Weve all been talking about this story. Its the buzzfeed story that came out thursday night that said President Trump directed Michael Cohen to lie to congress. With a clearcut Impeachable Offense being alleged, the story went everywhere within a matter of minutes. But then on friday night Robert Mueller did something incredibly rare. Something his Office Almost never does. His Office Issued a lawyerly response seemingly knocking down the story saying buzzfeeds description description of specific statements to the special counsels office and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office are not accurate. Lets go back to the story. Did the president tell cohen to lie . Whos accurate . Here for their first sitdown interview, Anthony Cormier and editorinchief ben smith. Thank you for having us on. Were happy to talk about this story. Im glad you began with the question of the truth of the allegations because ultimately, this is a media show, were here to talk about process, were happy to talk about that. Just on your air an hour ago Rudy Giuliani gave this classic Rudy Giuliani interview where jake tapper asked him about that central question. Did donald trump talk to Michael Cohen about his testimony. Rudy giulianis answer to that was, so what . And Rudy Giuliani, as you know, through this whole sort of amazing saga has, when news breaks gone on tv to try to get ahead of it. Rudy made real news around the core of this story. As we go to on to talk about process, i do want to make sure we also talk about the fundamental core of this story, about a giant construction project in russia and secret negotiations through the campaign. Which he seems to have confirmed to continue earlier the claim was nobody was talking about a russia project in the final months of the campaign. Now the claim is different. Now rudy is saying, yeah, they were probably talking about it. Anthonys reporting said it went through the summer, which was a big news break at the time. Giuliani seems to have said it went through november. Thats extraordinary. I dont mean to get away from the process but i did want to dwell on that because thats important and the heart of what weve been reporting. Lets get to thursday night and the story that says trump told cohen to live. Do you have any new evidence since thursday night that supports your story . I have further confirmation this is right and stand our ground. Our reportering will be borne to be accurate. Who are your sources . Im not going to talk about my sources. Rudy giuliani signaled there would be a leak investigation. This is an important matter and in order to protect our sources and not put them in any risk, were not going to talk about the sourcing. You wrote on thursday night, we can put it on screen, the lead of your story, the blockbuster lead, that trump directed cohen to lie to congress. Do you have sources beyond the two in the story or just the two sources . Were not going to talk about the sourcing matters it sounds like youve gone back to those two sources since friday and they said the same thing to you again . I cant talk about the timing of when weve spoken to people but, yes, the same sources we used in that story are standing behind it, as are we. The story goes on to say, cohen told the special counsel that after the election the president personally instructed him to lie by claiming negotiations ended months earlier than they did in order to obscure trumps involvement. Youre saying cohen told the special counsel. Thats been a matter of debate. Did cohen really tell the special counsel this information . Thats one of the details mueller seems to be objecting to. You still both stand by that. Were eager to understand which characterizations mueller is talking about there. We take that incredibly seriously. You challenged him on friday night to say whats wrong in the story. We really would like have you heard from the special counsel . We have not. We heard through the Washington Post a bit. We havent heard what where the gap is and where we can continue our reporting to close it. Were interested in the construction of that statement. Jason lee sent a request to understand the coms behind that. We want to know why that was constructed, why the deputy Attorneys Office was involved. Were keen to learn we want clarity from the special counsels office and we want to learn about the construction of that statement. Who was involved, when, how, where, why. You mentioned your coauthor, Jason Leopold to be here. Where is he . Hes out reporting. I dragged one of my reporters who hasnt gotten a lot of sleep into the studio. Jasons past has been scrutinized because he was accused of making up stories 15plus years ago. Do you have any concerns about his credibility permanently . No concerns about his credibility. As soon as this story was published, a real mistake he made and owned 20 years ago. By his own admission, hes had a checkered past. Were talking a long time ago. Slightly more recent in the slightly more recent past, were talking the last 10, 15 years. Hes americas leading expert in the freedom of information act, hes been invited by cnn to train your team on the freedom of information act. He used freedom of information act to get Hillary Clintons emails. He was a pulitzer finalist last year about a series of stories of russian assassinations in the united kingdom. So, i take your point. What youre saying i think theres a lot to argue, a lot to talk about. I think going after the credibility of these reporters and of this organization is not is a mistake. Thats what rnc is doing and rudy said, quote, we they obviously have a hatred of the white house. The white house is very, very eager to take stories they dont like and turn them into battles between the white house and the media, between the white house and us, to divide the media, to avoid talking about the substance of the story. That jake tapper interview was incredible because giuliani came on there to attack us. I dont think he made any news about us, but he certainly raised the intensity of the attacks. Be and jake repeatedly pushed him into, well, wait a second. There were secret negotiations through the summer of 2016 about this giant glass apartment building, 300 million in revenue, the name trump, it would have been the tallest building in europe. This is not some side project. Giuliani twice really broke news. The negotiation went on through the whole campaign. Thats something they were denying. As you know, incredibly heatly all through the highstakes campaign. No matter how low rudys standards are, we have to keep our standards as high as possible. I know you agree with that. Absolutely. How long had this story been in the works, anthony . Months. Weve been reporting on trump moscow for two years ago. But this story with cohen to lie. A long time. We vet and run down every single aspect of this. And on thursday the story started to come to a close. You were ready to publish on thursday. Well, weve been drafting and and editing this for abges. I dont recall but weeks and weeks. This is something weve been working on through a long time. Its been through the normal, rigorous editing problem. Editors . Ult mim ed tors. It could it was ready to go. Lets take a look at what buzzfeed did to request comment from special counsel. This is first email from Jason Leopold, coauthor of the story, sent to the special counsels office at 1 50 p. M. On thursday. It says, anthony and i have a story coming up stated cohen was directed by trump to lie. Assume no comment from you but just wanted to check. Best, jason. To me, this is a shocking casual way to ask for comment for such a serious story. To you think that was an appropriate and sufficient way to ask for comment . Peter told the Washington Post or people close to him on background, if we had asked differently, he would have given us more information. We absolutely that was not we were reaching out to get information. Thats why you reach out. Thats why you reach out hours and hours before the story published. I dont think if you got an email from Jason Leopold saying, hey, were working on a story whose substance is that you were involved in an incredibly highstakes and incredibly shocking thing, that you would say, no, thats not a big deal. I think that we stated the heart of the story there. Again, though when i write people said had the email come in more formal detail he would have responded in more detail . We would have gotten more detail come on, one paragraph . Theres a dereliction of duty to we have broken the biggest stories about the special counsels investigation. We brought a lot of details about Paul Manaforts indictment soon before the indictment came down. We broke the information around the trump tower moscow that would be the heart of the cohen indictment months before. And i think anthony can tell you more about our correspondence with the special counsel about that, but i think that it has not been our experience that the special counsel is forthcoming with information. Lets look at the reply, though. The reply to jasons email two minutes later from the special counsels is why peter carr has the nickname peter no comment carr. When im sending an email to buzzfeed, its a bullet long email, everything thats included. I want to make sure everything has been checked first. Why didnt jason do that . Again, im carr has now said he would have responded in more detail if he had more detail. He could have said that two minutes later. He could have said, thats quite a statement. Tell me more pep said, well decline to comment. That is the correspondence weve had with him over the last two years as we have broken huge stories about his office. Youre putting the onus on him. Im saying no, im saying if we had understood that he would have responded he would have been more willing to give us information had we formatted had we given him we absolutely would have. Let me talk for a moment. Mr. Carr is a lovely spokesperson, we know him, weve dealt with him in the past on a number of occasions. Its never been my experience to get any signal, wave off, any go ahead from the special counsels office through that spokesperson. Its not the first time weve dealt with him. Certainly will probably not be the last. And you should realize hes speaking as one of the reporters. There havent been a lot of breaks out of the special counsels investigation. We have been on the outside breaking these huge stories that have subsequently been confirmed in the black letter of court filings. Thats true. Im concerned in this case there wasnt enough request for comment with the special counsels office. I told you what i think about that. What youre saying is you agree but you dont want to say that. This is a process question. Were getting way into the details of process around a story whose substance is not only extremely high stakes and important but also as we are talking about this, has been moving forward this morning because of what we published. Process question number two, then. Why publish thursday night as opposed to waiting for a third source or fourth source, knowing the stactionz of this story . We published because we were very, very confident in the sourcing of this story. We had been waiting. Its not like anthony walked into my office on thursday noon and said, i have this. Weve been developing on a long period of time, with sources, with a and without getting into the details of sources, with a set of sources who were involved in these huge revelations, where at times we were way ahead sometimes i write stories and say i have a number of sources. I have more than that but i cant reveal. Is that what happened in this case . It would i think you say what you say in the story and you stand by what you say in the story. I would say reporters sometimes describe someone as Senior Administration official and that can be shady and that identity is revealed and you want to say, come on. I want to say the story in this case, these are very narrow, very strong discriminate escrip. I think that is that is so whats going on then . Is there a fight between the special counsels office and Southern District of new york and one set of prosecutors are saying one thing and the were actively figuring that out. Were trying to figure how to parse this statement from the mueller team and figure out whats happening behind the team at doj and special counsel but were trying to get deeper inside the room where this happened. A lot of people look at the special counsels statement and say, he issued a flat denial. Its written in a legal way but theyre challenging the premise of your story. What does that feel like as a reporter . Never great but im solid. My sources are solid. This reporting is accurate. People are saying heads should roll at buzzfeed, youre hurting the News Business as a whole. What do you say . Ive been a reporter for 20 years. My first job was on on the loading dock with panama journal herald. They wouldnt give me a job inside. Ive been doing this again and again and again. The same fundamentals i learned covering city hall, covering the police, covering courthouses. That stands today, right . That is i use those same skills, the same rigor to cover the white house. This is going to be borne out, brian. This story is accurate. What if the sources are just wrong . Theyre not. Not intentionally. Not trying to hurt you but what if theyre wrong . Theyre not. Theyre not. Im confident. And i think this is obviously the highest stakes. There is no source like Robert Mueller. There arent other government officials who say, when this is wrong and were going to say how and why, this would produce the sort of reaction youre bringing here. Its its a very weird situation. Its a very highstakes version of a sorry were all familiar with. You say, how is it wrong . They wont tell you. A all you can do is continue to report why not raise the bar further. Because the stakes are so high, raise the standards higher. Our standards were extremely high. Youre saying its not about youre saying its not about quantity of sources its about quality, am i perceiving that correctly . Its also true that we, and particularly with the president s lawyer on television demanding a leak investigation. What about getting documents . There are a lot of limits around what we can say. I respect that. We have some in the story, we said some things on television. We stand by all of it. I think what weve discussed this morning in the context of the president s lawyer calling for a leak investigation, were being extremely careful. He also said you should be sued. Are you concerned about legal challenges . Were obviously prepared to defend ourselves and the story in every form. Youve been doing that for the last two years after publishing the dossier. Let me ask you about documents like the dossier. Anthony you said on cnn friday you have not seen the documents you describe in the story. Jason leopold said, we have seen the documents. Can you explain that to us . We cant get into the details. At this point because of the calls for a leak investigation and the sort of sensitivity around that matter, we cant go any further at all in order not to jeopardize our sources. We make a commitment to them. This is out in the culture now, ben. Look what snl said about you last night. Look, buzzfeed, i think its great. We all think its great that you want to help, but this isnt really what we need from you. Yall are buzzfeed. You do memes and lists. Buzzfeeds reputation on the line. How do you react . Thats a wonderful job. Its a joke theyve been making for seven years. Its dated because buzzfeed has its a joke we love and embrace. Buzzfeed includes a very, very wide range of media, including very silly entertainment. And i think unquestionably very, very serious journalism. Weve gotten people out of jail in chicago. Weve changed the way Sexual Assault is prosecuted in the United States and weve had a series of revelations about about the investigation of the of Donald Trumps relationship of russia from the same two reporters who published this. And youve been breaking news about it. If this story turns out to be wrong, do you feel your job on the line . I think were very confident in this reporting i worry about buzzfeeds brand as a whole. If this story is wrong, buzzfeed as a whole is in trouble. I appreciate your concern. But are you concerned forget about me. Arent you concerned about that . You know, were confident in the story and we are and i think he we also do think while there is right now and notabl a understandably a focus on the media story, the important story is about the relationship between the Trump Administration and russia. I agree with you. So lets talk about what you think happened here. Our reporting was central to that and forget the cameras are on. Its hard. It is hard. What really happened, is it that trump said to cohen, take care of me, dont screw me . Is it mob talk . It wasnt directing him to lie. It was, dont skroou screw this up, michael. Do you have thats what im wondering. But you guys tell me, is that what happened . We dont know. Were trying to get the exact language that was used. Well get there one day. We continue to report like mad, as we always do, but what we reported, the president of the United States directed Michael Cohen to lie to congress is accurate. That fundamentally accurate. Were going to get inside the room where it happened and bare it out. Weve taken this to ground. Here well go further to get inside that room. Are you fed up, ben, that the Mueller Investigation is taking this long and we dont have answers to these questions . No, i understand mueller. I understand the amount of stress and pressure they are under. We are certainly not trying to write the mueller report. Were not trying to project inside his head, inside his offices head. Were writing about the evidence and what our sources have told us about the evidence. But i think, you know, we its difficult, i think, in this media environment. I say this as somebody who came up in this environment and very much a part of it, to say we dont know ever