Transcripts For CNNW CNN Tonight With Don Lemon 20180502 : v

Name is dr. Harold bornstein, remember him . He has resurfaced. He tells cnn that glowing letter he wrote about then candidate trump calling him the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency was actually dictated by trump himself. I know, surprise, right . And then dr. Bornstein also tells cnn he was, his words, robbed when trumps former bodyguard and two other men came to his office to get the president s medical records more than a year ago. And then there is kanye west, doubling down on his support for his new bff. I just love trump. Thats my boy. And making what may be his most shocking claim of all. You hear about slavery for 400 years. For 400 years . That sounds like a choice. Like, you were there for 400 years and its all of yall . You know, like, its like were mentally imprisoned. So, to be clear, and i cant believe that i actually need to say this, black and brown people who were enslaved for centuries had absolutely no choice. They werent just mentally enslaved. This wasnt some kind of mind game. They were in real chains. Kanye has a lot more to say about this tonight. You dont want to miss it. Were going to get to that in just a few minutes, though. First, i want to bring in cnns chief political analyst and garrett graff, author of the threat matrix. Thank you all for joining us. Good evening. Gloria, im going to start with you. Break down your new reporting for us. President trumps legal team preparing for a showdown with Robert Mueller. Thats right. Even perez, pamela brown and i are reporting they are thinking theyre now going to face a potential subpoena from the special counsel. Weve reported, the Washington Post first reported it this evening, that there was at least one meeting with the special counsel and his then attorney john dowd in which the special counsel raised the potential of a subpoena and john dowd got very angry about it. And now the legal team understands that theyve got a president who is angry after the Michael Cohen raid, who went from, yes, id like to testify to, no, im not going to testify. They have new members of their legal team who have to get sort of read in and caught up. So theyre not making any blanket predictions here about what will occur, but they do believe that its very possible that they will get a subpoena and that they would fight it if they got one all the way to the supreme court. Okay, gloria, youre also reporting that mueller himself has raised the idea of subpoenaing the president. So have the talks broken down with mueller . Well, i think what we can say is that the talks are in a lull, which would be a nice way to put it. What was interesting about all of this was the morning of the Michael Cohen raid, the president s attorneys were sitting together in a room preparing a kind of a deal that they could strike with the special counsel about trump testifying on russia. Then they looked at their tv and they saw the news of the Michael Cohen raid and they said, wait a minute, we are not going to go into this meeting with any kind of a proposal for president ial interview, and instead they had kind of a tense little meeting with the special counsel that afternoon and nothing occurred and nothing has really occurred since. We know Rudy Giuliani has met with them and there is a new team of lawyers, so at this point i would just have to say its in a bit of a lull. One more question, couldnt the president just plead the fifth, gloria . Well, remember on the campaign trail when donald trump said that anybody who pleads the fifth is guilty . Yep. I think that would be a bit of a problem for him, but in talking to his legal team about this, what they are saying is that is that, look, there are so many constitutional issues that they believe that would have to be addressed before that that they are not even thinking about that possibility at this point. Okay. Jack, im going to bring you in now. Can be game out how this would play here . Lets assume that President Trump refuses to sit down voluntarily for an interview and mueller decides to issue that subpoena. Then there is a giant legal battle that works its way through the courts. Jeffrey toobin, Alan Dershowitz both say the president would ultimately lose. Do you agree with that . Absolutely. And i think, by the way, you know, the position of john dowd and others that they have a fighting chance of prevailing in the courts on that issue, i think thats just folly. I mean, look, president clinton had to testify in a civil suit. The paula jones Sexual Harassment suit. As important as that piece of litigation might have been, civil suits in the scheme of things are not quite as important as enforcement of the criminal laws. Got it. This case is about enforcing the criminal laws. There is there is no possible way that the president would be f free from providing evidence in a case like that. The question is, jack, why not cooperate now under better circumstances . Well, why not cooperate . I mean, look, ive published an article oped in the Washington Post a couple of months ago saying that it would be not only in the interest of the country, in the interest of the proceeding, but in the president s own interests to cooperate and submit to an interview. Yeah. Now, i have seen him go off on a few of the issues involved here, and i understand that he might be intemperate at times. On the other hand, people who have been party to his participation in depositions assert that he can keep control of himself. You know, i mean, look, it does seem to me that there is a good argument for him to cooperate if he really has something to hide and wants to just string this out, he can take that route, but i do think that the courts will not support him and that eventually he will be required to provide evidence. So, gloria, im going to get you to you in the next question, but let me bring garrett in for this one now. I need him to participate in this. Do you think the president , garrett, and his team are banking that they can end the investigation in some way before any of this happens . Well, i think what weve seen over the last couple of weeks is that this investigation has progressed rather rapidly. I mean, that Michael Cohen raid really did change the stakes of the investigation and sort of what we think might be under the umbrella of the questions that the president might end up facing. So i think, you know, jay sekulow and the other lawyers involved in this thought that they were facing a very different landscape a couple of weeks ago when there was a much more open consideration of whether the president would end up testifying. The president , from everything that we know, wants very much to testify. I mean, i think that in some ways the president really thinks if he can just sit down on the other side of the table with Robert Mueller, you know, he can negotiate this investigation away, just like another new York Real Estate deal, you know . Its not a new York Real Estate deal, and everyone but the president seems to be very clear about the legal jeopardy that the president would be in the moment that he sits down. I mean, you ask about whether the president would take the fifth. This is a president who could take the fifth any single day that he wants to and instead he wakes up every morning angry on twitter. This is a president who is like exhibit number one in how your words can and will be used against you. Gloria, i know you want to jump in now. Is that how garrett is that how trumps legal team, is that how they see it . Well, look, i think if trump is your client youre worried hes going to talk too much. When you look at those questions, which, by the way, were notes of one of the attorneys of what bob mueller was saying might be asked when you look at those when you look at those questions, theyre very detail and they do go into issues of collusion. They do go into issues of conspiracy or obstruction. And i think there is a lot of worry among the president s attorneys that this is something where he could do himself some damage. And they intend to use article ii of the constitution, as jack well knows, to say that, you know, that they are not allowed to question the president about what he is entitled to do as president of the United States. And so theyre going to use theyre going to use that argument. I mean, they may lose, but its an argument they are going to make and they have a client who was willing to testify. And if they could have narrowed it down to what to a great degree, i think they would have left him. Yeah. But now you look at everything and its so broad, it seems much more likely theyll wind up without him testifying. Again, though, one caveat, they do have these new attorneys. The husband and wife team of the raskins and of course Rudy Giuliani. Well have to see where they wind up. Jack, look, the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein responding to reports that articles of impeachment were drafted against him by the conservative House Freedom caucus. And he had this broader message to the folks making threats against him that the doj will not be extorted. Do you think that hes talking about the president there . Well, i dont i dont want to make that conclusion i dont want to jump to that conclusion. I think he was saying were going to keep our heads down. Were going to keep doing our jobs. Were going to do it properly. Okay. And were not going to be bullied. What do you think, gloria . Do you think hes talking about the president . You know, i wouldnt read too much into Rod Rosenstein. I mean, i spoke with one of his friends the other day who said, if you scratch the surface, you still get the surface. And so i think hes kind of one of these people who answers the exact question he was asked. So i really which is nice. Really wouldnt read too much into it. Garrett, what do you think, though . Is he talking about the president . I think i dont know whether hes talking about the president specifically. Hes certainly talking about the echo chamber of the president s allies who are, as Rod Rosenstein himself said today, sort of attacking him publicly and privately. Mmmhmm. I mean, the level of attack that he has come under from congress for sort of trying to do his job as best he can is sort of unprecedented from a partisan perspective at this point. All right. Thank you all. I got to run. See you next time. When we come back, more on our breaking news. A showdown looking very likely, possibly, between the Trump Legal Team and the special counsels office. Over 5 million americans signed our petition to impeach this president. This is not about political parties. We all understand that this president would be replaced by another republican. This is much bigger than washington politics. Its about the safety and security of our country. No one is above the law. Join us at needtoimpeach. Com. Lets Tell Congress that if they wont do something, well elect new representatives who will. I am totally blind. And non24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442142424. I knew at that exact moment. Im beating this. My main focus was to find a team of doctors. Its not just picking a surgeon, its picking the care team and feeling secure in where you are. Visit cancercenter. Com breast. We have news tonight on Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein. He was been targeted by a furious furious President Trump for weeks. Now he is fighting back against anyone who may be after his job. There have been people who have been making threats, privately and publicly, against me for quite some time. I think they should understand by now the department of justice is not going to be extorted. Lets bring in former u. S. Attorney guy lewis and susan hennessy. Good evening to both of you. So glad to have you on. Guy, you just heard the Deputy Attorney general there. He says hes not going to be extorted. You know rosenstein well. What do you make of these comments . I take them absolutely at his word. Rods been through a lot in the department of justice. He is born and bred a prosecutor. He was u. S. Attorney. In fact, one of the longest serving u. S. Attorneys, don, up in baltimore, maryland, which is no easy district to manage, sort of like miami and new york. Hes done well up there. Hes served three president s during that tenure. So i take him at his word when he says, look, back off, im not going to be extorted. Guy, do you think he was trying to send a message here to anyone else . What do you think . Well, don, i think he was speaking directly to these sort of mickey mouse articles of impeachment. You know, when i first looked at that, i kind of laughed and blew it off, but then i went and looked and, indeed, rod may be subject to impeachment. Im not saying he would ever be impeached in a million years, but article ii lists the president , the Vice President and other civil servants, and then i look at some of the charges in the past that civil servants, mainly judges and senator and some others have been impeached for, drunkness, conspiracy oddly enough, the very first impeachment of a senator from tennessee, my home state, guess what they impeached him for . The house impeached him for conspiracy with a foreign power. In that case, Great Britain over some land in louisiana. Go figure. So, susan, the president the president s been battling the leadership of his own Justice Department and the fbi for some time now. Many of his surrogates are referring to Rod Rosenstein and mueller as his underlings now. What is the reality and how is this going to play out, you think . Well, in some technical sense, this is accurate, right . Rod rosenstein works for the executive branch. The president is the head of the executive branch. What sort of referring to the Justice Department officials as the president s underlings misses is a sense of sort of the normative protections. An independent Law Enforcement. An independent department of justice. Thats something that despite a lot of pushback over the last, you know, year and a half of the trump presidency, the president really hasnt been able to understand why those norms exist, you know, why he should respect them and why at the end of the day it is to his political benefit to do so. So just last week, susan, the president said this. Watch. And you look at the corruption at the top of the fbi, its a disgrace. And our Justice Department, which i try and stay away from, but at some point i wont. Every time the president makes comments like these, is he giving mueller more ammunition for an obstruction case . So i dont know that that directly speaks to sort of the obstruction issue. In a larger sense, i do think that it galvanizes congress, it galvanizes individuals within the Justice Department to really want to stand as firmly as possible in those institutional protections. So, you know, i dont know that he would be that there is any sort of argument that there is an investigation that hes trying to sort of sidetrack with those types of comments, it is sort of a bizarre strategy. Because at the end of the day what we see are speeches exactly like the one Rod Rosenstein gave today. Justice Department Officials sort of standing up and saying, look, you know, we stand for these principles. Were going to continue to put our nose to the grindstone and essentially were not afraid of you. Guy, the White House Press secretary Sarah Sanders was asked about the impeachment moves today. Take a listen. There are some allies of the president up on capitol hill apparently drafting articles of impeachment for the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein. Is it the president s belief that Rod Rosenstein has either committed a high crime or a misdemeanor . Im not aware of any belief of that . Would the white house call on these members not to pursue that . I havent seen the specific document but we dont have any personnel announcements. Were continuing to move forward with the department of justice. So do you think the white house has a full appreciation of what will happen if rosenstein or mueller or fired . Thats a good question, don. I sometimes wonder sort of about the strategy that coming out of the white house. I think it would be a great mistake to fire or try to fire bob mueller or Rod Rosenstein. Theyre both good guys. Whether you agree or disagree with the special counsel appointment, whether you agree or disagree with the sort of pervasive and now really broad, based on the questions we saw today, don, really broad investigation of trump and some of the other issues that muellers looking at. Whether you agree with one or the other, big mistake to fire those prosecutors. Also, susan, today Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein was asked if a sitting president could be indicted. Here is how he responded. Im not going to answer this in the context of any current matters, so you shouldnt draw any inference about it, but the department of justice has in the past when the issue arose as opined that a sitting president cannot be indicted. Theres been a lot of speculation in the media about this. I dont have anything more to say about it. Thats when the issue arose, somebody in the department reached the legal conclusion and thats what it is. So is he right, susan . Could that change . Is an indictment for Robert Mueller<\/a>. Thats right. Even perez, pamela brown and i are reporting they are thinking theyre now going to face a potential subpoena from the special counsel. Weve reported, the Washington Post<\/a> first reported it this evening, that there was at least one meeting with the special counsel and his then attorney john dowd in which the special counsel raised the potential of a subpoena and john dowd got very angry about it. And now the legal team understands that theyve got a president who is angry after the Michael Cohen<\/a> raid, who went from, yes, id like to testify to, no, im not going to testify. They have new members of their legal team who have to get sort of read in and caught up. So theyre not making any blanket predictions here about what will occur, but they do believe that its very possible that they will get a subpoena and that they would fight it if they got one all the way to the supreme court. Okay, gloria, youre also reporting that mueller himself has raised the idea of subpoenaing the president. So have the talks broken down with mueller . Well, i think what we can say is that the talks are in a lull, which would be a nice way to put it. What was interesting about all of this was the morning of the Michael Cohen<\/a> raid, the president s attorneys were sitting together in a room preparing a kind of a deal that they could strike with the special counsel about trump testifying on russia. Then they looked at their tv and they saw the news of the Michael Cohen<\/a> raid and they said, wait a minute, we are not going to go into this meeting with any kind of a proposal for president ial interview, and instead they had kind of a tense little meeting with the special counsel that afternoon and nothing occurred and nothing has really occurred since. We know Rudy Giuliani<\/a> has met with them and there is a new team of lawyers, so at this point i would just have to say its in a bit of a lull. One more question, couldnt the president just plead the fifth, gloria . Well, remember on the campaign trail when donald trump said that anybody who pleads the fifth is guilty . Yep. I think that would be a bit of a problem for him, but in talking to his legal team about this, what they are saying is that is that, look, there are so many constitutional issues that they believe that would have to be addressed before that that they are not even thinking about that possibility at this point. Okay. Jack, im going to bring you in now. Can be game out how this would play here . Lets assume that President Trump<\/a> refuses to sit down voluntarily for an interview and mueller decides to issue that subpoena. Then there is a giant legal battle that works its way through the courts. Jeffrey toobin, Alan Dershowitz<\/a> both say the president would ultimately lose. Do you agree with that . Absolutely. And i think, by the way, you know, the position of john dowd and others that they have a fighting chance of prevailing in the courts on that issue, i think thats just folly. I mean, look, president clinton had to testify in a civil suit. The paula jones Sexual Harassment<\/a> suit. As important as that piece of litigation might have been, civil suits in the scheme of things are not quite as important as enforcement of the criminal laws. Got it. This case is about enforcing the criminal laws. There is there is no possible way that the president would be f free from providing evidence in a case like that. The question is, jack, why not cooperate now under better circumstances . Well, why not cooperate . I mean, look, ive published an article oped in the Washington Post<\/a> a couple of months ago saying that it would be not only in the interest of the country, in the interest of the proceeding, but in the president s own interests to cooperate and submit to an interview. Yeah. Now, i have seen him go off on a few of the issues involved here, and i understand that he might be intemperate at times. On the other hand, people who have been party to his participation in depositions assert that he can keep control of himself. You know, i mean, look, it does seem to me that there is a good argument for him to cooperate if he really has something to hide and wants to just string this out, he can take that route, but i do think that the courts will not support him and that eventually he will be required to provide evidence. So, gloria, im going to get you to you in the next question, but let me bring garrett in for this one now. I need him to participate in this. Do you think the president , garrett, and his team are banking that they can end the investigation in some way before any of this happens . Well, i think what weve seen over the last couple of weeks is that this investigation has progressed rather rapidly. I mean, that Michael Cohen<\/a> raid really did change the stakes of the investigation and sort of what we think might be under the umbrella of the questions that the president might end up facing. So i think, you know, jay sekulow and the other lawyers involved in this thought that they were facing a very different landscape a couple of weeks ago when there was a much more open consideration of whether the president would end up testifying. The president , from everything that we know, wants very much to testify. I mean, i think that in some ways the president really thinks if he can just sit down on the other side of the table with Robert Mueller<\/a>, you know, he can negotiate this investigation away, just like another new York Real Estate<\/a> deal, you know . Its not a new York Real Estate<\/a> deal, and everyone but the president seems to be very clear about the legal jeopardy that the president would be in the moment that he sits down. I mean, you ask about whether the president would take the fifth. This is a president who could take the fifth any single day that he wants to and instead he wakes up every morning angry on twitter. This is a president who is like exhibit number one in how your words can and will be used against you. Gloria, i know you want to jump in now. Is that how garrett is that how trumps legal team, is that how they see it . Well, look, i think if trump is your client youre worried hes going to talk too much. When you look at those questions, which, by the way, were notes of one of the attorneys of what bob mueller was saying might be asked when you look at those when you look at those questions, theyre very detail and they do go into issues of collusion. They do go into issues of conspiracy or obstruction. And i think there is a lot of worry among the president s attorneys that this is something where he could do himself some damage. And they intend to use article ii of the constitution, as jack well knows, to say that, you know, that they are not allowed to question the president about what he is entitled to do as president of the United States<\/a>. And so theyre going to use theyre going to use that argument. I mean, they may lose, but its an argument they are going to make and they have a client who was willing to testify. And if they could have narrowed it down to what to a great degree, i think they would have left him. Yeah. But now you look at everything and its so broad, it seems much more likely theyll wind up without him testifying. Again, though, one caveat, they do have these new attorneys. The husband and wife team of the raskins and of course Rudy Giuliani<\/a>. Well have to see where they wind up. Jack, look, the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general Rod Rosenstein<\/a> responding to reports that articles of impeachment were drafted against him by the conservative House Freedom<\/a> caucus. And he had this broader message to the folks making threats against him that the doj will not be extorted. Do you think that hes talking about the president there . Well, i dont i dont want to make that conclusion i dont want to jump to that conclusion. I think he was saying were going to keep our heads down. Were going to keep doing our jobs. Were going to do it properly. Okay. And were not going to be bullied. What do you think, gloria . Do you think hes talking about the president . You know, i wouldnt read too much into Rod Rosenstein<\/a>. I mean, i spoke with one of his friends the other day who said, if you scratch the surface, you still get the surface. And so i think hes kind of one of these people who answers the exact question he was asked. So i really which is nice. Really wouldnt read too much into it. Garrett, what do you think, though . Is he talking about the president . I think i dont know whether hes talking about the president specifically. Hes certainly talking about the echo chamber of the president s allies who are, as Rod Rosenstein<\/a> himself said today, sort of attacking him publicly and privately. Mmmhmm. I mean, the level of attack that he has come under from congress for sort of trying to do his job as best he can is sort of unprecedented from a partisan perspective at this point. All right. Thank you all. I got to run. See you next time. When we come back, more on our breaking news. A showdown looking very likely, possibly, between the Trump Legal Team<\/a> and the special counsels office. Over 5 million americans signed our petition to impeach this president. This is not about political parties. We all understand that this president would be replaced by another republican. This is much bigger than washington politics. Its about the safety and security of our country. No one is above the law. Join us at needtoimpeach. Com. Lets Tell Congress<\/a> that if they wont do something, well elect new representatives who will. I am totally blind. And non24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442142424. I knew at that exact moment. Im beating this. My main focus was to find a team of doctors. Its not just picking a surgeon, its picking the care team and feeling secure in where you are. Visit cancercenter. Com breast. We have news tonight on Deputy Attorney<\/a> general Rod Rosenstein<\/a>. He was been targeted by a furious furious President Trump<\/a> for weeks. Now he is fighting back against anyone who may be after his job. There have been people who have been making threats, privately and publicly, against me for quite some time. I think they should understand by now the department of justice is not going to be extorted. Lets bring in former u. S. Attorney guy lewis and susan hennessy. Good evening to both of you. So glad to have you on. Guy, you just heard the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general there. He says hes not going to be extorted. You know rosenstein well. What do you make of these comments . I take them absolutely at his word. Rods been through a lot in the department of justice. He is born and bred a prosecutor. He was u. S. Attorney. In fact, one of the longest serving u. S. Attorneys, don, up in baltimore, maryland, which is no easy district to manage, sort of like miami and new york. Hes done well up there. Hes served three president s during that tenure. So i take him at his word when he says, look, back off, im not going to be extorted. Guy, do you think he was trying to send a message here to anyone else . What do you think . Well, don, i think he was speaking directly to these sort of mickey mouse articles of impeachment. You know, when i first looked at that, i kind of laughed and blew it off, but then i went and looked and, indeed, rod may be subject to impeachment. Im not saying he would ever be impeached in a million years, but article ii lists the president , the Vice President<\/a> and other civil servants, and then i look at some of the charges in the past that civil servants, mainly judges and senator and some others have been impeached for, drunkness, conspiracy oddly enough, the very first impeachment of a senator from tennessee, my home state, guess what they impeached him for . The house impeached him for conspiracy with a foreign power. In that case, Great Britain<\/a> over some land in louisiana. Go figure. So, susan, the president the president s been battling the leadership of his own Justice Department<\/a> and the fbi for some time now. Many of his surrogates are referring to Rod Rosenstein<\/a> and mueller as his underlings now. What is the reality and how is this going to play out, you think . Well, in some technical sense, this is accurate, right . Rod rosenstein works for the executive branch. The president is the head of the executive branch. What sort of referring to the Justice Department<\/a> officials as the president s underlings misses is a sense of sort of the normative protections. An independent Law Enforcement<\/a>. An independent department of justice. Thats something that despite a lot of pushback over the last, you know, year and a half of the trump presidency, the president really hasnt been able to understand why those norms exist, you know, why he should respect them and why at the end of the day it is to his political benefit to do so. So just last week, susan, the president said this. Watch. And you look at the corruption at the top of the fbi, its a disgrace. And our Justice Department<\/a>, which i try and stay away from, but at some point i wont. Every time the president makes comments like these, is he giving mueller more ammunition for an obstruction case . So i dont know that that directly speaks to sort of the obstruction issue. In a larger sense, i do think that it galvanizes congress, it galvanizes individuals within the Justice Department<\/a> to really want to stand as firmly as possible in those institutional protections. So, you know, i dont know that he would be that there is any sort of argument that there is an investigation that hes trying to sort of sidetrack with those types of comments, it is sort of a bizarre strategy. Because at the end of the day what we see are speeches exactly like the one Rod Rosenstein<\/a> gave today. Justice Department Officials<\/a> sort of standing up and saying, look, you know, we stand for these principles. Were going to continue to put our nose to the grindstone and essentially were not afraid of you. Guy, the White House Press<\/a> secretary Sarah Sanders<\/a> was asked about the impeachment moves today. Take a listen. There are some allies of the president up on capitol hill apparently drafting articles of impeachment for the Deputy Attorney<\/a> general Rod Rosenstein<\/a>. Is it the president s belief that Rod Rosenstein<\/a> has either committed a high crime or a misdemeanor . Im not aware of any belief of that . Would the white house call on these members not to pursue that . I havent seen the specific document but we dont have any personnel announcements. Were continuing to move forward with the department of justice. So do you think the white house has a full appreciation of what will happen if rosenstein or mueller or fired . Thats a good question, don. I sometimes wonder sort of about the strategy that coming out of the white house. I think it would be a great mistake to fire or try to fire bob mueller or Rod Rosenstein<\/a>. Theyre both good guys. Whether you agree or disagree with the special counsel appointment, whether you agree or disagree with the sort of pervasive and now really broad, based on the questions we saw today, don, really broad investigation of trump and some of the other issues that muellers looking at. Whether you agree with one or the other, big mistake to fire those prosecutors. Also, susan, today Deputy Attorney<\/a> general Rod Rosenstein<\/a> was asked if a sitting president could be indicted. Here is how he responded. Im not going to answer this in the context of any current matters, so you shouldnt draw any inference about it, but the department of justice has in the past when the issue arose as opined that a sitting president cannot be indicted. Theres been a lot of speculation in the media about this. I dont have anything more to say about it. Thats when the issue arose, somebody in the department reached the legal conclusion and thats what it is. So is he right, susan . Could that change . Is an indictment for President Trump<\/a> off the table . So rosenstein is referring to two memos authored by the office of legal counsel, one in 1973 and one in 2000. Those opinions are binding on the department of justice unless they are rescinded. Olc could rescind those opinions. No indication that is going to happen. There is some question, i would say its a smaller minority question about whether or not those opinions are binding on the special counsels office. Whether or not Robert Mueller<\/a> would consider himself sort of open to consider for his own purposes whether or not the president could be indicted, sort of put his own legal judgement on that question. You know, at the end of the day, well see what happens. All right. Susan, guy, thank you so much. I appreciate it. When we come back, more on our breaking news tonight. As chances of the president sitting down with Robert Mueller<\/a>s team seem to be getting slimmer, cnn is now learning that the special counsels office could possibly issue a subpoena. How that showdown is shaping up. As a control enthusiast, im allbusiness when i travel. Even when i travel. For leisure. So i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle without starting any conversations or paying any upcharges. What can i say . Control suits me. Go national. Go like a pro. This is a story about mail and packages. And its also a story about people. People who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams theyre handing us more than mail theyre handing us their business and while we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget. That your business is our business the United States<\/a> postal service. Priority you does your Business Internet<\/a> provider promise a lot . Lets see who delivers more. Comcast business gives you gigspeed in more places. The others dont. We offer up to 6 hours of 4g Wireless Network<\/a> backup. Everyone else, no way. We let calls from any of your devices come from your business number. Them, not so much. We let you keep an eye on your business from anywhere. The others . Nope get internet on our gigspeed network and add voice and tv for 34. 90 more per month. Call or go on line today. So heres our breaking news tonight. Sourcing telling cnn that President Trump<\/a>s lawyers are preparing for a legal showdown with Robert Mueller<\/a>, the special counsels team is warning that mueller could subpoena the president , forcing him to appear before a grand jury. Lets discuss now with former u. S. Attorney harry littmann and former white house ethics czar and ambassador to the czech republic, norm eisen. Theyre both here. Appreciate you joining us. Good evening, gentlemen. The president doesnt talk to the special counsels team, norm, will they compel his testimony before a grand jury . Don, thanks for having me back. I do believe that if the president refuses to talk to the special counsels team that they will seriously consider subpoenaing him. They have already significant evidence of obstruction of justice. We now have some idea of their collusion questions. There are important questions there. They cant get to the bottom of what they need to know. Bob mueller, who ive worked with, same side of the table and against, cant do his job without hearing from the president. So i think a subpoena is likely. But what if the president goes in and just says, i plead the fifth. Regardless what he said in the media that pleading the fifth says youre guilty. What if he says that . The president is facing a wicked its not a dilemma, its a trilemma, if he goes in and tells the truth, he runs an enormous risk of incriminating himself with obstruction, possible conspiracy, the actual other crimes that the president is referring to when he says collusion. Right. If he doesnt testify, he runs the risk of getting subpoenaed. He has to take the fifth amendment. That disqualifies him as our chief Law Enforcement<\/a> officer. So thats not a good solution for him. And then the president is stuck whichever which way he turns. All right. So, harry, what is the likelihood of the president that he actually sits down for this interview . Ive always thought its low, unless he is forced to it, and it looks more likely than it did before that some kind of legal battle is brewing. I agree with norm at the end of the day, that he will lose that battle and be compelled. Jack quinn mentioned that it might be open and shut because a criminal case is more weighty. On the other hand, the consequences for the president are more weighty as well. Its not an open and shut question and its never been decided by the court precisely, but i think they will hold that he has to sit down. Now, at that point, several months will have passed. Therell be potentially a whole new majority in the house. The dynamic may well have changed. And to his detriment. But i think mueller ultimately has the whole card here if he has to go to court. Okay. Harry, let me ask you this then, because norm mentioned collusion and said what the president means by the crime. He keeps saying no collusion. Even if the president didnt reach out to the russians directly, can he still be guilty of collusion or legally speaking conspiracy . Thats a really important gloss you made just at the end because, again, collusiony bandied about doesnt refer to a crime. If there was an agreement to reach out to the russians, and he does any act at all, for example, lets say he knows about the june meeting in trump tower. He doesnt participate in it, but after the fact he helps doctor up the false alabi with his son in others. He kuwait to liability for conspiracy. What about him saying, wikileaks, release those emails, could that be considered part of it . That seems pretty weak kind of evidence to me, and, of course, thats one of the questions mueller is talking about. That came as something of a surprise. We have to imagine, by the way, the questions seem kind of openended and be nine, but mueller is possessed of a wealth of information about all of them. To your very question, i dont think a prosecutor would want to go forward on the theory that that was the act. Norm, just quickly, please, yes or no if you can. The president tweeted, it would seem very hard to obstruct justice for a crime that never happened, witch hunt. But thats not how obstruction of justice works, right . Absolutely not. Obstruction of justice is a freeh standi freestanding offense. Its prosecuted all the time. The president is wrong. Thank you. When we come back, remember that letter claiming that president is, quote, the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency . Guess who apparent wrote that. Plus, details on an alleged office raid for the president s medical records. I have antivirus, but my computers still slow. I think its time for the fixmestick. Fixmestick is a plugin virus removal device. Its the smart, simple way to clean an infected computer, with a whole lot going on inside the stick. [computers sound] this one got around the Antivirus Software<\/a> not a problem. Were on it. And because it connects to the internet, fixmestick its always up to date. South l. A. Is very medically underserved. When the old hospital closed people in the community lived with untreated Health Problems<\/a> for years. So, with the countys help we built a new hospital from the ground up and having citi as an early investor worked as a signal to others to invest. With citis help we built a wonderful Maternity Ward<\/a> and we were able to purchase an mri machine. Weve made it possible for the people who live here to lead healthier lives and thats invaluable. The president s exdoctor is back in the headlines tonight. Dr. Harold bornstein telling cnn that he didnt actually write that letter during the campaign praising trumps extraordinary physical strength and stamina. Guess who he says did . Cnns Senior National<\/a> correspondent al detection marquardt has spoken to dr. Bornstein and he joins me now. Say that three times fast, bornstein, bornstein, bornstein. The man who described the president who said he was the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency right. Now says that candidate trump dictated those words. Right. And our drew griffin actually asked him last year in 2016, rather, the year after this came out, whether he had written the letter. He said, yes, he had. What seems to have changed now, hes putting a bit of a finer point on it. Why hes doing this now. Because were asking him about it. Perhaps also reflecting some of the rage he feels about a raid he says trump staffers carried out, which well touch on in just a second. He told me verbatim, he, being trump, dictated that whole letter, i didnt write that letter. What hes saying is that trump gave him the phrasing and the words and while he admits to writing it up and using some of his own style, it really was trumps wording. The way he says it went down, he was driving across central park in a car with his wife on that day in 2017 when trump was still the candidate. He was on the phone. He said trump dictated those words to minimum. Bornstein responded saying we can say this, we cant say this. He admitted to using some creative license and what he called some of his dark humor. He actually ended up comparing the letter to the movie fargo, if you remember. He had this incredible quote, it takes the truth and moves it in a different direction. So he admits with trumps words, he moved the truth in a different direction. Why the doctor, before we talk about this raid thing, why would he allow himself to be used that way . I think there is a sense of loyalty. He treated trump for 35 years and said he had never turned against him. He talked about that incident that you referenced there earlier. Trumps longtime bodyguard shows up at the office with at least one other man. What did they want . What happened . This happened february 2017. So a month after President Trump<\/a> was inaugurated. And the white house came out today saying that they were taking control of the president s medical records, as is appropriate once a president comes into power. However, bornstein says he was robbed. I asked him pointblank, was this a crime . He says, they stole them, many meaning the medical files. Referring two to staffers, keith schiller, President Trump<\/a>s longtime bodyguard here in anything. Moved down to be head of Oval Office Operations<\/a> and another a man named alan garten, a lawyer for the trump organization. The way that bornstein puts it, he says they barged through the back door, terrified the secretary and pushed aside the patient who was there. When you release a patients medical records, you need whats called a hipaa release. Right. These men, according to bon stein, certainly didnt have it. He says they stole the records. He says he was humiliated after 35 years of faithful service. Thank you. I appreciate it. Now lets discuss. I want to bring in now cnn political commentator Scott Jennings<\/a> and republican strategist rick wilson. Rick, are you surprised to hear this Glowing Health<\/a> assessment from trumps onetime doctor that he issued was actually dictated by the president , according to born seestein . The mean the thing about his rippling physique and astounding stamina. Six pack abs. The man can run a and not even break a sweat. It was a ridiculous and overly colorful thing. It had a lot of trump tells in it for the very beginning that should have at least indicated he was putting his thumb on the scale in terms of the creation of this memo about his health. I want to know what david denisons Health Records<\/a> show as well. The doctor revealed today he did trumps lab tests under pseudonyms. There is a whole story here. Every day we always say to ourselves, it cant get more crazy than today. It always does. This guy, i mean, hes meme worthy. Its fantastic. Just after that glowing review, nbc asked dr. Bornstein about his choice of language in the letter, and heres what he said. Is that the way that you write most of your medical letters . No, but for mr. Trump, i wrote that letter that way. Did he ask you to describe to that way . Or did you pick up his kind of language by spending time with him . I think i probably picked up his kind of language and then interpreted it to my own. I thought about it all day, and at the end, i get anxious when i get rushed. I tried to get four, five lines done as fast as possible that they would be happy with. Trump himself even tweeted about the report before it was released. Heres what he said, saying, quote, it will show perfection. So i want you to imagine this, scott. Imagine Hillary Clinton<\/a> had issued a fraudulent letter about her health if she had done that at the time. What do you think the response would be . Oh, i mean, people would be going crazy. Remember, during the campaign, Hillary Clinton<\/a> did have a scare with her health and there were all sorts of allegations about the Clinton Campaign<\/a> possibly o hiding how sick she might have been. That was an issue if we remember back to the president ial campaign. This doctor has always seemed like a fairly weird guy to me. He said he wrote the letter, now he says he didnt write the letter. He looks like the doctor they kept at area 51 in Independence Day<\/a> to oversee the aliens to be candid with you, unless he is hiding some marriajor illness t donald trump had, this would be super weird, but im not sure its going to crack the top ten weirdest things we talk about on the don lemon show during the trump administration. There is no concern to you that during the campaign for very big, you know, position, the highest some people would say in the world, that the American People<\/a> were duped . Yeah, well, i think yes, im concerned about it, of course, but the question i asked when i saw this back and forth today was, did he write a letter that had embellishments and a lot of adverbs . Or write a letter in an effort to hide an illness . That would be a much more serious scandal. It is super weird, but i dont get the feeling theyre hiding any illnesses that the then candidate would have had. You know what i thought about, rick, is that if trump can pressure bornstein into signing off on Something Like<\/a> that, what about the Health Assessment<\/a> from Ronny Jackson<\/a> . What about the one he delivered . Well, look at the similarities between these two descriptions of Donald Trumps<\/a> health. This is, you know, a guy who is clearly not missing many kfc meals who is described as this, you know, perfect cbs minute for his age, could live to be 200 years old, in astoundingly great health. The striking language in both of them is very similar and it obviously is a this is a guy who has a tremendous amount of personal vanity and wants to be described as this adonis, you know, become flesh and described in this way that is glowing and heroic. The picture of per fictiofectioe said himself. The similarities between the two are very striking. If youre suborning a white house doctor, a navy officer and a white house doctor to describe you in ways that arent fully accurate, its one of the things that begs the question, what is it driving your mental state that wants to make you do that . At some point, youre 77 years old, you have extra pounds, your hair is a little weird, you own it and ride with it. That deep male vanity shows in both of these letters. Thank you. Appreciate it. In the universe of shocking things kanye west has said, this may be the most shocking, saying that slavery, quote, sounds like a choice. Im going to let you hear that for yourself. I know a lot youre going to hear my take on it when we come back. We do whatever it takes to fight cancer. These are the specialists were proud to call our own. Experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. Expert medicine works here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com kanye west in hot water tonight, and its of his own fault, really. When asked in an interview to talk about his support for President Trump<\/a>, he turned to some really shocking comments on the history of slavery in this country. Listen to this. I just love trump. Thats my boy, like, you know, so many rappers, youll look at a video of snoop dogg loving trump, but then get in the office and now they dont love him. Trump is one of raps favorite people. We talk about this, before he was elected president , people in hiphop, it was an in thing to put donald trump in your rhymes somewhere. You hear about slavery for 400 years, for 400 years, that sounds line sound like a choice. You were there for 400 years and its all of yall . Were mentally imprisoned. I like the word prison because slavery goes too direct to the idea of blacks. Its like slavery, holocaust, holocaust, jews, slavery is blacks. So prison is something that unites us as one race, blacks and whites being one race, that were one were the human race. Joining me now is ebro barton. Host of hot 197. Thank you for [ laughter ] listen man, youre my guy. Im happy to be here with you. Yeah. I want to say that, youre my guy. We love you and we love how your afro has become more assertive as things have gotten more crazy in the world. All right, thank you, i appreciate that. Thats why i have you on, because i like your voice. Heres what kanye said. He said to make myself clear, of course i know that slaves did not get shackled and put on a boat by free will. My point is for us to have stayed in that position even with numbers on our side means we were mentally enslaved. Then he added, the reason why i brought up the mentally in prison, because we cant be mentally in prison for another 400 years. Even the statement was an example of free thought. It was just an idea. It was a bad taught. Thought. Your brain, kanye, and your mouth are not working in concert. Right, his thoughts are moving faster than his mouth, and hes embarrassing a lot of people especially in hip hop. Hes embarrassing himself actually yes. Because he doesnt know history. He doesnt read. Hes actually said out loud on several occasions that he didnt read. He experiences life, and i think what were seeing right now is a sad case of someone who isnt listening to people around him who are trying to tell him to just think first. Hes not he doesnt know what free thinking is because people are free to criticize him. And just because people feel a certain way about slavery and the African American<\/a> slavery, its because of facts, history. Its because people know what happened in the past and what effects that continues to have on people even in the present now. So its not necessarily that its not free thinking. Don, you got it. I dont know even know why im here. Im just here because youre my guy. Im here because youre my guy. And i also want to point out to everyone that is paying attention, remember that kanye is also part of a marketing machine, right . Which is the family and the team that hes around. I think this is spiraling out of control because he wants to think free, hes not filtering himself, because that would be out of fear and lets not do anything out of fear. And its once again, embarrassing him. He talks about the reason he likes trump and talks about snoop. Donald trump wasnt a National Figure<\/a> then. Donald trump and people and the rest of the country outside new york didnt know about the central park five, didnt know about the housing discrimination, because hes a rich guy people rapped about donald trump because he appears in the material things in hip hop, has always been enamored in the material things and those sort of images. And he wasnt imposing policies or suggesting policies that were detrimental to africanamericans. He was just throwing his name on buildings and trying to get on the cover of newspapers. They asked what policies that affect black people specifically. Trying to dismantle the Affordable Care<\/a> act, what ben carson is doing, all of these issues affect black and brown people. And also i think specifically and this is something ive tried to maintain in all of this circus and chaos which is this kanye west situation is not about partisan politics, its not about republican democrat. Its about kanye has allowed himself to be used as a tool for people who align themselves with hate groups and White Supremacy<\/a> in this country. Thats the problem. Yeah. Lets talk about this because i watch van leithan all the time. I love him even more now. I just learned his name today. For a long time, he was just a black guy on tmz. I knew him because im from louisiana, and hes from louisiana. Van is from tmz, and van confronted him. And this interview happens in the entire tmz newsroom. Watch this. Do you feel what im feeling . Do you feel that im being free and im thinking free . I actually dont think youre thinking anything. I think what youre doing right now is actually the absence of thought. And the reason why i feel like that is because kanye, youre entitled to your opinion, youre entitled to believe whatever you want. But theres fact and realworld consequence behind everything that you just said. And while you are making music and being an artist and living the life that youve earned by being a genius, the rest of us in society have to deal with these threats to our lives. We have to deal with the marginalization thats come from the 400 years of slavery that you said for our people, was a choice. Frankly, im disappointed, im appalled. And brother, i am unbelievably hurt by the fact that you have morphed into something, to me, thats not real. Bro, you got to be responsible, man. Bro, im sorry i hurt you. Im sorry i hurt you, bro. You gotta be responsible. Exactly. Hes got to be responsible. He doesnt understand the power of his platform and his words and what hes saying is wrong. This isnt about free thinking. What hes doing isnt about free thinking. Don, do you actually think kanye west doesnt understand his platform, his words . I dont know. Seeing this, im not sure of that. Kanye west only cares about himself and he knows his power, and he knows his words. Even though he doesnt know how to connect his words to actual clear, actual thought. Why . Because kanye west is operating in a space right now that is dangerous to himself and dangerous to his overall brand. And hes doing it because its spiraling out of control. It was a marketing idea to setup music and now things have gotten real. Hes stepped out of this circle in cal pass calabasas, california, and started having conversations with people that know whats going on. The conversations kanye wants to have have been happening. Its not new, bro. Its been happening. You just havent been involved. Matter of fact, i dont honestly think that kanye wants to come down and get involved. He doesnt want to get his hands dirty. He just wants to say some stuff from his calabasas mansion, studio, make some music and do what he wants to do. He just wants to say things for a mountain top. Ebro, thank you very much. Pleasure. My guy, don. Well be right back. And packages. And its also a story about people. People who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams theyre handing us more than mail theyre handing us their business and while we make more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget. That your business is our business the United States<\/a> postal service. Priority you im allbusiness when i, travel. Even when i travel. For leisure. So i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle without starting any conversations or paying any upcharges. What can i say . Control suits me. Go national. Go like a pro. If youd have told me three years ago. That wed be downloading in seconds, what used to take. Minutes. That guests would compliment our wifi. That we could video conference. And do it like that. snaps if youd have told me that i could afford. A gigspeed. A gigspeed network. Its like 20 times faster than what most people have. Id of said. Id of said youre dreaming. 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