We have to give meaning to the word unacceptable. If we say russian actions are unacceptable, what are we going to do as to not accept them . For a toughi argue hardhitting sanctions policy to pushback on this. The two rounds of sanctions were decent first steps. They happened weeks ago. It is past time in opposing additional, hardhitting putin and hisnst allies. We have to shift from a policy of reacting to events on the ground. We need to preempt the aggression. Theeed to continue implementation of the sanctions. The legislation that was passed in 2012 imposed sanctions for abuse of human rights inside russia, we have to do both at the same time. The putin regime is a thoroughly corrupt, authoritarian regime that will do anything to stay in power. That is what we are seeing play out in ukraine. This is an extension of domestic politics. Putins paranoia which was heightened the decade ago he ain when hequed ag saw hundreds of thousands of people turn out on the streets of ukraine. Inside ukraine is being played out inside russia as well. On human crackdown rights since the breakdown of the soviet union. We are seeing putin thinking he is winning. This is a dangerous mindset for us to be faced with. Ukraine to be moldova very soon. T could be latvia and estonia members of the European Union. How we in the west rise to the challenge says as much about us as it does about russia. That is why we need to respond. Are we going to place business interest at of principles, and had of what we stand for, against the false topo further engagement or efforts for Strategic Partnership . Expectlationship can we with a regime that does not give a dam about the human rights of its own citizens . Putin has fabricated the threats to russia and ukraine. It is time to state the truth and let people know what is going on. It is no longer time for wait and see. It is time for action. It is time for solidarity with ukraine, moldova, georgia. Putin is the leader in authoritarianism. We need to see containment of his efforts, we need to pushback against what he is trying to do. At the end of the day, this is about a fight for freedom and Vladimir Putin poses one of the greatest threats to it. Andrew will go now and he will talk about how the time is to engage russia as opposed to containing. Thank you. Here and oure all presence is to honor mccains service and talk about issues because they are very important, as david just laid out. No one in this room will want to sugarcoat or excuse what russia is doing in ukraine. There is no excuse for the violence. I do not think there is anyone in this room who is not angry and worried. There are fragmentary reports of Armed Conflict in ukraine. No one wants to see Vladimir Putin have his vision of more nationalistic Foreign Policy, where National Identity drives the goals of all. We have got a long history in the 20th century, a very bitter history. No one in this room wants to push thee tremendous ukrainian people have made for freedom. Thist think anyone in room does not want to see russia pay a price for its conduct, in terms of international isolation. The question is, what do you do . I hope in our discussions we can talk about the options and the policy choices. One of the things people have latched onto is the concept of containment to read if you go back to the early days of the cold war, 1947, president truman faced a difficult situation with the possibility of greece and turkey slipping into the soviet embrace. At that time, he created the truman doctrine and put us on a course to build the institution and security mechanisms that foster the cold war and helps againstestern europe soviet encroachment. That was a very different period in history. For anyone to look at a onesizefitsall view and to think that that will work today, they need to look at today. Desperate are printed zoomable he is weak willed presumably as weak willed as. Hey were in the 1940s there are parallels. The world today is very different. We have a globalized economy. Russia is a part of the globalized economy. We are not in the same position as we were in the 1940s to dictate the role of russia. Russia wants to defeat radical extremism, concerns about chinas rise. Ourssume that arent interests are inherently nonflicting maybe a bit of a overstatement. There is not a to camp world that is emerging two camp world that is emerging. For me, why did it work . Why did it work in the cold war era . Why might not at work today . Containment worked in the cold war area because there was deterrence. We had a credible military threat to defend. Today, im not sure if anyone alieves that unless we make threat to use our military, that we will be able to defend each and every country that russia is causing trouble for. It is a largescale, openended defense commitment we are talking about. Also requires strong allies and partners around the world. You look at the way other powers are responding. You have to ask yourself, where are the partners for the United States . Can our approach succeed if we do it on our own . I have my doubts. Containment works when there are strong domestics inside the United States. The American People were willing to defeat soviet expansionism and great cost at great cost. Im not sure after 13 years of for whether the American People, when they look at the situation that is unfolding in Eastern Europe today, are willing to make comparable sacrifices. For that, thanks again. Anders will offer the rebuttal. Each team will have three minutes. This is a debate we need to have. First of all, what kind of a power is russia today . You seem to suggest that we dont know what russia wants. Isis very clear that russia a revisionist power. President putin has said and that the end of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe in the last century. Article saying 1939,itler was good until when he gathered the lands of austria, the sudetenland peacefully. This is the most official newspaper we see in russia today. What has happened is that putin speech onde a grand the importance of a russian speaking people in that it must be brought together. , how can we stop putin . There are two answers. One is that we stop them with war, which inevitably is happening now. So little has been done to stop them. Or we really throw in everything, in terms of sanctions, in order to stop them. Can we stop them with sanctions . I am not sure. I would certainly try to do something, rather than talking. Let me talk about, how strong is russia . Russia is much weaker than the soviet union. If you think of natos gdp, numeral six percent. Russia, 3 . Expenditure is less than 1 10 of the nato expenditure. Russia is weak. Is it vulnerable . You bet. If you count out russia from the International System or if you simply sanction the big state banks, russia is done. This will hit russia very hard. The market fluctuations during march russia can easily be hit much more. Where does the relevant Russian Technology come from . The United States. How can they develop oil and gas in the future . Through cooperation with American Companies most importantly, exxon. Russia is much more bold durable than we think. Vulnerable than we think. Their military equipment is dependent on cooperation with ukraine. President putin is heavily overplaying his hand. Only the foolish would not stand up to him. Thank you. Tom will bring us home and then we will open it up. We are home already. Thank you for moderating this event. It really is an important topic. It has been an important topic for the past 40 years. It is nice to see it is important once again. The important question that we need to ask right up front is, what are we trying to achieve . What do we want for the future . What do we want for ukraine . About all very passionate the advancement of democracy in the world. We want to see ukraine have a chance to develop a fullblooded democracy in their own country. They need to develop a National Consensus about where the country is going. They need to be able to put together the foundation of a prosperous economy going forward. Extent, ata certain this point, poses a threat to all of those. Where ukraine is located, it is also a country that is going to be important to ukraine possibility to build a prosperous economy going forward. Oil and gas and a great deal of the trade is with russia. How are you going to build a prosperous economy unless russia is part of the solution at some point . How do we get russia to be part of the solution . That is the question we need to focus on right now. The second question we have to ask is, what are we prepared to do . In particular, what sacrifices are we prepared to make in order to achieve this vision for ukraine . My colleagues have argued for tougher sanctions. They have argued that it is going to be easy because the russian economy is weak, because russia is corrupt. I would argue that the sanctions when only bite there they bite here. Where does this rank in our priorities . What sacrifices are we prepared to make in order to see these goals achieved in ukraine . What our leaders prepared to ask us to do to advance the cause of democracy and freedom in ukraine . Finally, we need to take a hard look at the question of ukraine. What is ukraine at this point . The lack of authority, a country that we thought was unified is beginning to break down into its constituent parts. The debate over what ukraine is is one that ukrainians need to have and they have not had the answer to that yet. What we need to do with russia is to create the space in which the ukrainians can have that debate in a productive way. To do that come in the United States need to combine resistance to what the russians have done up to this point, but to find a way to accommodate their interest, so that the have a moreill peaceful environment in which to work out their differences. I will start with a few questions as moderators prerogative. We are on twitter. Anders, i will start with you. Does seem to be that russia is Still Holding a lot of cards. Economic sanctions, although fairly weak right now, did not seem to be deterring putin. Play, economic cards to with ukraine, with oil and gas to europe, with trade. As we kiss he is, he is keeping the west offbalance and the we as he is, he is keeping the west offbalance is with him. Ative he is cozying up to the brick countries. He is still a member of the permanent security council. Who is holding the cards . It is easy to confuse strength. Is that the argue foolishness of putin and the vacuum in the west, that the west does not act, when the west acts, it can act. Hussein invaded and annexed kuwait, that was the it took halfon and a year before the west woke up, but awoke up. It woke up. We are seeing Russian Troops moving into Eastern Ukraine. This is totally an acceptable. It is meaningless to try to seek a new agreement with to back. Putin. Ukraine was the main success in the nonproliferation. It signed the budapest agreement. That was a memorandum, not a treaty. Russia. , the u. K. , and assured ukraine that it would have its security, national integrity. Now we know those assurances were absolutely nothing. , i would say,ian let us get the nuclear arms as quickly as possible after this important lesson we have learned from ukraine. I think the cossacks are thinking the same thing. Just a few seconds left. Im going to start cracking the whip. Sanctions will only bite there when they birtte here. The iranian economy is about russian economy. Is anyone feel the sanctions in iran . Absolutely not. This is not a relevant argument. Tom wem andrew and will give you another 30 seconds. His president putin doing what he is doing from a position of strength or is the United States right, is he a week Regional Power . Can argue that everyone is doing this out of weakness . On all sides. Putin does have a problem of how he is going to maintain russia going forward. There are questions about how firmly he sits over this russian political system. We have seen the euphoria and russia over the past several weeks, the increased popularity for putin. You can hardly find a person in moscow that is not euphoric ,bout what has happened following up on a very good olympics one russia finished first and so forth. Situation in the Eastern Ukraine is not so much that putin is in control, as he may be forced by events on the ground to move in a direction that he does not want to and does not fear comfortable with at this point, because of the way he has postured himself domestically and russia. Second, if you look at the west, i think we would all agree that what we do not have his unity. Talk to the germans about finding sanctions. Talk to the english about london. Bikingson we do not have sanctions biting sanctions and we have gone against certain individuals is because we cannot agree that what is happening in ukraine demands sacrifices and equal sacrifices in the west in order to deal with the problems that russia might have created. There isnt a leader who has yet stood up and made a forceful case why their population should make a sacrifice for one specific goal. Since you finished in your 30 seconds, in 30 seconds, what do you think president putins end game is . What are his ultimate ambitions . Does he want to annex this territory . Can i jump in . I think thats probably one of the cardinal problems of this whole crisis, no one knows. You talk to people in the u. S. Government, they dont know. You talk to people in european governments, they dont know. Weve entered a world where there are no effective channels with the russian government, and were basically all either in our public and private discussions sort of trading or talking points, and its all sort of formulaic and predictable, but at the end of the day, putin is rolling out initiatives, and we all basically find ourselves, as weve seen this week with the situation in east ukraine, where were just struggling to understand whats going o. Theres a lot of subterfuge and attempts to sow confusion. Its deliberate on the russian part, and were all stuck in a highly reactive mode. The only tool people have been able to latch on to are the sanctions, because precisely as tom said, theres no agreement about other steps. David, in your opening remarks, you talked about possibly president putin wanted to annex some of the baltic states, members that are members of the e. U. What do you recommend we do here . Are you talking about a Permanent Military presence in the baltic . Should nato be recalibrated as an antirussian alliance . Theres talk about should the u. S. Be organizing some of the regions along russias periphery that will give reassurance to the allies and send a message to putin . Do you recommend a course like this, or is that going to just antagonize them further . To be clear, i did not say that putin would want you said it was questionable whether he could. No, what he wants to do is to destabilize them. He would like nothing more than to show the e. U. And nato, because estonia and latvia are both members, that he can play with with members of those organizations. Im not saying he wants to annex part of their territory, moldova, case of maybe. Andrew is right. Most of us dont know what he has mind. Thats why i dont want us to be in reactive mode. I want us to be proactive, to preempt and prevent what putin is trying to do and to hit him with hard sanctions. Tom is also right. There isnt unity among western allies, but thats why u. S. Leadership is so critical. Lets remember that capital flight in the First Quarter of this year was a little more than it was all of last year. The ruebels value is in decline. The stock market is in decline. The russian economy is stagnating and predictions for growth are turning into predictions of decline. Thats one of putins Biggest Challenges right now. Its why he wants to deflect the tension from his internal challenges and to rally the troops. I would argue, tom, the reason it was so popular is it was so easy. It was bloodless. If there were body bags going back to russia, i bet you there wouldnt have been 70 support. The few people who are speaking out are getting fired from universities. News agencies are getting shut down. Theyre being threatened. Theyre being outed, if you will. It takes an incredibly courageous soul these days in moscow to criticize what putin is doing, but thats reflective of the ugly environment that putin has created in the 14 years hes been in power. It is incumbent upon the west to stand with those people and to stand with others. I never said sanctions would be easy, but i dont see an alternative to toughhitting sanctions right now. In fact, they should have been done weeks ago. What do you think, tom . Were talking about sanctions, but some of these actions besides sanctions such as what nato is considering, these type of things, could really further antagonize president putin. Look, i am probably the odd person out here. We dont know what putin might plan in detail, but it isnt as if putin hasnt talked for the past 12 years about what his vision for russia is. It sent as if he hasnt talked in the past two years about what his vision is for the former soviet space. Hes talked about a creation of he eurasian union, and to some end, that is going to be dominated by russia. Its an entity that doesnt make sense without ukraine for commercial, economic, and strategic reasons. The ultimate goal i think for putin is to bring ukraine into russias orbit as part of this eurasian unit. I also believe that he understands that this is something that is hes incapable of doing at this point. The goal in the immediate term is to at least create some leverage over the formation of a government in kiev, so that the government that ultimately forms is, as a minimum, neutral and not hostile to russia. So the game here is for ukraine over the long term. We are in initial phases of that. Second point i would make is that there is a genuine pride in russia today, and its not only because of crimea. Crimea, ive been in moscow a couple of times over the past couple of months. What really disturbed russians across the political spectrum was the unrelenting criticism of russia in the runup to the olympics, that they felt was unjustified, that was directed against russia as a peopl