I first i want to focus on the letter itself. You make a discrete and important constitutional argument about the role of congress this wednesday, january 6th, specifically what is congress job in terms of the electoral votes on wednesday . Well the 12th amendment makes it pretty clear that congress has the job of counting the votes after the Vice President , the president of the senate opens the envelopes and that is congress job. It is not to second guess the state legislatures, not to second guess the secretary of state or governors signature on those ballots, on the information that has been sent to us. It is simply to count votes and you would think that a body that could create 30 trillion of debt could count a few hundred electors. You think they could do that properly. Their job, your job is to simply count the votes. That is what the constitution says. There is an 1887 law which goes into greater detail about the process itself, but who has, according to the constitution, the exclusive role to choose or appoint the electors . Its obviously the states and its the voters of the states that make that decision. Now, i have to tell you, i am concerned about voter fraud. I dont believe that there is widespread voter fraud. The attorney general of the United States has looked at these elections in these six states and has opined there was not widespread voter fraud. If you cant trust bill barr to make that kind of judgment, i dont know who you can trust. If you cant trust the department of justice to look at this election and render an uneye bassed, fair verdict, then we have more serious problems, but you have to recognize also, there were millions of voters who now believe, millions of americans who believe there was an unfair election. I think our job has to be to go in and do what the constitution tells us, count the votes, and render that. I also think there should be an examination at some point about how we make our election process more fair and credible, so the American People trust it more. You do note, though, that five of the six states that are most in question right now have republican legislators and republican governors, sometimes both, there are judges, federal and state judges, including Many Republican appointees who have all looked at this. What have they all unanimously found when presented with these claims that somehow the election was not on the up and up . Yes, they have found instances of voter fraud but they have not found widespread voter fraud and most of the allegations are speculation, and really hearsay as to what could have happened or might have happened, but the truth is that youre absolutely right, five of the state legislatures, the house and the senate from these six states, the house and the senate are controlled by republicans and if they had wanted to send us an alternate slate, they could have done that. They didnt. What are the other republican members of congress, and again, i hope people realize and i had a chance to cover one of your elections a few years ago in colorado, youre no soft conservative here. Youre no soft supporter of the president here at all. You are not coming from some moderate squishy position on any of this. You just are trying to follow in your mind the constitution. Chip roy from texas is in a similar position. He stood up in congress yesterday and signed this letter along with you and he said look, if youre going to object to the president ial election in these six states, how can you members of congress from those states sit here and say your elections were fair . What did you make of that . Thats a great point. I was standing next to chip and made the argument with chip and i have to tell you something, over and over, the members who claim that the elections in their own states were unfair as to the president , accepted the oath of office yesterday, were sworn in as congress, and a lot of them tweeted out how proud they were that the voters of their district, of their state elected them, so they didnt find any fraud as to their own election but alleging there is fraud or agreeing with the president that there is fraud as to the president ial election. It seems a little inconsistent. Hypocritical is another word, isnt it . Its certainly a word in the dictionary. I use the word inconsistent. They are my friends and i think theyre inconsistent. Fair enough. Listen, we have this audiotape from georgia now, where the president of the United States called the elected republican secretary of state from georgia and said i just want to find 11,780 votes. I just want to find 1,780 votes. What were your feelings when you heard that . My feeling was the republican secretary of state in georgia and the republican governor in georgia and the Republican Party in georgia deserve credit for making sure that they ran a fair election, that they were bound by the results of that election, and that they have told the world that they have gone they have done recounts, they have audited, they have gone to really tremendous extent to make sure that everybody understands that that election was credible, and i give them a lot of credit for making sure that they have not waivered in their duties and the oath they took to the people of georgia. Do you think the release of this audiotape will have any impact on your colleagues who may be trying to object to the count on wednesday . I dont know. You know, they claim they have 140. I dont know, they may have more, they may have less. Im not sure. I dont think there is actually a formal whip count on this. So i just dont know what the number will be, what it was before and what it will be in the future. What is your message to the president of the United States, someone who you supported a lot over the last few years. What is your message for the president this morning on the language he is using and the things that he is asking for . Yeah, i think its really important that republicans come together and that republicans understand that the election in georgia is really very important, and i think its important to america. We want to make sure that the, this country does not lurch to the left again, that we have a fair and balanced governor that only the best proposals proceed, and that means that the two Senate Candidates in georgia should be reelected, and that we should have that balance, that firewall to make sure that good proposals move forward, but radical proposals do not, so lets focus on the elections in georgia, and getting republicans elected. I just want to bring up one last point. You write one of your concerns is that if you overturn the Electoral College now, thats something the democrats might try to do in the future, correct . Well, the Electoral College is under attack by the left and i think its important that conservatives and americans stand up for this idea that the founders had that gave Rural America a voice in president ial elections. So i absolutely do not think we should do anything that undermines the Electoral College. Congressman ken buck from colorado, we appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. Joining us now are cnn White House Correspondent john harwood, cnn Global Affairs analyst, Susan Glasser and cnn contributor and republican election lawyer ben ginsburg. Great to have all of you here. Lets start, ben, with what we just heard from johns conversation with congressman ken buck. He spelled out why he cant go along with what other republicans in congress are going to attempt to do this week. Youve heard the audiotapes. You heard congressman ken bucks rationale. Tell us what the law is here. Well, the law is that donald trump may have sort of wandered into a criminal violation, but the reality is more the constitutional and political ones of the votes theyre going to be taking on wednesday. What ken buck was making and the six other house members was a constitutional argument, that the role of congress is not to do what the president wants. The tape itself is much more of an argument that will go to the way republican members are trying to think about their vote, and its got to be making them cringe which ken buck hinted at but wont confirm. It was the interesting the way he talked about that. These are two separate things in a way, what happened in georgia and what one might influence the other. They might. Thats what Adam Kinzinger said overnight. Whether or not the president violated the law and committed Election Fraud, its interesting, can be discussed but to be clear, you find what he did more rally repugnant. Why . Its morally repugnant because a candidate, especially a president of the United States calling up a state official and telling him to jigger the results because he didnt like the way they turned out is about as antidemocratic and really antiamerican as it can possibly get, and this is the person were looking to for leadership in the country, and i think republicans are going to look at what donald trump did and realize that the omnipresent force that they think hes going to be is fading in this. Hes traipsing in illegal territory. About to face a comeuppance on the covid situation and lack of leadership there and why republicans think hes going to be such a strong presence for the next four years and into 2024 is i think starting to crumble. Susan, to hear the president in his own words, it just gives you such insight into his entire modus operandi. He tries to bully, tries to intimida intimidate, tries to threaten with legal action, tries to cajole. Here is the moment hes talking to secretary of state Brad Raffensperger and suggesting something bad might happen to Brad Raffensperger. It is more illegal for them than it is for them. You know what they did and not reporting it. Thats a criminal offense, and you know, you cant let that happen. Thats a big risk to you and to ryan, your lawyer, thats a big risk. If someone had a weaker spine than Brad Raffensperger who throughout this hour call pushes back no, mr. President , thats not true. You dont have the right facts, your data is wrong calmly, i dont know what would have happened. You have to listen to that and you have to wonder, its an important reporting question, how many other phone calls like this has the president made since the election to other officials . Apparently this is not the first time hes tried to reaches raffensperger, who seemed prepared and taped this phone call as a result of concern about what the president of the United States would say, but i think it really, this entire controversy you listen to trump in private, and frankly, its a lot of the same conspiracy theories hes been spreading in public ever since. Thats the fascinating thing about the scandal of trump. Unlike richard nixon, americans were genuinely shocked when they found out after the fact about his expletive laden racism, conspiracy theories, his rants. He tried in public to present a different kind of image. Donald trump in private and public has been remarkably consistent in the nature of his conspiracy theories, disinformation, the way in which he bullies and intimidates others. Its really striking. Whats amazing is that its the president of the United States, but you know, to the point about the Republican Party, theyve always had a choice, and many of the people who are pushing back on trump, as with the congressman that you just interviewed, are supporters of his. You know, its never too late to stand up and make a choice here. It was interesting here, ken buck, he went further than i frankly thought he was going to on the president s claims. John harwood one thing was suggested earlier in the show, the president has lost the election. Now its clear hes lost his mind. That may be the most charitable explanation for what happened on that phone call, because either hes delusional or hes criminal. I mean, isnt that the choice here . John, i think youre exactly right in how you frame that. If you listen to that phone call and read the transcript of that phone call, the president of the United States is babbling like somebody you would find sitting in the middle of the street saying hes really the king of neverland and he just needs a ride to his castle. The kindest thing you can say about the president is that some mental or psychological incapacity prevents him from understanding what hes actually doing. Otherwise it is simply a straightup request that Brad Raffensperger commit Election Fraud on his behalf. Whether thats technically a crime, whether it could be proven a criminal offense could be proven, if it were charged, those are questions ben ginsberg could answer. If he understands what hes doing, hes obviously doing something wrong and the question for the Republican Party is, are they going to stand up or say its okay with me the president of the United States is behaving in this way and thats trying to overturn the results of a democratic election in this way. Guys, stick around, if you would. We have many more questions. There was also this stunning rebuke from every former living defense secretary, including two of President Trumps, their strong warning about what might happen next and why they felt compelled to put out this public letter this weekend. Thats next. Its ubrelvy. For anytime, anywhere migraine strikes without worrying if its too late, or where i am. One dose can quickly stop migraine in its tracks within two hours. Unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks cgrp protein, believed to be a cause of migraine. Do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. Most common side effects were nausea and tiredness. Serena ask about ubrelvy. The anytime, anywhere migraine medicine. To syour body needs routine. System, about ubrelvy. Centrum helps your immune defenses every day, with vitamin c, d and zinc. Season, after season. Ace your immune support, with centrum. 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So dead people voted and i think the number is close to 5,000 people, and they went to obituaries, they went to all sorts of methods to come up with an accurate number. It doesnt pass the smell test, though, because we hear theyre shredding thousands and thousands of ballots, and now what theyre saying oh, were just cleaning up the office, you know. I dont think that the ballots are corrupt. Which is totally illegal. Its more illegal for them. You know what they did and youre not reporting it. Thats a criminal offense, and you cant let that happen. Flipping the state is a great testament to our country, because its a testament they can admit to a mistake. A lot of people think it was much more than a mistake, it was criminal. Overnight Something Else happened which is remarkable and directly related to what we are now hearing out loud from the president of the United States. All of the living former secretaries of defense signed a joint letter, this oped in the washington post, basically saying theyre concerned now about what theyre seeing and that the election has been decided. These secretaries write efforts to evolve the u. S. Armed forces in resolving election disputes would take us into dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory. Civilian and military leaders who direct or carry out such measures will be accountable facing criminal penalties for the grave consequences of their actions on our republic. Dick cheney, donald rumsfeld, mike mattis, susan esper. Why did they feel it was important, necessary to write this. Why are they concerned the military might be in play . As much as the contents of this oped was remarkable, it is the fact it exists at all and William Perry tweeted the idea for this came from dick cheney himself. Certainly the personification of a hardline conservative and i think its their alarm, remember, donald trump has repeatedly expressed interest in invoking interaction, going back to the black lives matter protests. I have spoken myself with very senior current and former pentagon officials who are very worried about what it is the president has been doing since the election. We know that he even spoke with mike flynn, his former National Security adviser in the oval office about could he invoke martial law. Flynn had this insane idea how youd do that and conduct a revote of the election. This was actually discussed in the oval office, which to me remains one of the most remarkable things of an absolutely remarkable period. I think the fact that an oped like this is written is something we should take seriously. It is so unusual. Susan, its such a great point and ben, they didnt do this on a lark. For them to come together as susan points out to do this, theyre clearly concerned. They clearly want the American Public in this open letter to understand something and you know, theres still 16 days left and when you hear the president again its connec