Lets get after it. We have a new investigation by the New York Times, telling me to rush over, i cant with my neck. The investigation takes a look at how much fred trump loved his song donald and his other children and hated paying taxes. It is a granular probe, 100,000 pages of filings, documents, depositions, experts, insiders all coming together to paint a picture of outright fraud according to the paper, in part allowing President Trump to increase the massive fortune he received from his father fred. Whats the headline for the president , selfmade my eye. Trump says he hit a home run in business. He wasnt just born on second base as we all know. His father carried him around third and threw him toward home. Trump has long insisted that his father provided almost no financial help, and a small loan of 1 million. Take a listen. My father gave me a small loan of 1 million. I came into manhattan, i had to pay him back with interest. I started with a 1 million loan, i built it into a billion dollar company. He gave me a small loan. I built that into a massive empire, and i paid my father back that loan. The problem with saying something a lot thats not true, you start to believe it. The New York Times proved what many have suspected for a long time. That Million Dollar loan, thats not true. They found at least 60 million in loans back then, that would be worth 140 million in current dollars. Trump called his fathers business just good, not great. Fred trump was worth way more than his son apparently. He lauded cash on him from jump. By age 3, mr. Trump was earning 200,000 a year in todays dollars from his father. He was a millionaire by age eight. The biggest payday he got from his father is when trump and his siblings sold off the empire, donalds cut was 177 million. That was a piece of the pie that fred trump was feeding his selfmade son over the years. All in all, the times says that selfmade trump received at least 413 million in current currency, from his fathers real estate empire. The times documented 295 streams of revenue that fred trump created over five decades to enrich his son, and minimize taxes by all legal means and according to the times, questionably legal and maybe worse than questionably legal. How did they do it . They did it by creating, according to the New York Times, sham corporations, by filing improper Tax Deductions and undervaluing real estate. If youre not a multimillionaire or you havent spent time investigating them, you wont know that thats not unusual. Rich people find ways to hide money, there are a lot of loopholes in the tax code that they use. But then theres how he helped trumps fate as a quiet invester and helped bail out many failures. In december of 1987, fred trump bought a 7. 5 stake in trump palace. So what, thats not wrong. He wants to invest in his son. So what . Most if not all of the investment, which totaled about 15. 5 million. Was made by exchanging Donald Trumps unpaid debts for trump palace shares. This is according to records, you get it . He owed his father money, his father bought a part of his property, his son gave him shares and that retired the debt. He didnt pay it back, the shares were worth 15. 5 million. He sold it back for 10,000. What does that mean . 15. 5 million. You sold it back for 10,000, thats a gift of 15. 49 million taxable as a gift. Fred trump reported no such gift. Did donald trump . I dont know. Fred and mary transferred over 1 billion in wealth to their children. Thats not really wrong, you have money, you want to give it to your kids, we understand. What about the taxes . 55 estate tax, that would be 550 million. The trumps paid a total of 52 million. Its about 5 of what they were supposed to pay. How does the president respond . Deny everything through his lawyer and attack the source. This is the response. The New York Times allegations of fraud and tax evasion are 100 false and highly defamatory. President trump had no involvement whatsoever with these matters. He was certainly part of the architecting of this scheme. The affairs were handled by other trump members who were not experts themselves and, therefore, relied entirely upon the aforementioned licensed professionals to ensure full compliance with the law. The white house is also responding, Sarah Sanders says its sad to witness this misleading attack against the trump family by the failing New York Times. Many decades ago, the irs signed and reviewed these transactions. Sarah, the Million Dollar thing, you got to be careful, she tells the story that the president tells, he only gave me a million, i paid it back with interest. We now know thats not true, if you keep saying you know it isnt true, you wind up owning that untruth yourself. It raises a question. Is this why trump wont show us his taxes . Is he moving the money the same way . Lets bring in the experts, Michael Zeldin used to investigate exactly these transactions for the government. Jennifer and steven. Michael let me start with you. Legally, i dont see it, statute of limitations maybe on the civil side, fines, when you look at whats in this report by the times, what gives you pause . So you always have to, in these matters, make sure that you understand the difference between lawful tax avoidance and illegal tax evasion. You have to really parse these transactions almost transaction by transaction to see whether or not they were taking advantage of loopholes in the tax code or end running them in terms of legal evasion. What stands out to me the most is the valuations of these properties. For tax purposes, there was a low value set for the property so taxes paid were reduced. And when collateralizing for other loans and matters by which they sought equity, the value was inflated. That movement of value of property within a short period of time to me, reflects more on the evasion side of the leather than the avoidance side of the leather. Theres something, lets bring you in on this. I thought what was interesting in terms of architecture was when the family or whomever winds up having the guilt in this, or the responsibility of putting the money on that company. People would sell things to the trump company, this company would invoice them, pay them back and charge the Trump Organization directly. Fred trump therefore filtering more money from him to where he wanted it for the kids. Thats fishing. Thats right, thats the one that looks to me to be the most criminal, as we know, theyre all too old to charge now. Thats the one where you have a run of the mill fraud, not just a tax evasion. Here they are literally defrauding people, defrauding the government, but also defrauding others, including ultimately some of their tenants as they try to raise prices based on what we know is false reporting. I am a louzer investor, but if you give me 400 million im going to do okay. I do believe this is about honesty on one level. The president saying he got a million from his father, when he got 60. He was selfmade and fred trump was only good, he was great. We see in this clear time line, thats hes been feeding from the fred trough his entire life isnt this the truth, isnt this something he should own instead of saying hes a selfmade man . Lets get to the heart of the matter, which is the issue of whether or not he was involved in criminal fraud, which one of you just said. And whether he was guilty of tax evasion, which is a crime. Tax avoidance as weve all agree on is not a crime. In fact, every good businessman and woman in america, does tax avoidance. Its a skill set. Everyone wants to reduce their tax of course they do. No one wants to pay more in taxes. I want to get this story straight, it doesnt add up, donald trump has probably been audited hundreds of times, theres probably not too many people in america who have been audited more than donald trump. How do you know that . He said it, he oh. Well, first of all, why wouldnt they audit him . Youre asserting that these three reporters from the New York Times have discovered all of this tax fraud, when hundreds of irs auditors didnt find it . I mean, that just isnt plausible. Incidentally, this is about the fourth or fifth time, the New York Times has run this story, i remember they ran the story six months before the election. They keep repeating the story no, this is new. Its all new . Its not new. A lot of this is new. I did this investigating, i did it where a team at abc news. It would be comical if it werent so scary at the time. I would have phone dialogues with donald trump, every time we would give him his net worth. He would double it. For someone to take 100 million and turn that into a 10 billion business. Thats one hell of a businessman. Do you know look at the enterprise, every city in america has a trump hotel. The real estate development. I mean hes an incredible businessman. Were going to take a break because theres a lot to chew on here, we have facts and then we have feelings about the president. And they are not meshing, okay . Is he a selfmade billionaire . Is he a billionaire . Maybe. Probably, most will say yes. Selfmade . How do you make the case . Is he responsible for a scheme to transfer money in a way that it should not have been done . Maybe. We have a lot more to go through with our panel. Ive never seen more granular reporting than the New York Times has. We also have a former attorney general who could be a future president ial candidate. What is his take on all of this . The new Capital One Savor card. Earn 4 cash back on dining and 4 on entertainment. Now when you go out, you cash in. Whats in your wallet . Janice, mom told me you bought a house. Okay. [ buttons clicking ] [ camera shutter clicks ] so, now that you have a house, you can use homequote explorer. Quiet. Im blasting my quads. Janice, look. Im in a meeting. Janice, look. [ chuckles ] look, look. Im looking. Its easy. You just answer some simple questions online, and you get Coverage Options to choose from. Youre ruining my workout. Cycling is my passion. Youre ruining my workout. Onmillionth order. R. There goes our first big order. 44, 45, 46. How many of these did they order . Ooh, thats hot. You know, we could sell these. Nah. We dont bake. Opportunity. What we deliver by delivering. With tripadvisor, finding your Perfect Hotel at the lowest price. Is as easy as dates, deals, done simply enter your destination and dates. And see all the hotels for your stay tripadvisor searches over 200 booking sites. To show you the lowest prices. So you can get the best deal on the right hotel for you. Dates, deals, done tripadvisor. Visit tripadvisor. Com now, what is the signature story for donald trump. No matter what i say, no matter what i do, i am one hell of a businessman. Pulling myself up by my bootstraps. A New York Times investigation says no, no, no. He built it with tax schemes and outright fraud. Still with us, Michael Zeldin, steven moore and jennifer rogers. Two former prosecutors and an economic expert. Thats what im giving you, steven moore, let me ask you this, this is the question for Michael Zeldin. You heard steven moore say, its a 10 billion business he built, hes been audited dozens of times, what do you make of those statements . I have no basis to know whether thats true. Nor do i think does steven. So the easiest way too resolve this uncertainty is for the president to release his past ten years of corporate and business tax records so we can understand what is the truth and what is the fiction in this. The other thing is, much of the tax evasion avoidance discussion with respect to the New York Times story, would relate to fred trump, the fathers tax returns and how these were addressed, and we dont know the answer to how, if they were audited at all, so i think steven is assuming facts not in evidence, and until we see those tax returns, we can assume only that the times i think mostly has it right, until proven otherwise. No one likes to have a taxman in their life. But one thing that has to be pointed out. When you and i were going at it at the commercial, jennifer came in to speak truth to power. All audits are not equal. Well, he was audited, everything must be fine. These auditors are busy people. As we were talking about, sometimes they dont pay any attention at all if you say youve earned nothing. We dont know what went on at the time. Im sure they were looked at to some degree, but the numbers theyve presented are staggering in the undervaluing, it has to be intentional, whether its donald trump or the professionals they surrounded themselves with, im not sure. The all county thing, the shell county looks to be a fraud. The rest of it, who knows, we need to know more. Im willing to look past everything about the father god bless him for making that money, god bless him for giving that to his kids. My point is this, donald trump has been telling a story about himself for a long time that is false. And now you see it in the reporting of the time line you saw, his father transferred hundreds of millions of dollars to him. Bailed him out, bought casino chips worth millions of dollars that were never used. Took an interest in a building that was paid back at a fraction of the cost. Which is just another way to get a gift, thats the truth. Look, i cant comment on how much money. You must. I just dont know the facts. I dont know how much of the wealth it didnt stop you with the 10 billion business. You dont know that he has a 10 billion business. In one or two generations, a fortune can be squandered and nothing is left. Donald trump took that money and build an empire. He was given an empire. Every city in america has a massive trump hotel. He doesnt own the buildings, hes not his father. He licenses the name. Let me make one other point. I thought it was rather hypocritical say, his father didnt pay any estate tax. Guess what, the kennedys didnt pay any estate tax. Oh, then its okay. Jeff bezos isnt going to pay any estate tax. Billionaires dont pay an estate tax. Are they president right now and saying, i wont show you my taxes . Why are we revisiting this . Because it matters. It was adjudicated during the election. Im going to make a deal with you, this is the heart of the matter, lets find out from the irs how many times donald trump is audited. Ill give you that, its not the heart of the matter, if hes been audited hundreds of times, how could the New York Times come up, youre saying that the New York Times is better at auditing these tax returns than the people who it doesnt mean they have the access. It doesnt make any sense. People get around the tax code all the time, legally, kind of legally, and otherwise. Its not that easy. Steven is deflecting from, rather effectively. The president says i did it all myself, my father gave me a Million Dollars, he was good at business, he wasnt great. I had to pay him back with interest. The rest on me. Demonstrably false, yes or no . According to the New York Times, false. Going back to the point that we are addressing with steven moore. It is the valuations that prove the truth of the proposition, which is, when property is values for tax purposes as worth something much less than what its sold for a few years later, unless theres a major spike in the real estate market, that is indicative of false valuation. No it is not, that happens all the time. All the time on tax return. Steven, excuse me, excuse me. People deappreciate the value. But when you do it so much that grossly defies estimates of buildings in the same area, it looks suspicious. Obviously you need more. We have a president that doesnt want to disclose anything. Thats why i wanted to have the discussion. Steven, michael, jennifer. You were the best in the whole panel. Thank you for all three for making sense of this. Were going to look at it a different way. When we come back, who would you say is the democrats best chance to beat President Trump if anyone . Eric holder is going to be on everybodys short list and he is here. What about the times report, what does he think . Rosenstein, 2020, the fbi with kavanaugh . All of this we have the right guest for you when we come back. They Work Together doing important stuff. The hitch . Like you, your cells get hungry. Feed them. With centrum micronutrients. Restoring your awesome, daily. Centrum. Feed your cells. You need insurance. But its not really something you want to buy. Its not sexy. Or delicious. Or fun. But since you need both car and home insurance, why not bundle them with esurance and save up to 10 . Which you can spend on things you really want to buy, like. Well, i dont know what youd wanna buy because im just a guy on your tv. Esurance. Its surprisingly painless. Plaque psoriasis tremfya® is for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. With tremfya®, you can get clearer. And stay clearer. In fact, most patients who saw 90 clearer skin at 28 weeks stayed clearer through 48 weeks. 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Two sources tell cnn, they may look at kavanaughs high school friends, listed as attending a party on the nominees calendar from 1982, what does this mean . Lets bring in eric holder, welcome to prime time . Good to be here. The concern with this probe is that its not a real probe, they only have a few days, theres a report they may be done tomorrow. Now were told theyre seeing something, and they may want to expand. How do you make sense of