In the ongoing war of him and him alone against his perceived enemies, whether its the press, the experts or even today a study done under the auspices of government scientists. Its a world view in which none of which really happening truly matters except as it affects the president and his chances for reelection. Or even merely annoys him. So today when asked whether he has a plan to address the needs of the unemployed, he took umbrage. Instead of respecting those 36 Million People and giving a few specifics, he focused on himself and the reporter asking on their behalf was allegedly treating him. Why havent you announced a plan to get 36 million unemployed americans back to work . Youre overseeing economic despair . What is the plan . Were opening up our country. Just a rude person you are. Were opening up our country. Were opening it up very fast. The plan is each state is opening and its opening up very effectively. When you see the numbers, i think even you will be impressed, which is pretty hard to impress you. Yeah, go ahead, please. Go ahead. Enough of you, he said. But he had nothing actually specific to say to the 36 million men and women now wondering how to support their families and themselves. He also would not commit to following the rules about Wearing Masks that apply to everyone or anyone entering the ford plant hes visiting on thursday. Rules we might add so many people seem willing and happy to follow, even if its a little uncomfortable to keep others safe from the virus, which is the point of wearing a mask. For other people. Heres what the president said about that. Do you plan to wear one when you go there on thursday . I dont know. I havent even thought of it. It depends. I mean, you know, in certain areas i would, in certain areas i dont. But i will certainly look at it. It depends on what situation. Am i standing right next to everybody or am i spread out . And also you look, you know, is something a hospital, is it a ward, what is it exactly . Im going to a plant, so well see. Where its appropriate i would do it certainly. Well, if he does, it would be a first according to our White House Team who say he has never been seen wearing a mask, even though a bit more than a week ago he made wearing one mandatory for his staff in the west wing. You recall he also said its not his thing, quote, somehow i dont see it for myself. Not even when greeting veterans of the Second World War and greeting is the word here. Honoring these men in their 90s. National treasures they are, the last members of a noble generation would mean protecting them from a deadly virus by wearing a mask even if it may not be your thing. Does seem there is at least social distancing. Because its not about one person. Its about the many people who see that person and model their behavior on what they see, which brings us to the one item which clearly is the president s thing, the drug hydroxychloroquine which the president last night said hes now taking despite studies showing it doesnt help and sometimes causes lifethreatening heart problems. Hydroxychloroquine, causes serious side effects, would that be why is it okay for you to promote the use of this drug when youre not a doctor and well, ive worked with doctors. And if you look at the one survey, the only bad survey that were giving it to people that were in very bad shape, they were very old, almost dead. It was a trump enemy statement. It was a trump enemy statement. Only in this time right now, i mean, only in this environment that we are living in could a study a Scientific Study be seemed by the president of the United States a trump enemy statement. Its just weird stuff. About the study, just so you know, it was funded by the n. I. H. Where dr. Fauci works, and the university of virginia. And it looked at hundreds of patients at v. A. Hospitals, veterans who, according to President Trump, were ready to die. It showed that patients receiving the drug were no less likely to need mechanical ventilation, it didnt keep them off the ventilators. And some of those receiving the drugs actually had higher death rates compared to those who did not take the drug. But it was not Peer Reviewed and certainly not the final word on the subject. But its also in line with other studies that have been done. It also wasnt, by any measure, a trump enemy statement. I mean, we are now in an environment where a Scientific Study, again, not Peer Reviewed, but a legitimate study is somehow everything is through the lens for this president of politics and for or against and division. It wasnt even about the study wasnt about donald trump at all, except as the president is choosing to make it. It was about the search for a treatment to stop a pandemic affecting the entire planet. I can guarantee you the doctors and the scientists who are actually interacting with patients every day, who are actually holding the hands and nurses who are holding the hands of people who die. I guarantee you, theyre not thinking about politics. They want a or anything other than finding something that will save peoples lives. Do you really believe doctors and nurses and scientists, that they care more about the president and politics than they do about actually just saving a persons life . Is that why they became doctors and nurses and scientists . I dont think so. They dont care about the political fortunes of donald trump. The study is nothing about that. Just as the fdas warning about the side effects of hydroxychloroquine wasnt about President Trump. But in his mind, it probably is. Its about preventing potentially thousands of lost lives, even the president who continues to defend his drug of choice because its his drug of choice. Hydroxychloroquine is used by thousands and thousands of frontline workers so that hopefully they dont catch this horrible disease or whatever you want to call it. It is a terrible virus. Its a terrible thing. And a lot of people are taking it, a lot of doctors are taking it, lot of people swear by it. Its gotten a Bad Reputation only because im promoting it, so im obviously a very bad promoter. If anybody else were promoting it, theyd say this is the greatest thing ever. But because of me again, with me. As for the frontline workers hes talking about, we obviously cant speak to them all. However, we did reach out to frontline professionals who are familiar faces on the program and cnn global town hall. They include e. R. Doctors, Infectious Disease specialists, epidemiologists, e. R. Nurse, c. E. O. , people from all corners of the Public Health professions. None of the people you see on the screen are taking the drug. Theyve seen the effects, side effects of the drug. Like the president , they, too, have the lives and wellbeing of many people to consider. Where they differ from the president is how theyre handling that awesome responsibility. Joining us now is the dean of the school of Public Health at the State University of new york in albany. Lead researcher of one recent major study of hydroxychloroquine. David, thanks for joining us again. First of all, when you hear the president talking like this about hydroxychloroquine, whats your reaction . Well, i think its important to be able to separate a what a public official does as a private patient and what they might talk to their physician about versus what they say when theyre speaking as a public official and government leader. I think when someone speaks as a government leader, its really important that they be able to describe what we know and what we not know in the literature and to be able to talk completely what does the evidence say, what are we finding in the new england journal of medicine study, our study in the journal of american medical association, and to give people complete information about whats working, whats not working and what potential side effects are. I think its also important that when a public official comes forward, there is a reflection of what their access to medical care might be compared to peoples access to medical care in the general population. Weve heard from the fda and n. I. H. And others that these drugs, hydroxychloroquine, especially with a signatuazithr be in a controlled trial. When we think about access to care that the president has, it is much more like someone being in Constant Care and supervision. When people in the general public are considering whether or not they should take these drugs, their level of access to care may not be the same. And i think thats a really important point to keep in mind as well. Its an incredibly important point. And people, you know, who have constant access to a doctor oncall are treated a different way than people who do not. And they should be aware of that when sort of regailing the public who do not have that kind of access. To be clear you were the lead researcher in the study on the drug and the results showed that there was no correct me if im wrong. There was no statistically significant difference between the people who took the drug and those who did not in coronavirus infections. There was a higher incidence of cardiac events, heart attacks, other, i guess a cardiac events with people who were taking hydroxychloroquine, is that correct . Thats right. So, we did an observational study, not a randomized control trial, but an observation at study of a little over 1400 patients from 25 different hospitals in the new york city metropolitan region. And we looked at to what extent physicians used hydroxychloroquine with or without a azithromycin and what effect that had on inhospital deaths and abnormal heart rig rhythms and cardiac arrest. Youre right, anderson, we didnt find a statistically significant benefit in terms of death rate or abnormal heart rhythms. When we looked at hydroxychloroquine plus a azithromycin on cardiac arrest, what we saw was a statistically significantly elevated level. So thats an area of important concern to keep in mind. And just, you know, overall, look, you were on when the study was first announced. There was not an ounce of political glee or anything in your voice and your presentation about the results of this study. President saying this has an antitrump study. When you hear that, i mean, i hesitate to even ask you this question because it seems insulting because you are a professional. But i have to ask you, is there any was there any animus toward President Trump or did that even enter your mind when doing this study . No, not at all. And i think that when anyone goes into a treatment study, given the severity of covid19 as a disease, given the scope of this pandemic, everyone who is doing research looking at different treatments hopes those treatments work. You go into these this line of work hoping that one could find some medications, some vaccines that are going to alleviate human suffering and save lives. If anything, it would be great to be able to come on your show and say if people took these two pills, they would be doing much better and have recovered. But when we look at this literature, thats not what we see so far in terms of treatment. Its important to see additional studies on prevention. But rather, its our responsibility as researchers to come and tell what the data said and to give the complete picture and the complete truth. And what we can do is not only report on that, but to subject our findings to really intensive peer review. And i think journals like journal of medical association, new england journal of medicine, its really important because theyre subjecting those papers to very careful peer review. And we have to be complete and honest in what we find in those studies. And when we published our paper we included many supplementary tables to be as open as we could. Youre right in your summary, anderson. I appreciate all that you do and i appreciate the way you do it. Thank you very much for being with us. Joining us now is cnn chief medical correspondent sanjay gupta, cardiologist erik topol, founder of the Scripps Ranch institute. And gloria borger. You heard what david said and what President Trump said. How do you square those two things . Well, i think that everything the doctor said is backed up by all the studies now. Theres 13 studies, three randomized trials. Theres no sign of any efficacy and there is a sign of significant hazard. So, across the spectrum of people with mild symptoms or the most severe symptoms, there is no benefit of hydroxychloroquine with or without a azithromycin. So i think the data he just reviewed, and you framed it so well, is really in keeping with a drug that doesnt work in the settings that i just reviewed. And now were taking it to an even worse extreme, which is as a preventive therapy that hasnt been assessed. And no less, we dont even know the dose, the doses in those various trials i just mentioned, are all over the place. So there are so many unknowns, but the main signal is risk and its serious. Its heart arrhythmias and potential for fatal event. Sanjay, this is medical guidance being changed and distorted not only by the president but now reinforced by members of his own cabinet all because he just decided to do in and not back down from it. And i guess now he sees a political benefit in sort of being, you know, this adds to his belief or his attempts to show that hes the tough guy, the powerful guy who thumbs his nose at conventional wisdom, blah, blah, blah, that sort of thing. But the idea that were now in an environment where even science, you know, which is fact based and rigorous and, you know, even people who do these studies point out the flaws in their own studies, that it was you heard from the previous guest saying, yes, this study is not pier reviewed. We need peer review. It seems like now everything, the whole idea of President Trump is to destroy every institution, question every institution and put elements of doubt into everything so that truth doesnt there is no truth any more. Its all just who you believe or what you believe. Theres nothing that is a fact. And yet that is there are facts and there is truth. I mean, its really scary, anderson, especially when you describe it like that. There is no truth. I mean, is that the world in which were now living . Luckily i think as a medical science reporter, ive always had the luxury of being able to hold up data and facts and science and wrap it up in some sort of logic for people. People dont always listen. I get that. But the idea that somehow theres competing interests and, therefore, things can be gained in that way. Maybe im here to say thats not the case despite what were hearing from the white house, that these are bad scientists because they gave a result that he didnt like. You know, science is not perfect. It keeps evolving. Thats why we do studies and make the studies bigger and prospective and randomized and all the things we need to do. But with regard to hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, i think, you know, the data is becoming increasingly clear. Again, you heard the caveats. But the idea it doesnt help, might hurt, is a real concern as a treatment. The idea around prophylaxis, you know, giving it preventively, we dont know, there is no evidence to show that works as dr. Topol was saying. Those studies are still ongoing. Look, anderson, i would love it if there was a prophylactic like that that was low side effects or no side effects and could help people from getting this infection. We dont know that yet. And there is a harm when people are starting to hoard this and other people not able to get it as a result. One thing im worried about, and this is something i spoke to dr. Reiner about not that long ago, does the white house know something that we dont know . Is the White House Acting on information that is not being shared with the public . Theyre really going deep into this hydroxychloroquine as a preventive. It doesnt make sense. Its likely that he had some sort of exposure, the president , theyre worried about it. But if there is information or data that they somehow have come across that is not being shared with the public, that would be deeply concerning and unethical because obviously the public deserves to know that kind of information. Were in that sort of situation now where every bit of information matters. Are they hearing something that we dont know . Thats something were trying to dig into. Yeah, just the flip side of that coin is chances are, no, there is not any secret information that they have. Its that the people who the president talks to on the phone have said, oh, im hearing great things about this hydroxything. My doctor tells me to do t im going to do it. And then folks on other networks have secret meetings with their people with the president and tell anecdotal stories about people who rise like lazarus from taking this, and the president listens and that is what influences. Gloria, weve seen time and time again hes influenced by the last person who left the room that he was alone with who happened to put an idea in his head. Totally anecdotal evidence, if you want to call it evidence. I mean, i think what were seeing here really and you touched on this before in your question of sanjay is that its really political right now. I mean, you know, this question of hydroxychloroquine has become sort of the new marker in the culture war. Just like wearing a mask in a way has unfortunately become a marker in the culture war. Do you believe its okay to take hydroxychloroquine or for the president to take it . Do you think it might in some crazy way be preventive, which as sanjay says nobody has proven at all. Do you think the president is doing the right thing . And i remember back during the 2016 election the president always talked about the potential for an election to be rigged. Thats a favorite word of his. Now what hes saying is the science is rigged. The scientists are rigged. This is an enemy statement, this academic study, and that anybody who disagrees with him on this question of hydroxychloroquine is because they are an enemy of his and they dont like him. So the signal to the american public, then, is dont believe the science . Dont believe what the scientists are telling you, believe me because i have your best interest at heart. Yeah, lets just be real about this. Lets look at the time line on this. The president suddenly discovers his valet has coronavirus, so he is upset by that. And because suddenly it is in his world and it affects him, suddenly everybody in the white house has to wear a mask. Everybody in the white house has to get tested all the time or should be tested all the time. And