of his heart because thats the kind of guy he is. He took out a home equity loan, didnt seek repayment. None of that is true. Either they were lied to or they were on television lying as well. Im not saying its not a good case against the president based on the fact Michael Cohen is willing to say it under oath. Common sense, as jeff points
out, the benefit of this is for the president. Doesnt make sense for a lawyer in Good Standing to have done these actions without the permission and the direction of the president. You could make a case. Im just saying i dont know how much direct hard evidence there is to corroborate. Not regarding Stormy Daniels. Theres audiotape regarding the Karen Mcdougal situation in which donald trump and Michael Cohen, i dont know if conspiring is the right word, but they seem to be talking about and discussing the details of buying the rights to her story from ami. Why they would be not like trump magazine actually exists that they were buying the rights so they could publish it. They were wanting to hold on to the rights so if the head of ami got hit by a truck in the immortal words of then candidate donald trump, they would be safe. You said he could still get immunity from mueller or immunity from congress if democrats win and decide to pursue impeachment charges. In both scenarios, he would be compelled to testify, right . Right. And its not it doesnt even require an impeachment investigation. Remember, congress has very broad jurisdiction to investigate whatever they want. They could be investigating Campaign Fninance violations. Congress has the power to give immunity to people that they want, who are citing their fifth amendment rights. Congress generally refrains from doing so if its going to interfere with a Criminal Investigation. But here, that Criminal Investigation is over. Theres no risk of a case against Michael Cohen because hes already pleaded guilty. So if jerry nadler, woo was the democrat who would be chairman of the judiciary committee, says we want to investigate this, and if his colleagues vote to give cohen immunity, he has to testify before congress. And if he doesnt, he goes to jail for contempt. Same principle applies if robert
mueller wants to give him immunity, if Robert Mueller says i want to hear what cohp has to say, im not worried about jeopardizing the southern districts investigation because its over, he can give him immunity and force cohen to testify before muellers grand jury. So i expect we will hear from Michael Cohen one way or another in one or more forms before too long. Preet, do you agree with that . I do. Overall, given the events of today, the likelihood of impeachment certainly went up. Because of Michael Cohen. More people, i saw people who were on the right, theyre maybe never trumpers who were saying themselves this is a bridge too far. You have something that didnt come directly out of the mueller investigation. Out of my former office which im very proud of today. From a person who is associated with the president , who has some Credibility Problems but also you have reasons to believe him. About something thats tangible and real, in which the person who is alleging the thing is not
just charged but pled guilty to it. So there is added credibility. When someone says i did this crime, this is not a witch hunt against me. And not only did i do the crime, i did it with this other person, at the direction of this other person, all of common sense and Common Sense Reasoning tells you makes total sense. Like thats the normal way it would occur. That someone says, i cant be hurt in the election. And all the evidence is that this was related to the election. And then a Guy Pleads Gaement to it and says this was my coconspirator, and it makes sense it would be because thats the person who benefitted, thats a much more tangible, concrete thing, for people who care about these things to pursue. You then charge according to these documents with false consulting fees, essentially, to his corporation to then various ways, cheating on each other, and you have as you said the lies. You know, theres a back and forth story, whether youre talking about the meeting in trump tower related to the
russia investigation or youre talking about the payments to the two women, Donald Trumps story keeps changing about it. At any trial that would occur in the house or somewhere else or in the senate or somewhere else, you explain to the people who are the deciders of fact, if there was nothing to hide here and you werent involved, why do you keep lying about it . This is as swampy as it gets. Thanks very much. Jeff is going to stay with us because i want to explore more of the political angles preet was talking about. Joining us is jen psaki, and former senator rick santorum. Senator santorum, is there any scenario where this isnt a big problem for the president , whether its political or, you know, well political, lets say . No, you focused, i think rightfully so, on the cohen plea bargain. I dont think the manafort guilty plea guilty conviction is problematic for the president. But Michael Cohens admission or pleading guilty to, quote, cooperating with the president
in violating Campaign Finance laws, thats a serious problem for the president. Period. Jen, of all the things that have gone on over the last year and a half, in your opinion, is this the biggest shoe to drop so far . Look, i think if there was a movie script about what happened today and cohens statements in court and the manafort conviction, you wouldnt believe it. This is like one of those Movie Montages where several things happen at once and youre like its getting to the end of the movie because its a montage. Youre thinking this isnt realistic. Theres no way this could happen in real life. This just happened in an hour this afternoon. I do think it should be a game changer politically. It wont be right now because republicans are scared of trumps base. And unsettling them. Democrats are probably not scared but they dont want to energize trumps base, and were two months from an election. This is definitely a game changer in terms of the politics of this and being accused of committing a federal crime to win an election, which is whatMichael Cohen accused the president of, is a serious difference from what we have seen, where we were just even a couple days ago. I want to pick this up after the break. Want to get a quick break in. Also tonight, the other big case today, the conviction of Paul Manafort, the other guy the president suggests he never knew, also known as the man who ran his campaign. That and more ahead on the program. Before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn, lucy could only imagine enjoying a slice of pizza. Now its as easy as pie. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday, allnight protection. Can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn . Fuels that go further so drivers pump less. Improving efficiency is what we do best. Energy lives here. You shouldnt be rushed into booking a hotel. With expedias addon advantage, booking a Flight Unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip. Addon advantage. Only when you book with expedia. Whats a difference a day makes. Yesterday on fox, Rudy Giuliani was saying this. If he gets indicted for something that has nothing to do with the president , i feel sorry for michael, although i dont know how sorry i feel for him because he was tape recording the world and deceiving him, including his client. This is today, and today, Michael Cohens client, now his exclient is a possible alleged coconspirator. Jeff, just before the break, jen was saying this could eventually be a Breaking Point for the president s supporters in congress. Do you agree with that . You know, we have been spending two years now saying this is it. This is the straw that breaks the camels back, whether its saying that donald trump and were having a Connection Problem with jeff. Senator santorum, do you ill take a shot at that. Do you see any appetite certainly on the republican side for addressing this . Well, i mean, look, there are three big stories today. Two that were talking about, manafort and cohen guilty pleas and convictions. But the third story is this horrific story out of iowa of this young girl being killed by an illegal immigrant. And to most americans, and certainly to the trump base, the issue of donald trump standing up and actually trying to do something about these types of situations is much more personal to them than a potential Campaign Violation of a smarmy
attorney with a sort of not particularly attractive whole situation that with a porn star. Those things have already sort of been discounted in the eyes of the american public. These other things that are much more real to people, i think, are going to be more persuasive. You dont think, just the moral character i know if were talking about the trump base, theyre obviously various forms of supporters of the president , but a man who has repeatedly lied, lied to the American People, whose surrogates have repeatedly lied about this or been lied to by him, and has surrounded himself with people who are now convicted crooks and also selfprofessed crooks. And some of whom are now at least one, his former lawyer, who is now pointing the finger at his former client, saying he was a crook, too. I know the base may not care, but just fairminded people, dont you think youre selling them short to say they dont
care about that . Im not saying they dont care. I say i think they care more about other things. Number one, to say he surrounded himself with convicted criminals, i mean, they were not convicted criminals when he surrounded himself with them. I think thats a little too much. They had been. Because they had already broken the law. But they werent convicted. So the idea they were criminals. The idea that he knew they were criminals. Unconvicted criminals. Youre making the assumption he would have known they were doing Criminal Activity, which of course, he did not. Unless he was engaged in Criminal Activity and thats why he had so many around him, like his attorney. Thats what his attorney has accused him of. Preet bharara did a good job of explaining this is his side of the story. Its obviously President Trump has a different story. The big problem with President Trumps story is its not been a consistent story. And thats problematic for him. But were still, you know, look, this is a serious problem. This is a game changer in many regards. But looking at who this is
coming from and the circumstances around it, i just think it doesnt weigh as heavily as some other charge might. But you know, jeff toobin, isnt it hard to, on the one hand argue, well, this is coming from skuzy people, when donald trump particularly chose these skuzy people to be around him. I mean, if youre bathing in filth and then some of that filth gets on you, its a little hard to say, well, i cant believe these people are dirty when in fact im the one who has employed these people and the very reason i probably employed them is because theyre willing to do just about anything for me. At least in Michael Cohens case. Thats part of it. Or what does it say about your judgment that you picked a National Security adviser, Convicted Felon now. What about your Campaign Chairman . Convicted felon now. What about your personal attorney . Convicted felon. Now, it is true, as rick points out, they werent Convicted Felons when he hired them. But what does it say about your judgment that these are the people you choose to surround yourself with . I dont think it says anything good. Well, first off, number one, general flynn was is not a smarmy character. General flynn served this Country Terrifically as a military officer. But he did lie to a federal investigator. You know, he made a mistake, and he committed a crime, and he took the hit for it. But to suggest that thats a bad guy to surround yourself with, i think is overstating the case. Paul manafort has been employed by republicans all over the map. For a long, long time before donald trump. B