Captions by vitac www. Vitac. Com breaking news, President Trump announcing another slew of pardons, 26 just tonight alone. It includes big names like his former Campaign ManagerPaul Manafort, longtime trump ally roger stone, and charles kushner, the father of trumps soninlaw Jared Kushner. Republican senator ben sasse summing up trumps pardon spree as, quote, rotten to the core. The president is becoming increasingly i radic in his final days in office, vetoing the defense spending bill, upending the spending package, and even threatening iran. I want to bring in cnn White House Correspondent john harwood, kim whaley a former federal prosecutor, and cnn president ial historian, timothy neff tally. Im glad to have you all here tonight. This is chaos. The president s behavior is becoming increasingly erratic. Should we expect more of this insanity over the next few days while he is at maralago . Of course. Look, this is what is going to define the end of Donald Trumps presidency. There are two Different Things going on at the same time. One is he has blown a gas get ov gasket over the fact he lost the election to joe biden, very difficult for him to accept that blow to his psyche, blow to his reputation. So, hes trying to deny it, spitting out all these crazy, delusional, dishonest conspiracy theories about what happened. Its been shot down in court. Now hes trying to get republican members of congress who are scared of him to do his bidding and try to get them to challenge the certification of electoral votes on january 6th in congress. Thats not going to go anywhere, but hes going to keep lashing out and trying to push that. That is related to whats happening on the covid relief bill and the omnibus, the threat of the veto. That reflects the president lashing out at Mitch Mcconnell, who sheparded that deal, Mitch Mcconnell having acknowledged a few days ago that joe biden is the president elect and were going to move on to deal with the new administration. Thats on one track. The other track, which is not delusional, is the president laser focused on using the pow thaer he has, in particular the pardon power, to shield himself Going Forward. So, he has pardoned multiple figures forget the friends and family and allies. Thats one category. But the big category is people related to the russia investigation. Hes been trying over the last several years to absolve himself politically and legally, and hes now pardoning people who participated in his activities with respect to russia who are lied about it, who have withheld cooperation from prosecutors, withheld information that could be damaging to donald trump. Hes pardoning them and i expect before the end hes going to attempt to pardon himself. Well see if it sticks up in court if he does. So, john, whats the white house saying about all these pardons tonight . Any word from them about it, or is he just gone . No, i mean, the only word that matters in this white house comes from donald trump. Hes the only person who can speak for himself. But the white house is a complete mess, chaos. Most people are normal people in the white house are going on looking for other jobs. There are some people there who are enabling the president in his fantasies. But this is a oneman show. Its donald trump and its going to be on stage whether hes at the white house or whether hes down in maralago. Well, ken, set the stage for us here because you know the Mueller Report noted that trump dangled the idea of pardons for people like, coincidentally for people like roger stone, Paul Manafort and he has not just dangled them. Hes pardoned them. Anything illegal about connecting those two dots . Well, laura, attorney general bill barr, whose last day was yesterday, when asked by vermont senator Patrick Leahy as his confirmation hearings whether a promise for silence in exchange for a pardon would be a crime, bill barr answered that question, yes. But like all things trump, the question isnt so much if its illegal. Its what can he get away with . And in this moment, we have a United States congress who essentially, knowing that the Mueller Report mentioned pardons 64 times, didnt do anything about that and then also decided not to even really hold an impeachment trial, saying that the whole thing can be resolved in the election and then we have over 100 republicans in the house of representatives essentially signing on to a brief to take away lawful votes in four states. This is really damaging to the United States constitution because its setting up a precedent, particularly if the president goes forward and selfpardons, whereby theres essentially no accountability for committing federal crimes potentially in the oval office. President s Going Forward, its a green light for fullon crimes in the oval office because theres really no accountability in the office because you cant prosecute a sitting president. The Congress Wont impeach. And no Accountability Office out of office potentially because of these pardons. You make a fascinating point about the timing that people should be aware of, kim. This idea that these pardons came down today. Bill barrs last day was yesterday. Is there some connection, people should be wondering about why yesterday was the last day. None of these pardons all of a sudden sprung up. It wasnt as if Paul Manafort or roger stone or kushner were convicted this morning. This was probably in the makings. Tim, i want to go to you. Think about what kims point is here about the green light. I know you are a historian. You are a marvelous one at that. Im thinking about the green lights Going Forward. But im also thinking from Historical Context here. I want to hear from you. Trump has now pardoned at least five people charged in connection to the russia probe. But no matter how many pardons he issues, he will leave office as an impeached president , right . Well, there will always be an impeached president. There were two restraints on donald trump. One was impeachment, and he got acquitted. The second was his reelection or his attempt at being reelected. He was not reelected. There were two constraints. Theyve both gone away. Hes a little less than a month in order to issue a series of bad pardons. But whats at stake here is not simply trumps legacy. Whats at stake here is Going Forward whether the Republican Party will continue to enable crimes committed in the oval office. I want to be very frank about this. It wasnt simply the Mueller Investigation that highlighted the what manafort and stone did. The senate, majority Republican SenateIntelligence Committee also made clear that manafort and stones unwillingness to share information vital to u. S. Counterintelligence undermined our ability not only to learn about what happened regarding russian hacking in 2016 but to protect ourselves in the future. We have just had another russian hack. U its a Major National security challenge. Our president has just pardoned people who could help us protect ourselves from russia and sent a signal to moscow that their secrets are his secrets. And the idea here that that cyber attack is not yes. Ruling the day, knowing how important it is. And its because of all the chaos thats been happening. Its not for lack of concern or interest on the part of the media. This is one of many things that have happened. And i think to myself, kim, about that notion, but i also think to myself about the idea that here we are seeing a pardon after a parent of somebody who was the soninlaw of President Trump, but who could be next . I mean, are there preemptive pardons for trumps own children, perhaps, his adult children, perhaps even preemptively his own soninlaw Jared Kushner or even himself . Well, there are actually a few limits on the pardon power. For example, he could not pardon anyone for future crimes. So, the minute he leaves office, anything in the future couldnt be touched. But sure, you know, theres a little bit of ambiguity as to whether the pardon actually functions as an admission of guilt. I think its really different from actually as you know also as a former prosecutor taking a guilty plea before a court. That being said, i do think the kushners and ivanka would have to think twice about accepting Something Like that in terms of their own political futures. But for donald trump himself, this is a man who came into office and is beloved by his supporters for his willingness to smash norms. And he is he is on his way out the door, taking a baseball bat to every piece of glass that remains in the white house and in the sanctity of the oval office. I would not be surprised to see a selfpardon. The problem there is theres no way to get the constitutionality of that before a court unless the Biden Administration were to prosecute him and he decides after the fact to basically raise it as a defense to a prosecution. I dont see a Biden Administration using its Political Capital to do that. So, again, this is what my concern is as a constitutional scholar, he could be creating a precedent for essentially bullet proofing crimes in the white house. And thats no longer government by we the people, its government by we the politicians, we the powerful. And thats not the premise on which this country was founded, whether republican or democrat in 2020. Absolutely. Its not. I mean, youre describing sounds like the person who is a monarch and autocrat, a dictator and said we dont have this system there for a reason. There was a rejection of that. Tim, you know this. In your new piece, you write about frankly how vulnerable this country is, not only to what kims talking about, but to bad pardons. Why has this tool of pardoning, how is it possible it has been left unchecked . Well, after bill clinton pardoned mark rich, whose exwife had given a lot of money to his foundation, there was a lot of talk in congress ant amending the constitutions to restrict 11th hour pardons. In fact, barney frank, a democrat, came up with an idea for a constitutional amendment. The problem is its very hard to amend our constitution. Its a good thing normally, but generally speaking there are a number of things that ought to be amended, and its very hard to do so. Amending the constitution would require, of course, threequarters of the states and twothirds majorities in both houses of congress. Thats what it would take. This issue of the problem of 11th hour pardons when president s are on their way out the door, when they no longer have to worry about public sanction, thats actually been talked about for a number of years. The problem is weve got a constitution that opens up the possibility for bad pardons because our framers concluded in the end that the fear of impeachment and the fact that americans are unlikely to elect corrupt president s would enough of a check on the pardoning power. And sadly that turned out not to be correct. Indeed. And of course well keep looking at this issue. It goes from the hypothetical esoteric discussions and law School Classrooms to now here we are in 2020. John, kim, tim, thank you so much for your time tonight. I appreciate all of you so much. Thank you. Thank you. You know, President Trump is vetoing a massive deference spending bill today. Hes putting pay raises for troops and equipment and upgrades and Cyber Security ding, ding, ding, Cyber Security upgrades and a whole lot more on the line. So, what happened to the president who said this . For our military, i just want to let you know, theres never been a president that has your back like i do. President trump vetoing the National Defense authorization act, which passed congress with wide bipartisan support. Its a 740 billion defense package that includes pay raises for troops, equipment monetization, and provisions for increased Cyber Security. A version of the bill has become law every single year for 59 years. Here to discuss, cnn military analyst general wesley clark, former nato supreme allied commander, the perfect person to speak to this issue. Welcome general clarke because, you know, earlier in the day before this pardon spree, the president vetoed the defense bill. So, can you please describe to us what is this message to the men and the women in the military . What are they hearing from this action right now . Well, on the one hand they might hear it as business as usual. They know theres a lot of conflict and strife in washington. On the other hand, its not business as usual. This was a very solid bipartisan defense bill. It passed the senate with overwhelming majority, a vetoproof majority. It had a pay raise in it for the military. It said that we need to really carefully consider and think again before we pull troops out of europe. It had important measures for military research and development. And it gave us the foundation to continue to be able to prepare ourselves against both russia and china. So, it was a very well thought out and long anticipated defense bill. President trump vetoed it. For the people in the know, this was a shock. Shocking and the fact that trump singled out section 230 of the Communications Act in his veto, calling it a very dangerous National Security risk. Its really about, frankly, his social media grievances. So, what do people in the military think about the commander in chief holding up funding, holding up pay raises, equipment modernization, cyber attack beefing up the security because hes got beef with twitter . Well, most of the the people in the military are going to be loyal to the United States constitution. So, when President Trump gives a lawful order, theyre going to obey it. Theyre not going to be talking publicly outside the chain of command or within the chain of command about the president of the United States. But i think its clear that in their hearts, especially the people who are in the upper echelons of leadership, they know this president for what he is. Theyre not supporters. Theyre not surprised. They know hes cynical. They know hes not patriotic. They know hes not a supporter. And so i think theyre looking forward to the next administration coming in. And theyre worried about whats happening in the white house over the next 30 days. Theres a lot of whats happening as well about through looking back and symbolic gestures as well and about the idea of acknowledging that america has progressed in many ways and changed in still others and has more work to be done. But the president is also against the bills requirement to change the names of military insulations that are named after confederate soldiers and slave owners. Now, its 2020 and the president is standing up for the confederacy in a way that many cant wrap their minds around. Does that make any sense to you . Doesnt make sense to the people in the military, i can tell you that. Most of the military people when they come in and go to fort bragg, fort benning or fort hood, they hadnt really thought about the names and most of them didnt know who general hood was or who Braxton Bragg was. After it became popular in the newspapers to talk about it and read about it, i think its common sense youre asking why are these forts named after confederate generals. Not only were they confederate generals, losing confederate generals, they were traitors to the United States of america. So, it raises some profound questions. So, the secretary of defense, mark esper, the chairman of the joints chiefs of staff, the Senior Leaders all agreed, lets put the past aside. Lets move forward. Lets get names on these forts that all americans can respect and reflect our country. Unfortunately, President Trump doesnt want to do that. Hes appealing to a certain part of the Republican Party he believes. I think hes mistaken. Meanwhile, the military serves us all. And i want to hear your reaction to President Trumps decision to pardon four American Security guards who were involved in the nowinfamous blackwater massacre. I mean, 17 unarmed iraqi civilians shot to death in 2007 including 9 and 11yearold boys. I mean, this is egregious, is it not . It is. It is egregious, and it should not have happened. And its going to have significant repercussions in iraq. People are already theyre outraged about this. It shows that american justice doesnt really mean what we believe it means. We always take pride. Were the nation of laws. We do whats right. We would never kmcommit a war crime, and yet look at this president. This president pardons war criminals. So profound and it makes you shudder to think about the repercussions of this abroad. Thank you. Thank you for your time and your service, as always. You know, tonights pardons are coming on the back of the president vetoing a defense bill, upending a covid relief package his own white house had a hand in, and calling for a special counsel to investigate his false election claims. 28 more days of the Trump Presidency