Transcripts For CNNW CNN Newsroom With Poppy Harlow And Jim

CNNW CNN Newsroom With Poppy Harlow And Jim Sciutto January 24, 2020

The president clearly not happy with the saturday start for his legal team. So where do we start . With cnn congressional reporter lauren fox here on capitol hill this morning. And this is a crucial day for democrats. Their last day to make the case, not just to the American Public but their colleagues on the removal of office of the president unlikely but still calling witnesses. And thats been the democrats focus this entire time. They have to convince those four moderate republicans to cross the aisle and vote with them on witnesses. And that is getting more and more difficult. What weve heard from some of those moderates is that, look, if the House Democrats didnt want to go to court and fight for these witnesses, why should we as part of the senate trial . And thats the argument that Majority Leader Mitch Mcconnell is making to his conference behind closed doors. I also know that republicans are struggling a little bit with the fact that this has been walltowall democratic coverage over the last three days. Now we know thats going to shift tomorrow, on saturday, when the president s defense team begins to make their case. What happened yesterday during the republican lunch was leadership actually encouraged their members, go out, talk to the cameras. Go talk to the press. Thats getting tougher because there are so many restrictions about where we can go, who we can talk to. We cant walk and talk with members like we normally would. Thats why majority leader mcconnell made the case yesterday. You need to go out during these breaks and make sure youre pumping up the president. Maybe that the republican strategy there backfired. They were deliberately restricting your access and now going the other way, poppy. Of course, i want to bring now cnn legal analyst elie honig on what democrats will be arguing today. So elie, listen, weve heard a lot of arguments from them. This is really their final day focused on obstruction but also making their Closing Argument. Yeah, jim, youre right. So lets remember, there are two articles of impeachment in play here. Yesterday democrats focused on abuse of power relating to ukraine. Today theyre shifting to article 2, the obstruction of congress. So what exactly does that mean . Now when the House Democrats began investigating donald trump related to ukraine about four months ago in september of 2019, they served 71 subpoenas on the executive branch. A subpoena is just a formal legal command to produce evidence or testimony. They served subpoenas on the white house, the Vice President s office, the omb, the departments of defense and state. You know how many documents they got from the executive branch total . Zero. Not a single one. Democrats say this is because of an intentional stonewalling effort by donald trump. How do we know this came from donald trump . He told us. Lets take a listen well, were fighting all the subpoenas. Look, these arent like impartial people. So the key here, right, is convincing folks not just that there was this was inappropriate behavior by the president but its an impeachable behavior by the president. Tell us how they make that argument. So House Democrats are making two arguments as to why this is impeachable. First of all, theyre saying a president could hide his own wrongdoing to prevent congress from discovering impeachable misconduct. They can use it to hide the truth. And second, they say it nullifies Congress Impeachment power. Impeachment is one of the most important checks congress has on the executive branch. And if the executive branch, the president , can just squash evidence, then it takes away that power. Now republicans are going to fight this. And they write in their defense brief that the president does not commit obstruction by asserting legal rights and privileges. Yes, you serve subpoenas but we have the right to fight those subpoenas in court. It almost never wins. Judges almost always uphold subpoenas, but that is going to be the republican defense here, jim. In effect saying, you know, let the courts decide, are they not . Exactly. Exactly what theyre saying. What the democrats say in response is, in the history of the republic, no president has ever ordered the complete defiance of an impeachment inquiry. They are saying this is unprecedented. In fact, theyre correct. If you look even at Richard Nixon, the house served a whole bunch of subpoenas on nixons administration. He blocked some of them, but he actually did comply with others. So nixon actually gave more than donald trump has here. And Richard Nixon faced an article of impeachment that went through the House Judiciary Committee charging him with this very same obstruction of justice. Of course, he resigned before full impeachment. And adam schiff has talken pains over the last few days to stress just how damaging this obstructionism has been. Listen to some of the arguments adam schiff has been making. Would you like me to read that to you right now . I would like to read it to you right now. Except i dont have it. Because the state department wouldnt provide it. But if youd like me to read it to you, we can do something about that. So, jim, thats the point. The bottom line point adam schiff is making. The truth is out there. They have it, and we dont. You heard the president even seeming to brag about that the other day in answer to a question. Elie honig, thank you. Joining us to talk about this is elizabeth holtzman, a member of the House Judiciary Committee during watergate. So nice to have your perspective. Take a look at this. We have a picture of you during watergate, if we can pull it up. A much different time, of course. I had longer hair. What do you think . Look at that. You havent aged a day. What is the chief difference between now and then. And has anything stayed the same . Well, some of the things that stayed the same, you have article 3 that was voted against Richard Nixon because he obstructed the House Judiciary Committee and said im not turning over these tapes. Ultimately, they came out because the special prosecutor sued for those tapes. But we did the same thing. We said we have a right to obtain these documents, to understand, to what the president did. And he refused to obey. Wasnt one of the chief differences then that i just cant see happening now, but who knows what tomorrow will bring, that you had that day. You had the moment, the legendary moment, barry goldwater, a republican nominee for president , going to the white house with a few other colleagues and basically saying, the gig is up. The game is up. The votes are there to remove you from office. I mean, there is nothing that appears to be similar to that this time around. But it didnt start that way with watergate. No. It took months and months for the evidence to pile up to get goldwater and the other republicans to that point. Could that happen here . It could happen if they get witnesses and they get documents because what we had bipartisan majority, seven republicans, all the democrats, including some of the democrats to support impeachment, three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon, including his failure to produce documents. But when the smoking gun tape came out, everybody said this is the end of nixon. And thats why he had to resign. There could be a witness or a document thats going to be the smoking gun. And that would force the resignation of donald trump. The way it did then. But without these documents, i think they have a compelling case. I saw the presentation. I was very impressed. But there are documents that, obviously, we dont have, and the people closest to the president could clearly explain what was in his mind and what he did. When did he know it . What did he do . Why did he do it . The key republican, even more than frankly susan collins, that many of vus been watching is seniority Lisa Murkowski. Shes one who has not always gone with the president. Just take the kavanaugh vote, for example, a moderate. This is what she said yesterday, and its different in tone. The house made a decision that they didnt want to slow things down by having to go through the courts. And yet now, they are basically saying, you guys got to go through the courts. Meaning the senate. We didnt, but you guys need to. If democrats lose murkowski as a possible vote to side with them on calling witnesses, have they lost the war over witnesses . Well, maybe. But go back to the history. Thats what i was trying to say. Go back to the history. House Judiciary Committee did not go to court and nobody said to us, oh, bad, bad, bad. You should have gone to court. So were not going to look at the smoking gun tape. Were not going to consider these other tapes. Absolutely not. We didnt go to court because peter odino, the chair, said courts have no business involving themselves in an impeachment process. Whether you agree with that position or not, theres no question that if the house had gone to the courts, we would still not have a resolution of this matter. Don mcgahns subpoena hasnt been resolved. So if you want to have an impeachment process that works, then this has to be done in a proper way. 30 seconds left. We heard adam schiff, one of the house managers, say yesterday, quote, you know you cant trust this president to do whats right for this country. Is he misreading the audience . For example, look at how many republicans are thrilled with what hes done on nominating judges. The audience is the American People in the end. And the American People, i hope, will be fair and understand the need for a fair trial and the complete truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Elizabeth holtzman, great perspective. Have a nice weekend. Jim . We are live from capitol hill this morning with all the latest on the president s impeachment trial. Coming up next, im going to speak to one of those jurors. One of the senators who will decide whether to acquit or remove the president. If you have moderate to severe psoriasis, Little Things can be a big deal. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not a cream. Its a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. 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Dont get mad get e trade and start trading for bathroom odors that linger try febreze small spaces. Just press firmly and it continuously eliminates odors in the air and on soft surfaces. For 45 days. Welcome back. Were live from capitol hill. Democrats with one final day to make their case to the American People to fellow senators, including republicans before the White House Team takes over tomorrow, on saturday. Im joined by massachusetts democratic senator ed markey. He also serves on the Foreign Relations committee. We appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. So the emerging argument from republicans behind closed doors but also in public is that to call witnesses would somehow challenge executive privilege, weaken the office of the president for some time to come. Whats your response to that argument . Well, my answer would be that the president would then say you cant investigate me. You cant indict me. You cant impeach me. That im immune. That i can do whatever i want. And that the congress is powerless. No matter how great the abuse of power that i engage in as a president , cannot, in fact, be called into question by the United States congress which, of course, is a complete and total upside down interpretation of the United States constitution. We are supposed to be the checkup on him. We are the ones who are to ensure hes not a monarch, that he cannot act in a way that is not accountable to the American People. Its a crazy argument. Its an ahistorical argument, and its one that were going to continue to contest extremely vigorously. You hear, and ive heard some of this from republicans in private crucially, not in public, that the president s behavior here, yes, inappropriate. I wouldnt have done it. I wish he hadnt done it. But does not rise to the level of being an impeachable offense. I wonder what you say to your republican colleagues when they make that argument. I guess the question to them is, if this is not impeachable, what is impeachable . If somebody as a president goes to a Foreign Government and says that i want you to investigate my political rival, my principal political rival at that time, in return for 391 million of american taxpayer money, and thats not impeachable, then nothing is impeachable. I mean, absolutely nothing. And no president could ever be held accountable. Ultimately this sets a precedent for the future. All president s, henceworth and forever, if the republicans do not make trump accountable, will have pretty much carte blanche. Theyll be able to do whatever they want because the standard for impeachability will have been eliminated. The score of this argument by democrats, right, is not just that the president pressured a Foreign Government to investigate a political rival. But also pressured a Foreign Government in effect to interfere in a u. S. Election. It strikes me that as this is happening, even as the president is being tried on this allegation, his personal attorney is still going to ukraine. Hes still meeting with shady folks over there, gathering information on biden. Are you concerned that the president , perhaps emboldened, is still attempting to get a Foreign Government to interfere . Absolutely. I mean, what adam schiff and the house managers laid out was a blistering, scalding indictment of donald trump, of rudy giuliani, of all of his political henchmen to try to steal the election of 2020. Theres no question about it. And if hes allowed to go sco scotfree here, then we should just expect there are no rules. That giuliani will be overseas, that it will be something that emboldens him to go even further in terms of breaking of the traditions in our country because the republicans will say there are no rules. You can do whatever you want and im afraid for what that means this year. The russians will be able to feel more freedom to come into our elections and to interfere with them. So i just think that what the republicans decide to do in terms of allowing the senate to hear from Mick Mulvaney, from john bolton, from the other witnesses, the other documents is going to be the moment of accountability for an entire traditionally respected party to determine whether or not they want to ensure that our elections are free and fair. It would be difficult to pick the least polite moment in this whole process but there was a particularly impolite one yesterday when one of your republican colleagues, senator Marsha Blackburn, took a very pointed attack on Alexander Vindman who testified in the house impeachment. A serving u. S. Army officer. A purple heart honoree from his time in iraq. I dont need to quote her tweet again, but it was a very personal attack questioning his patriotism. What do you say to your colleague Marsha Blackburn . Well, no matter which country our forbearers come from mine are irish once youre here, youre an american. Once you swear an oath to our country, youre an american. And otherwise, every one of us is subject to question with regard to our patriotism. So this man and apparently every member of his family that was born here in the United States that was raised here in the United States, served in our military. There arent many families which can say that. His father is giving him instruction that he lives in a special country and asked and telling him that he should be proud to be able to serve in a country where you can speak up without fear that the government can, in fact, suppress you. So any impugning of the reputation, the honor, the dignity, the patriotism of vindman or anyone else who comes from another country but then pledges loyalty to our country is absolutely wrong. Senator markey, appreciate the time and look forward to hearing from you after the proceedings end. Take care. 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