The memo and the readouts about what the president said to these russians was also something that was secreted away. So you can add it to calls between President Trump and the saudi crown prince, Mohammed Bin Salman and between the president and vladimir putin. Why . These are certainly unusual moves that must be explained. Its not clear if those calls were given the same level of super secrecy that we now know came with the call to ukraines president where the president asked for an investigation of the bidens, but it is another crack in a wall of silence. There was an even bigger blow, i would argue, today shedding light on mounting concern in the white house. The u. S. Special envoy to ukraine, kurt volker, resigned today, just one day after the whistleblower report came out. Why . Not clear yet. But he is mentioned in that whistleblower report and well look at how he fits into this ever more tangled web around his lawyer. Right now i want to get to a congresswoman whose words may have helped drive Nancy Pelosis decision to conduct an inquiry. Representative Elissa Slotkin joins me right now. I would ask you to exercise your expertise wearing two hats, as an intelligent officers as a lawmaker with responsibility and constituents. One, the idea of the president saying that to the russians. And two, that type of information being kept somewhat secret. Yeah, listen, i also worked at the National Security council under both president s bush and obama. Theres no way around it, just the breaking of norms and traditions that have gone on from the very beginning, its a little hard to take. You know, i think the president back in 2017 clearly didnt understand what we do and do not do in other peoples elections and was flippant about it. And now, of course, many, many things many months have gone by and we know a lot more about the story. But to be honest with you, i think a lot of this stuff that were talking about now, they are details that are part of the story but it sort of gets caught in the details when we dont focus on the big picture. I agree with you. So lets transition to that. Because his statements to the russians, write it off to ignorance or flippancy, as you say. But the arrogance of creating a twotiered system of how you protect information, its no coincidence to me the Washington Post is finding out what happened in that meeting now, that theres all this exposure about this other system. Have you heard about this other system, the password system that the ukraine call was in . Sure. Is that something you guys do in the intelligence world or they do at the nse . Again, at the nse there are multiple types of systems, some for unclassified information, some for classified and then some for whats called code word, which is exceptionally classified that even people with top clearance doesnt necessarily get to see. And what breaks with executive orders is anyone taking information from the unclassified system that has no reason to be classified and putting it in one of those higher level systems. I learned on my first day as a cia officer there are many, many different strict ways you can classify information, but embarrassing information, politically sensitive information, that is not classified information. So what they did by moving it wasnt right. I still think, you know, that it keeps us in the weeds a little bit from the bigger story, which is what the president did to use his leverage to get dirt on a political opponent. That is the story. That is the big thing here that was different enough for myself and my fellow National Security freshmen to come out for an impeachment inquiry. But, you know, were doing a methodical process now. Im really glad to see that a number of the Committee Members are staying behind. Theyve been asked to stay behind here in washington to follow through with some of the instead of recess. Yeah, instead of recess. Because it shows a different process. I think that one of the things that weve been losing, you know, in the past couple of months on this is were not bringing the American People along with the story. You know, the drip, drip, drip of information on this thing or that thing, its all its important but we got to be able to bring people along so it not a washington insider baseball story. You guys have a challenge because youre telling a new story now. I get that this is new information about ukraine, but for months democrats were saying we already have enough, this is already obstruction and were fighting with ourselves to figure out what to call it but we already have enough. Now you dont even want to talk about that stuff anymore, it only about ukraine. That could send a message to people as well, congresswoman. Are you worried about that . I think putting the country through an impeachment inquiry is such a serious thing, we shouldnt do it lightly. For me its something i never came into congress to do. It not something i go into gleefully or lightly at all. It crossed a threshold in National Security. It is different. Explain that. Look at it in this context because youre new to this particular world, even with all the intel experience. Now youre in a world where nobody expects any integrity on in level sadly. And i hope that changes. So sad. They say they all do what he did. They say biden did it with his son. People say this is what they do and now youre going to throw somebody out of office for doing what the industry norm is in washington . What do you say . I say its not the industry norm. It is not the industry norm for the commander in chief, the most powerful man in the world, to reach out to a junior partner nation and leverage that for dirt on a political opponent. That is not normal. Imagine a democratic president reaching out to china or north korea and doing the same thing. The precedent thats being set here, it just is different. And its also about the future, not the past. Its about the 2020 elections, not 2016. Theres an urgency about it. It is different. Its not something i ever wanted to do. Me and a number of us came out this week. It is different. Theres strategically important and tactically important. Keep it at the strategic level. Are you equally concerned as others in the caucus now that the call is not all . They keep saying it is just a window, its something that is a year in the making, many months in the making, involves people in the white house on multiple levels and what they were telling people in congress about why funding was being held, how they are changing different standards of classification to protect, what access mr. Giuliani was being given when we saw the text he released by mr. Volker who resigned. How many different layers are you considering in making your case to the American People as to what this rises to as abuse . We need to do a thorough investigation. Were starting that next week. We need to look into the detail and be methodical about it. We cant be jumping the done on anything. That doesnt mean the who el kitchen sink goes into some in your party say you will vote next month. Is that possible . Im not foreclosing anything. I do think the process needs to be strategic, clear, and efficient. Whats the standard . How bad does it have to be to justify to say this president should lose what the people gave him . I think if the president has put his own personal or political gain above the criteria of the country, that indicates an Impeachable Offense to me. Nobody wants to go through this but we are pushed to the point where to preserve the constitution and our democratic elections, we need to do this and we need to inquire and figure out what happened. And i think that we have to have certain standard and norms. I dont think that its a crazy thing to look into this as a very different matter. I think only this and only something that challenges my oath to protect and defend the constitution would have brought me to this place. So you believe it is a legitimate question as to whether or not this president jeopardized the National Security of the United States in doing what he did with ukraine . I think that is what is on the table and we need to figure that out, yes. What does it mean to you that volker stepped down, the special envoy to ukraine, he was working as a volunteer, also at the Mccain Institute there wearing two hats. Its somewhat atypical. He kind of stepped into theres a big hole in the ukraine diplomatic core. He steps out right after the whistleblower complaint comes out that he was mentioned in. Doesnt look good. I think its interesting hes stepping down. It allows him to be freed up to have a real conversation. I think he undoubtedly will be called in to give his side of the story, to talk about what he knows in front of the u. S. Congress and i think its better to do that as a private citizen than someone who is still in the employ of this administration. With Corey Lewandowski, as you know, Corey Lewandowski said theyre exercising their executive privilege. He never even worked in the white house. If they can do it with Corey Lewandowski, they can do it with him. The rule is clear, if youre not working there anymore, youre not under the privilege anymore. Lets all hope that not every witness is like mr. Lewandowski. I think mr. Volker is a serious professional and he understands this is a crisis right now and he owes his clear and objective responses to congress. What do you make in your analysis with your experience in the Intelligence Community of mr. Giuliani . Now, one problem is he told me he was doing this on his own. I asked him specifically are you working under color of authority of the president , certainly the state department would fit into that. He said no. Then later here said yes, he is working with the state department. He seemed to be telling the truth. Those texts he put out with volker seemed to suggest he was working. Is there a situation or a circumstance where that is okay for a civilian to be working with the state department doing these types of things with ukraine . Its highly unusual. I dont know if it been done in the past but it is highly unusual, not something ive seen in 15 years in government. I think mixing political and person with professional and National Security issues is always a dangerous game and never worth it. I think that its been cloudy at best starting with your interview with mr. Giuliani. I think hes acknowledged the very basic top line fact here, which is that the president used his leverage on ukraine to get them to provide dirt on a political opponent. He acknowledged it in front of you, in front of everyone else. Thats what changed for me is they were open about it. They didnt seem to be shameful about it, and i just cannot accept that, as an army wife, as the mom of a stepdaughter in the army, the commander in chief cant be doing that. It is interesting how many of you heard Rudy Giuliani lay out the biden case as flagrantly as he did, treat the facts the way he did, use the tone that he did and it started to make you think differently about what you had do in this situation. Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, thank you so much for giving your perspective. You have an open invitation to come here. The American People have to be brought along every step of the way. Thank you for doing so tonight, especially on a friday. Thank you. To be honest, there are no more fridays. It like every night is a big night now. Tonight were learning a lot about the lengths the white house went to to conceal details of the president s calls and conversations. You just heard someone who worked in the Intelligence Community. She said i wasnt aware people were doing this kind of stuff. The question is why are they doing this . Two reporters who are all over this story with some insight next. 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So why are we learning about things being hidden . Among the many questions being raised tonight as we learn about the white houses efforts to limit access to President Trumps calls with a lot of people, not just the ukraine president , but with putin and the crown prince of saudi arabia and what the president told russian officials in the oval office in 2017 while dismissing their election interference. So lets bring in jim baker and jim sciutto. You know jim sciutto is an anchor here. Jim baker is not a journalist, hes someone with legal acumen in the area were dealing with. Jimmy, you were on top of this early on. The significance to the audience, why does this news matter . Well, listen, lets start with the Oval Office Meeting here. Theres no other way to describe it but as a betrayal of National Security interests. You russia has just interfered in the political process and the president tells him hes fine with it, its okay, which excuses the experience in 2016 but welcomes interference in elections to follow. So you have the behavior and the comment and then you have the coverup where officials knowing that that statement to russian officials is something that should not be known by the public so they take extraordinary measures to keep it not just from the public but from other members of trump as own administration. And as we reported tonight, chris, my colleague pamela brown and i, that it was not limited to that meeting in the oval office. It was not limited to the steps they took after the ukraine president. They took similar steps after the president spoke to the russian president and after he spoke to the saudi crown prince. Its a pattern of troublesome patterns with foreign leaders and to conceal those steps from other members of his administration. Point, counterpoint. Their argument is we have all different types of ways in classifying things. Its up to our discretion, if you dont like it, complain and vote us out. But its certainly not something you can see as an abuse of power. Whats the counter . It is an abuse of power. Let me back up. The president has authority as commander in chief and the head of Foreign Relations for the United States to classify information. Thats true under the constitution. But it has to be for that purpose. It cannot be for the purpose of protecting him and his administration from embarrassment because he says things that are actually contrary to the National Security interests of the United States or unlawful. And i mean unlawful in the sense of unconstitutional, in dereliction of his duties as commander in chief and in dereliction of his oath of office. So he gets to classify information but only to protect the National Security. Thats what he can do. What if the National Security risk is theres too many leaks . Theyre killing me in here. We have to protect these things. Ukraine is a sense it have situation, theyre a fragile place, mbs, have to keep this stuff quiet, away from the leakers. Look, leaking truly classified information is unlawful. That should not be done. But this stuff, again, it is not in my mind properly classified when its done just to protect the political interests of the president or other people or to preserve them from the embarrassment. And in the executive order that governs classified information, it says that. Thats what the rules say. Can you not classify information just to prevent embarrassment or cover up violations of law, including violations of the constitution. To that point we know based on past administrations use of this codewordprotected system, they did not use that for politically embarrassing information. Im talking about republican and democratic administrations that preceded this one. They used it solely and principally for conversations that included the most sensitive intelligence, for instance, the bin laden raid, about iran and the nuclear deal. They used it for those kind of conversations, not conversations that are politically sensitive. So this was at a minimum, and ill let jim speak to the legal aspect but in terms of how classified information was handled in the system, it was a clear break from the norm. The biggest problem the president has right now is if this stuff is true in terms of the different aspects of working with ukraine to get to biden, youre going to have misappropriation of federal assets for other purposes. Hes going to have a problem with that. I want to turn our attention to mr. Volker. It the first time, guys, ive ever had them not trash someone who was leaving. No one is trashing volker. Theyre saying hes a good guy, he left. How does it not look bad . Jim sciutto, what could i be missing, the day after the whistleblower complaint that hes mentioned in, the special envoy to ukraine resigns . He is by position meant to be americas primary official dealing with ukraine affairs. In fact, we saw from the president s use of his own personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, that from the president s perspective, it appears he was using someone else outside of government. Thats a key point. Jim baker pick up on that. Help us with the legalities. We saw the text from volker to Rudy Giuliani. Did Rudy Giuliani have to register as a Foreign Agent . When is it okay, if ever, for a private citizen to work with the state department this way . What are the legalities involved . Well, so its a bit tricky. Let back up. Generally speaking under the constitution the president does have authority to select what envoys or emissaries that he wants to engage with or have engage with foreign leaders on his behalf. He can do it through the official channels of the state department or do it through others. That to me doesnt freak me out, let me just put it that way. But he does have to be careful about how hes spending u. S. Government funds, exactly whats happening, if hes putting state Department People out there saying something different, contradicting what giuliani might be saying behind closed doors. Look, the way this has come out, it does not look like a professional and wellthoughtout strategy by the president to effect the Foreign Relations of the United States in a comprehensive and cohesive way. It looks like amateur hour with the former mayor going around and saying the things that he does. It looks terrible. So well see what mr. Volker has to say. I got to leave it there but i appreciate it, guys. I thank you for jumping in, especially on a friday night. I appreciate it. You both got families. Amateur hour is bad but the abuse of power this has to rise to to make impeachment unavoidable, much higher. Thank you for bringing us the news and explaining it to us. Appreciate it. So big question, how could so many people possibly know what were only reading now in the whistleblowers claims . We cant understand the state of play here without knowing the players. And also, mr. Giuliani is at the center of this. I dont know that hes going to turn out to be a hero the way he thinks but he certainly catalyzed democrats and created a Tipping Point on impeachment. He told us things that now are being seen in a different light. Its all broken down and in a tangled web that i cant believe we weave. Next. Walking a dog can add thousands of steps to your day. Walking this many . That can be rough on pams feet, knees, and lower back. Thats why she wears dr. Scholls orthotics. They relieve pain and give her the comfort to move more so she can keep up with all of her best friends. Dr. Scholls. 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Democrats in the house are still going to want to talk to him and now access to him got a little bit easier if he left the white house. Hes one of dozens of people who either knew about or actively participated in a concerted effort to benefit one man, president donald j. Trump. The whistleblower cites more than a half dozen u. S. Officials who know the facts and a dozen white house officials who listened in on the call. The acting dnis testimony gave us even more names. So as you push in closer to the president , you see some big names personally in this. Volkers right there with some of the most powerful men in the government, which is why his resignation and possible testimony certainly matter. At the heart of this, we get to two people, the president and a man who hasnt Held Elected Office in over 18 years. It was last week right here that Rudy Giuliani tried to create so much smoke, he may have choked on it. Did you ask the ukraine to investigate joe biden . No. Actually, i didnt. You never asked anything about hunter biden, you never asked anything about joe biden . The only thing i asked about joe biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that lutsenko so did you ask ukraine to look into joe biden . Of course i did. You just said you didnt. In the days since then, it hasnt gotten much easier to pin down mr. Giulianis events. Its gone from he was acting as a private lawyer to he was following orders from the state department. Hes painted himself as the true whistleblower and hero. But thats about style. No matter what he calls himself, the actions are hard to discern. Especially because the administration refuses to answer whether he ever registered as a Foreign Agent. Maybe he needed to, maybe he didnt. But under federal law you are supposed to if youre a u. S. Citizen engaged in negotiations with a Foreign Government. That brings us to the results of his work. Im not going to give you proof. What can you do . You cant indict anybody. Believe me, the proof is in the right hands. The right hands. Can you imagine if this president with his attorney general opened up an investigation into joe biden on the basis of what theyre talking about right now . Now on that you got to keep in mind the president s own words and the whistleblowers logical conjecture, the dots still need to be connected here, but they line up in a Straight Path to the a. G. , which is why i asked question about can you imagine that . Bill barr is currently marshal be the resources of the d. O. J. In the hunt of his own facts in the hopes they work to the political benefit of his boss. The fact that so many in power were involved shows this is not about deep state. This is a window as to how the administration operates in the light of day. They are the nine pages that everything changed in this white house when this complaint came out. The former whitewater independent counsel robert ray has heard everything were saying here. What makes sense to him . What doesnt. What matters and why . What is different about this . What is here that the Mueller Report didnt have . Next. Yes hey sean hey dan bleech aww awww its the easiest because its the cheesiest. Kraft for the win win. Im working to make connections of a different kind. Adp helps canyon ranch place the right people in the right jobs, so employees like dave can achieve what theyre working for. Mom youve got to [ get yourself a new car. G ] i wish i could save faster. Youre making good choices. Youll get there. Were you going to tell me about this . I know i cant afford to go. I still have this car so you can afford to go. I am so proud of you. Thanks. Principal. We can help you plan for that. Start today at principal. Com. One of the interesting things about the dynamic were all living here is the president has yet to take any issue with the facts that the whistleblower laid out. He usually says its all untrue, its all fake. His hand are tied because this is transcript that came out with the blessing of the white house. Lets stick with the facts and bring in robert ray. Good to see you, my friend. We are literally living history together. Ill take issue with you on the first thing. That youre happy to be here . I think the president takes issue with a portion of the whistleblower complaint which attempts to allege theres a coverup and therefore an obstruction of justice. Says it didnt happen. So far as i know. When is it okay to take certain things and put it in a Password Protected classification place that is done for political purposes, not National Security purposes. Lets divide it up in the universe of think, there were diplomatic implications, legal implications and political implications. Its very easy to say it was all about politics. Thats really not true, is it . When you think about youve already mentioned on your broadcast legitimate concerns about leaks, which may explain with regard to other foreign leaders were certain things were cabined. Thats his best argument. Anybody who has been in washington, the more people you tell, the more likely its going to leak out. Its not a problem because im a journalist. There were some decisions where i literally told two people in the office because i know if i told them, i didnt have to worry. If it comes down a bunch of big brains, you, to come and argue that that made it okay. Is it . The other part was going to mention was the legal part. We know now from the reporting from the wall street journal and others i think today, that the Justice Department was involved very early on and the Intelligence Community apparently gave a heads up to the Justice Department. It went through where it should have gone through, which is the National Security division of the department. The whistleblower complaint . They knew about it before the whistleblower complaint. Apparently he went to the cia counsels office, right . I dont know what happened. But somehow the Justice Department got a heads up. The person who heads the National Security division of the Justice Department went over to view the transcript. And then after that, they reported back to the chief of the Criminal Division and the Deputy Attorney general got involved. So, again, all those things you would expect to happen. And thats why the reason for that is because there are legal implications. But the question is whether or not that rises to the level of making this okay to put under password protection. Thats the issue. Well see how it plays out. Just so its clear for the viewers, what youre talking about, were not talking about okay. What were talking about is did that constitute to a rise to the level of obstruction of justice . Just because things are shielded from access or public view why cant it just be an abuse of power . Thats not tantamount to obstruction of justice or abuse of power. I didnt say it was. I dont know about the abuse of power. If you did it for political purposes, you could say its an abuse of power. All the headlines in the morning newspaper this morning, everything was about trying to characterize all of this in terms of how this came out, which is a process issue, as concealment suggesting that the white house did something wrong. It does look like that, though. Thats why they have to explain it. They have to explain why it okay. I dont have any problems with explanations or hearings in order to understand exactly what happened, but dont jump to the conclusion that thats obstruction of justice. Im identifying it as an issue. Fair point. Im identifying also if the d. O. J. Knew about this in advance before it even went through the whistleblower process, it then raises the issue is that why you were so reluctant to have this complaint go to congress, because you knew what it was about, you looked at the transcript of the call, you knew it was bad for the president and you decided to sleep on that statute and makes it pretty clear is that an abuse of power . No. Again, there are legitimate executive privilege issues, legitimate issues with diplomatic implications, making sure theres not Public Disclosure of a private conversation between two world leaders. Its not just one thing. I understand everybody is now excited about the white house sat on this and the Justice Department was involved in trying to conceal it from congress and the American People. But im reversing the point as a question of perspective, which is, right, just because its complicated doesnt mean you cant explain it. You have to explain why it wasnt an abuse of power. Im not saying that the burden of proof is on the president but you have help understand the situation. I still get back to what we talked about two days ago, which is at the end of the day, what was this hearing about yesterday before the Intelligence Committee in the house . Mostly it was about process. You didnt want us to see this because you knew it was bad for him and thats not what youre supposed to be doing. Okay. And the Justice Department made a call on this with regard to executive privilege or the white house did with regard to executive privilege and the Justice Department made a call in connection with whether or not it satisfied the particulars of the statute. You may disagree with the answer, but theres a tenpage off of Legal Counsel opinion that represents the view of the government about what the law is with regard to the issue. Right. And in any event, after all of that and all this process, the whistleblower complaint has been released and the transcript of the call has been released. So what youre left with is a process argument about trying to hunt for and process matters. Look what were learning now. Do i care in a vacuum that this president was reckless enough to say to the russians in a meeting i dont care that you interfered in the election, we do the same thing . No. And i dont think its a coincidence that were finding out about it now. That someone tried to keep it quiet because they thought it fit into this category of political exposure they didnt like, thats what feeds understanding. You say its not about process. It has to be, robert, because what were trying to examine is was there a manymonthslong process here of engineering political advantage for this president with ukraine, with the state department, with the white house that was working over congress, insinuating giuliani into the state department that if you dont do the right thing with the biden matter, you are dont get to the white house and the president youre making it sound like it a manymonth process. The phone call was in july. Its been going on before that, march, april. I remember talking to him about it in the green room and it clearly was public at least by may. Thats a lot of months. It wasnt one phone call. Im talking about the president s conversation now and the process that were talking about. I dont know. Every day is a new day that the democrats decide to focus on something else, which is the scatter shot approach. The president talks to the other president and says look at biden with money and reciprocity hanging in the balance. Hes got to explain why thats okay. Well, he doesnt have to explain why thats okay if those two things exist in one conversation, thats well short of being able to show that thats a quid pro quo. You dont have to show its a quid pro quo. You know the statute just says solicit. The democrats have tried four things. Im not the democrats. Im right here. The four issues are what . Treason . No. Ukraine is an ally. Is it bribery . No. The bribery statute doesnt apply to Foreign Government officials. Can you solicit a foreign entity . Robert last one, is it a violation of the Campaign Finance law . The Justice Department has said through olc the answer is no. You can solicit a Foreign Government for political advantage. You believe that thats anybodys read on that statute . Stop. Asking for an investigation in the words of the Justice Department olc memo is not a thing of value. Therefore, it is not an illegal Foreign Campaign contribution, period, end of story. You may not like that, you may not agree with it. Reasonable people can disagree, but you have some of the finest minds in the country at the office of Legal Counsel making a judgment about that. But its not asking just for an investigation. Heres how we know. They already investigated it. You know that and i know that. Frankly, they investigated it twice, right . So shokin is looking at it. Thats why this farce about biden is so silly. He had this corrupt guy looking at his sons business, they get rid of him and put in lutsenko and then he talks to rudy jewel yawny and reopens it. And thats going back to something you already investigated and its clear the president wants a certain outcome. And what were the results of that . Anything lead to an investigation harmful to the Vice President . We dont know yet. And the democrats have made this a big issue, theyll sink the Vice President s campaign. The reasoning is always strong. Thats why i love having you on the show. But this is about him making that phone call, where it leads, what it means. I need you here to help us understand. Thats why you say high bar. I believe it requires based upon history and practice both a high crime and misdemeanor, treason or bribery and an abuse of power and one or the other is not good enough. It has to be a high bar, unavoidable or the subject of an election. Im with you on that. Were going to very clearly be within short order to november of this year, which means were actually literally in an election year. How is that in the best interest of the country to travel down this road rather than have the people decide . I hear you. I hear you but our leaders have to make choices, too. Sure. I have to have you back soon. Were going to go beyond the word of politicos and look at the trump and ukraine versus biden and ukraine. I know its a big deal out there. Dont get mad at me and say theyre not the same. Everybodys bringing them up in the same sentence so lets look at the facts on both sides. Thats the argument next. Here i go again on my own goin down the only road ive ever known like a drifter i was born to walk alone . Barb you left me hangin on the high harmony there. If you ride, you get it. Geico motorcycle. 15 minutes could save you 15 or more. Thenot actors, people, whove got their eczema under control. With less eczema, you can show more skin. So roll up those sleeves. And help heal your skin from within with dupixent. Dupixent is the first treatment of its kind that continuously treats moderatetosevere eczema, or atopic dermatitis, even between flare ups. Dupixent is a biologic, and not a cream or steroid. Many people taking dupixent saw clear or almost clear skin. 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Youre going to hear this president and his proxies coming after biden to cover this up and excuse it and soon. But saying something a lot doesnt make it true. What this president clearly did with ukraine is nothing like what biden did. It is true both did pressure the Ukrainian Government about prosecutions, but thats where it ends. The why and the how could not be more different. Here, biden acted publicly at the direction of the president as part of an International Effort to assist ukraine in removing a rogue prosecutor. Trump acted in secret without even the backing of congress, in fact, to opposite effect of congress, encouraging ukraine to take action that would help him and hurt a political rival. Now, what about hunter biden, bidens son . He was on the board of burisma. Are there ethical questions to be asked . Yes. Are there standards we could pursue . Yes. But when you sit on the board of a Ukrainian Natural Gas Company whose owner is under investigation, youve got to look at the legalities. First the uk was looking at it before biden even joined the board. Then ukraine picked up the investigation even before this rogue prosecutor came in. Remember, the rogue prosecutor was in trouble and rogue for ignoring cases like this and many other Corruption Cases to the dismay of his government and others. So to help force a change in that fragile regime, biden acting on the official of the United States, went to kiev, announced a billion dollar loan to the government, but there was a catch. Look, guys, im leaving in six hours. If the prosecutors not fired, youre not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch, got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time. Now, why would you get rid of a weak guy and put in a solid guy if you wanted to help your kid who was being investigated . Allies of this president will point to his bravado there as somehow proof that hes dirty. See, biden was using American Funds to pressure ukraine o and try and kick out and end that prosecution, they say. No. Prosecutor. Wrong for two reasons. Heres why. One, youre mixing up prosecution and prosecutor and youre doing it for advantage and its cheep. The prosecutors deputy told bloomberg there was no pressure from anyone in the u. S. To close cases against that burisma owner. It was shelved by ukrainian prosecutors in 2014 and through 2015. Second, this weak prosecutor wasnt even actively investigating the company at the time. In fact, u. S. Officials called him out for not looking at burisma more. Why would biden allow the u. S. Government to go after his own kid that way . An Even Stronger point, why fight to replace a weak guy looking at your son with a strong guy looking at your son more . And thats what happened. The new guy came in and stepped up the probe before ultimately closing the case. Now, when we look at what was behind that damning july call that this president made and manufactured, the intention has always been clear right from the mouth of his lawyer. Rudy giuliani plans ukraine trip to push for inquiries that could help trump. Thats way back in may. The months since, there were drips about this, and then the tsunami, trump ordering his chief of staff to put a hold on hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid. The call transcript, trump asking ukraines president to do us a favor, talking about a lack of reciprocity with all we give them. In the next breath, asking to investigate biden and his son. Remember, they had been investigated. They had already done it. What was he really asking for . Advantage. The whistleblower report. The white house officials were directed to remove the electronic transcript of the call from the Computer System where they were typically stored and move it to a separate system that Stores Classified information. Why limit the access to it . Those two pieces of information arent all. Theres a whole universe of events that were only scratching the surface of. And no real denials from trump, not about that call. Its not fake. Hes given us a string of contradicting explanations about why he held up the money, right . Innocent, i just wanted to fight corruption. I wanted europe to get involved. But the call itself, holding up the aid money, covering up the call, none of that screams of being on the up and up. In contrast, bidens always been open about what he did because there was nothing to hide. And remember this president has no problem accepting Foreign Campaign interference. Your campaign this time around, if foreigners, if russia, if china, if someone else offers you information on opponents, should they accept it, or should they call the fbi . I think maybe you do both. I think you might want to listen. You want that kind of interference in our elections . Its not an interference. They have information. I think id take it. Youre not supposed to take it. Turns out he wouldnt just take it. Hed ask for it as well. This president and his proxies can accuse biden of doing something, but they do that without proof. This president actually did what they accused biden of, strongarming ukraine for personal advantage, and there is proof. The two actions are no more equal in character or nature than the two men are. Where it leads for this president , we dont know, but we must make sure that we dont advance on the basis of false equivalencies. This must be about facts first. So how does the biden camp feel about this . Is this hurting them . 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