Practically with questions from our two guests. So, let me introduce them. Reid wilson is at the washington post. Hes the govbeat reporter. He is following policy details with the states and federal government. James hohmann is at politico, and hes a political reporter there. Were going to start with reid wilson. Reid well, governor, lets talk about federalism for a second. A huge percentage of utah and most other western states are owned by the federal government. What challenge does that pose to you trying to govern a lot of land you do not have control over . Gov. Herbert well, you can appreciate how it would be if someone was telling you how to manage your backyard, sometimes you agree and sometimes you dont. We have the bureau of Land Management land in our state. Nearly 70 of the land mass is controlled or owned by the federal government. That is a lot. You know, it is designed to be multipleuse. We understand that concept with utah, there shouldnt be multiple use. Our farmers and ranchers have the ability to use that land access the water and so on for their agriculture. Also, Natural Resource extraction, Energy Development tourism and travel all of those things should be working in harmony and and we think sometimes it gets out of balance in the west and the concern we have because of that imbalance is a that it creates a lack of opportunity for everybody. We are trying to bring back a little balance in utah. I think that is exemplified in many of the western states today. Reid do you want to see some of that federal land returned to the states, and how would you do that . Gov. Herbert you know, utah has always been a public land state and it will continue to be a public land state. The question is, who manages the public lands . Is it the federal government or the state or a combination of both . I think the answer is it should be a combination. We have been concerned about the lack compatibility as to optimum use of some of our public lands. Some lands ought to be preserved and protected and others ought to be developed. We sometimes think the east, particularly washington, d. C. , is out of touch with the reality of the western lifestyle and what were trying to do to contribute to Energy Development, for example. I applaud the fact we have one of our congressmen, rep. Rob bishop along with congressman jason chaffetz, trying to resolve some of these conflicts that have been going on for 25 years in utah with what they call a public lands initiative, which will resolve 18 million acres of utah to say, this should be developed, this should be preserved and protected, this is for farming and ranching, this is for Energy Development. So, i think we are on the right road to resolve it and i think it should be a shared responsibility. James i would like to ask about medicaid. Your legislature, speaking big picture and then looking at the specific situation in utah, i have been struck by the dynamic that we have had several republican governors push for expansion of medicaid and their republican legislatures have blocked them. It happened earlier this month in tennessee with bill haslam , and in wyoming with matt mead. John kasich in ohio had to go around the republican legislature. Rick scott in florida wanted medicaid, it was dead on arrival with his republican legislature. Why do you think there is this disconnect between republican chief executives who want to figure out a way to expand coverage and republican state legislatures which seem diametrically opposed to it . Gov. Herbert well, i cannot speak for other states. I understand the concept that the governors have to take a broader view. It may be the 30,000 foot view that people talk about, to look at what is the best interest of all the people they represent in a state. In utah in particular, you know, the thing that is kind of peculiar is that we really do not in large support the Affordable Care act. I have been critical of that and led the charge in opposition. We sued. We ended up going through a process where we lost in the Supreme Court. Where, at least on the constitutionality of the Affordable Care act, because the Supreme Court said that under the taxation clause of the constitution, it was ok to have it. But they kind of changed the dynamic and said that Medicaid Expansion and medicaid itself is voluntary. Well, i understand that, but heres the problem. The taxes to pay for Medicaid Expansion and medicaid are mandatory. So in our state of utah, we send about 800 million a year back to washington, d. C. Under the Affordable Care act and we get no benefit unless we find some way to do that. So, we do not want to expand medicaid in utah. We have a Different Program called healthy utah, where we take the money back its our money and puts it back, into a Better Program than medicaid which includes different copays, and not as much assistance for those on the upper end, more skin in the game for the recipient, higher cost if you use the emergency room than you would have under medicaid, and a work requirement so that when you enroll as youth you get health care and automatically enrolled into a work program to help you get off of government assistance. You are there in the first place because you are not making enough money. So, if you are ablebodied and unemployed, we want to get you a job. If you are ablebodied and underemployed, we want to get you a better job. So, we think this is a better use of spending the money and i think we have a chance of kind of finding a new pathway here. Healthy michigan, healthy indiana, you hear a lot about that. One of the substantive concerns about Medicaid Expansion is that states are going to be left holding the bag. The federal government is making this promise. Two, three years, 100 . And then, all of a sudden they have given coverage to all these folks, and then you are on the hook as utah to pay for it and you will have to find new ways to get the revenue to do it. Do you think the government is good for the money . Gov. Herbert well [chuckles] i do not like the way they manage their budget here in washington, d. C. They dont live within their means. Contrary to what states typically do, certainly utah, we do not spend more than we take in. We dont have unnecessary debt. We save for a rainy day. We try to build the economy. But, the government itself, that is why we developed in utah a Pilot Program. If they renege on the premises if they do not complete their part of the bargain, then this program will be modified or eliminated. When you sign up for health utah you have to acknowledge that. You sign up knowing that this is a Pilot Program that can be modified or eliminated based on what we find going forward. That is why it is a Pilot Program. I do not know what the future will bring us as far as the federal government keeping their part of the bargain, but if they dont, as has happened in many states, as part of the Medicaid Expansion, they have said, if it doesnt happen we will get out. Weve had the same provisions in our healthy utah program. Again, well see what happens. I would hope they would keep their part in the bargain. Medicaid in utah has been there since 1966, 1967. They have always made the payments on the 7030 match. Going forward, i expect they can. They should. There are a lot of ways to cut the fat in washington, d. C. And find more efficiency so they can pay their bills. So, it is the law of the land. Until that law has changed, we have to deal with what is the reality today. Reid let me ask you about the next challenge to the Affordable Care act. Matthews v. Burwell, the case that is before the Supreme Court right now. If the court rules against the Affordable Care act and says that healthcare. Gov states arent eligible for the subsidies, how are you going to react in utah . You have suddenly got hundreds of thousands of people who thought they were getting subsidies and now get no subsidies. Again, that is part of the flaw in the Affordable Care act. The act was flawed. It has certainly been too partisan. It has divided the country. There is a lot to be critical about with the Affordable Care act. I am one of them. That being the case, im happy to deal with what the reality is. If the law changes because of king v. Burwell, we will react and adjust to that very situation. If it tumbles down the Affordable Care act, i say great, we ought to go back and start over. In my case, if the act fails that means the 800 million we were sending to washington will cease to go there. Frankly, a good rule of thumb for most of us as governors is do not take the money from us in the first place. You know, you do not need to take more money to develop onesizefitsall programs for the state. If we want to develop a program, we can do it ourselves. We are the laboratories of democracy. So, dont take it from us in the first place. If you take it, give it back. Give it back as a block grant with maximum flexibility. We will find better, more efficient ways to take the responsibility. Reid im sorry, i cited the wrong case. Thank you for correcting me. If the king v. Burwell case goes the other way, in the more immediate sense, you will suddenly have thousands of people who do not have care and get the subsidies. Is there an immediate answer you can come up with or does it have to be that sort of longterm rethink of Health Care Reform . Gov. Herbert it is always tough to give answers to hypothetical questions. We know theres potential out there, we have certainly talked to the leadership in the house and the senate about what might happen. Is the court going to give us some time . I expect that the court will make a decision by the end of the year and make a judgment. We will get together with our legislature and our medical community and the people of utah and decide how to deal with that and what is in the best interest of the utah taxpayer. I expect other states will do the same. Hohmann can i ask a political question . Utah, always an interesting state politically. You toppled an incumbent governor as a Lieutenant Governor on the ticket back in the day. Mike lee is going to have a Convention Next year. Do you think he is vulnerable to a challenge . Do you think he will win reelection . Gov. Herbert maybe i misunderstood, you said i toppled an incumbent . Hohmann im sorry, when you ran for governor. Gov. Herbert yes, i ran for governor. There were seven or eight of us who ran for governor. I ended up partnering with gov. Jon huntsman, former ambassador of china, and he ran for president here in this last cycle as you know. He and i joined together. In utah there is a partnership. Governor and Lieutenant Governor run as a ticket. It was a great time. A good run for us. It led me to have the opportunity to be the governor of utah and i have run and won my own term now. But you know, dynamics of politics are sometimes hard to predict. Utah has always been a pretty red state. We are conservative. We have been consistently conservative over a long period of time, and i would say that is has been one of the secrets to our success. The predictability. The policies. Smaller government. Healthy economy. More empowerment in the private sector. Our Unemployment Rate is 3. 5 . Our growth gdp is twice the national average, 4. 1 percent growth now in utah. Our system, our policies, our values are working very well in utah. Senator lee reflects a lot of that. Certainly he has been a conservative. Maybe a conservatives conservative. I think he got a bad rap with the federal shutdown. Got more blame than probably he deserved. His polling was in the low 40s, now it is in the low 50s, he is certainly coming back. I think he will be hard to if anybody has an idea, there is a lot of speculation and rumor out there. Not a lot of substance. I think he would be hard for anybody to topple if they decided to challenge him. Reid let me talk about an issue that is huge in the west that i dont think gets much coverage east of the mississippi. There are 11 states in which a bird called the sage grouse has habitat. The department of the interior is considering listing that bird as an endangered species and that has the potential to lock up tens of millions of acres of land. Talk about the challenge you face in utah and sort of how you are trying to protect the sage grouse on your own. Gov. Herbert well, we have had a plan in place for some time, and we started working on that a number of years ago. We care about the sage grouse and we do not want to see it listed. I think others out there have their own agenda. They do not care about the sage grouse but they want to use it to stop Energy Development. Coal extraction. Natural gas. Oil drilling. That is the political reality in the marketplace. That being said, we have developed a plan based on input from all of the stakeholders , from the Business Community to the industry, Business Leaders and Community Leaders and the Environmental Community and came up with a plan that protects 94 of the sage grouse habitat in utah. The good news is for the sage grouse is it is working. We had it increase significantly in the last couple years and in fact just this past year, we have had an increase in the sage grouse population approaching 40 . So, our plan is working. I also created an executive order that i signed here just a few weeks ago to put in place these management plans we have been working on to protect the sage grouse. So, we are a little concerned that the federal government has not embraced what we are doing as wholeheartedly as they should. They asked us to do this and now they are being standoffish as far as embracing and approving our plan. I am concerned about a species that is prolific in nine states that people are saying is somehow endangered. I mean, that seems a little bit odd. At least from a utah perspective, were doing everything we can to protect the sage grouse and we see our efforts taking shape. Reid do think you are actually getting a fair shake from fish wildlife, the department of the interior, the people who will make this decision, or has the decision all ready been made and they are moving towards it . Gov. Herbert i feel like we are coming together on this. I think they see we have made a goodfaith effort. It is hard to argue against results. I think there is been a concern that the science the federal government is using is not accurate and has been suspect. Again, they do not seem to be willing to go back to review the science. When they are called upon, it seems a little bit weak when you look at the science of the sage grouse. But i am very comfortable we are working together on this and we will get the right outcome. The western governors association, which im the past chair of, is doing a great job at bringing this together. Were periodically meeting with the interior and fish wildlife and i am hopeful well get this resolved. Susan you have nine minutes left. James let me ask you about what conservatives see as overreach by the federal government, immigration. Utah is one of the states that has joined the lawsuit trying to stop president obamas executive action on immigration. This past week, a federal judge temporarily halted implementation of the executive order. Where do you see this case ending up . What will be the disposition . Is this something that is clearly so unconstitutional that federal courts will intervene, or do you think it will happen even if a lot of states have signed on to this suit trying to stop it . Gov. Herbert well james, you make me think of the old saying by yogi berra, i hate to make predictions, particularly about the future. Who knows where it is going to end up and where its going to be resolved. But, immigration is in emotional issue. I am sure it is not unique to utah, but we have had a lot of frustration because of the lack of action on the congresss part. It is their responsibility to resolve this issue and to do something. Do is the operative word. Something can be defined as a little or a lot. But do something. We finally got so frustrated in utah that we decided to try to make our own policies as a state and we said were going to enforce the laws you are not forcing. Everything should be based on the role of law. We wanted to see if we could, in fact, find a better way to solve the problem. We got challenged in court by the Obama Administration saying, well, you cannot go around the congress. This is their responsibility not yours as the state of utah. And although we won on some points in court, we lost on the bigger points where they said this is a federal responsibility. Well, guess what . We were frustrated with the congress, now we have the president frustrated with the congress and he says, i am going to go around the congress. And we said, wait a minute. [laughter] we have already had this debate and discussion. You challenged us. Not fair. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. So now were suing him. Saying you have overstepped your executive authority and you cannot go around congress, either. And frankly, it is not about the results he is trying to get, it is about who has the responsibility to put policy in place. Well, its the congress. We called on the congress to immediately do some immigration reforms. Do something. Even if it is just as minimal as securing the border. Everybody agrees. Do it, then. Do it. James how much blame do Congressional Republicans deserve for the failure to pass immigration . This is kind of both sides have mud on their hands here because it has been politicized or is it the way the Obama Administration in the way that they approached the issue . Gov. Herbert well, there has certainl