Senator quayle, that if you give any of us 200 billion worth of hot checks a year, we can create an illusion of prosperity. But sooner or later that credit card mentality isnt going to work. And i want to bring to the white house a sense of strength and fiscal responsibility which will build a good Strong Foundation under which this country, or above which country can move, grow, invest, and build the best america for its people and for our kids and our grandkids. Mr. Vice president , your response. The governor has to balance the budget in his state he is required to by law. He has raised taxes several times. I wish he would join me, as a matter of fact, in appealing to the American People for the balanced Budget Amendment for the federal government and for the lineitem veto. [applause] id like to have that lineitem veto for the president , because i think that would be extraordinarily helpful. And i wont do one other thing that hes had to do took 29 million out of his state pension fund thats equivalent at the federal level of taking out of the Social Security trust fund. Im not going to do that. I wont do that. [applause] and so im still a little unclear as to whether hes for or against the tax increase. I have been for the taxpayer bill of rights all along. And this idea of unleashing a whole bunchan army, a conventional force army, of irs agents into everybodys kitchen i mean, hes against most defense matters, and now he wants to get an army of jrs auditors going out there. Im against that. I oppose that. [boos and applause] im going to say this and im going to say it once to every person in this auditorium. What these candidates are about is of utmost seriousness to the american voters; they should be heard and you should be quiet. If you are not quiet, i am going to implore the candidates to do something about quieting their own partisans. But we cannot get through this program with these outbursts. Margaret warner for governor dukakis. Good evening, governor, mr. Vice president. Governor, you won the first debate on intellect, and yet you lost it on heart. Just a minute. Youll get your turn. I dont know if the Vice President agrees with that. The American Public admired your performance, but didnt seem to like you much. Now, Ronald Reagan has found his personal warmth to be a tremendous political asset. Do you think that a president has to be likable to be an effective leader . Margaret, may i go back and just say to the Vice President that i didnt raid the pension fund of massachusetts you are dead wrong, george, we didnt do that. As a matter of fact, im the first governor in the history of my state to fund that pension system, and im very proud of that. [applause] i have been in politics for twentyfive years, margaret. Ive won a lot of elections. Ive lost a few, as you know, and learned from those losses. I won the democratic nomination in fiftyone separate contests. I think im a reasonably likable guy. [laughter, scattered applause] im serious though. I think im a little more lovable these days than i used to be back in my youth when i began in my state legislature. But im also a serious guy. I think the presidency of the United States is a very serious office, and i think we have to address these issues in a very serious way. So i hope and expect that i will be liked by the people of this country as president of the United States. I certainly hope i will be liked by them on the 8th of november. [laughter] but i also think its important to be somebody who is willing to make those tough choices. Now, we have just heard two or three times from the Vice President hes not going to raise taxes. I repeat, within days after you made that pledge, you broke it. You said, well, maybe as a last resort well do it. And you supported legislation this year thats involved tax increases not once, but twice. So that pledge isnt realistic, and i think the Vice President knows it. I think the people of this country know it. The fact of the matter is that the next president of the United States is going to have to go to the white house seriously, he is going to have to work with the congress seriously. He cant turn to the congress and blame them for the fact that we dont have a balanced budget and that we have billions and billions of dollars in red ink. And i am going to be a president who is serious, i hope and expect will be liked by the American People. But more than that, to do the kind of job that im elected to do, will do it with as much good humor as i can, but at the same time will do it in a way which will achieve the goals we want for ourselves and our people. And i think we know what they are a good strong future, a future in which there is opportunity for all of our citizens. One minute from the Vice President. Questiont think its a of whether people like you or not to make you an effective leader. I think its whether you share the broad dreams of the American People, whether you have confidence in the peoples ability to get things done or whether you think it all should be turned over, as many of the liberals do, to washington, d. C. You see, i think its a question of values, not likability or lovability, its a question in Foreign Affairs in experience, knowing world leaders, knowing how to build on a superb record of this administration in arms control, because youd know exactly how to begin. You have to learn from experience that making unilateral cuts in Defense System is not the way that you enhance peace. Youve got to understand that it is only the United States that can stand for freedom and democracy around the world and we cant turn it over to the United Nations or other multilateral organizations. It is, though, trying to understand the heartbeat of the country. And i know these campaigns get knocked a lot, but i think id be a better president now for having had to travel to these communities and understand the family values and the importance of neighborhood. [applause] please. Margaret warner for the Vice President. Id like to follow up on that mr. Vice president. The tenor of the campaign youve been running, in terms of both the issues and your rhetoric has surprised even some of your friends. Senator Mark Hatfield whos known your family a long time and who knew your father, the late senator prescott bush, said, and i quote, if his father were alive today, im sure his father would see it as a shocking transformation. Is senator hatfield right . What was he referring to . He was referring to your performance in the campaign. I think my dad would be pretty proud of me, because i think weve come a long, long way and i think, you know three months ago, i remember some of the great publications in this country had written me off. And what ive had to do is define, not just my position, but to define his and i hope ive done it fairly. And the reason ive had to do that is that he ran on the left in the democratic primary, ran firmly and ran with conviction and ran on his record. And then at that Democratic Convention, they made a determination and they said there, ideology doesnt matter, just competence. And in the process the negatives began. It wasnt me that was there at that convention. Thank god i was with jimmy baker camping out and i didnt have to hear all the personal attacks on me out of that Democratic Convention. And im not the one that compared the president of the United States rotting from like a dead fish from the head down. I didnt do that. But i have defined the issues and i am not going to let governor dukakis go through this election without explaining some of these very liberal positions. Hes the one a liberal, traditional liberal a progressive liberal democrat. Hes the one that brought up, to garner primary votes, the whole question of the aclu. And i have enormous difference with the aclu on their politic agenda. Not on their defending some minority opinion on the right or the left. I support that. But what i dont like is this left wing political agenda and therefore i have to help define that and if hes unwilling to do it, if he says ideology doesnt matter, i dont agree with him. [applause] one minute from governor dukakis. Well, margaret, weve heard it again tonight and im not surprised, the labels. I guess the Vice President two or three times, said i was coming from the left. In 1980, president reagan called you a liberal for voting for federal gun control. And this is something republicans have used for a long time. They tried it with Franklin Roosevelt and harry truman and john kennedy. Its not labels. Its our vision of america. And we have two fundamentally different visions of america. The Vice President is complacent, thinks we ought to stick with the status quo, doesnt think we ought to move ahead, thinking things are okay as they are. I dont. I think this is a great country, because weve always wanted to do better, to make our country better, to make our lives better. Weve always been a nation which was ambitious for america and we move forward. And thats the kind of america i want. Thats the kind of leadership i want to provide. But i dont think these labels mean a thing and i would hope that tonight in the course of the rest of this campaign, we can have good solid disagreements on issues. Theres nothing the matter with that. But lets stop labeling each other and lets get to the heart of the matter which is the future of this country. [applause] Andrea Mitchell, for the Vice President. Mr. Vice president , governor. Mr. Vice president , let me return for a moment to the issue of the budget, because so much has already been put off limits in your campaign that most people do not believe that the flexible freeze alone will solve the problem of the deficit. So, lets turn to defense for a moment. Pentagon officials tell us that there is not enough money in the budget to handle military readiness, preparedness, as well as new Weapons Systems that have been proposed, as well as those already in the pipeline. You were asked in the first debate what new Weapons Systems you would cut. You mentioned three that had already been canceled. Can you tonight share with us three new Weapons Systems that you could . If i knew of three new Weapons Systems that i thought were purely waste and werent protected by the congress, they wouldnt be in the budget. They would not be in the budget, but you want one now . Ill give you one, that hmet, that heavy truck, thats cost what is it 850 million and the pentagon didnt request it and, yet, a member of congress, a very powerful one, put it in the budget. I think we can save money through this whole very sophisticated concept, andrea, that i know you do understand of Competitive Strategies. It is new and it is very, very different than whats happened, but its not quite ready to be totally implemented. But its very important. I think we can say, through the Packard Commission report and im very proud that david packard, the originator of that report, is strongly supporting me. So, its not a question of saying our budget is full of a lot of waste. I dont believe that. I do think this. Were in the serious stages of negotiation with the soviet union on the strategic arms control talks. And were protecting a couple of options in terms of modernizing our strategic forces. My secretary of defense is going to have to make a very difficult decision in which system to go forward with. But we are protecting both of them. We are moving forward with negotiations and, you see, i just think it would be dumb negotiating policy with the soviets to cut out one or the other of the two options right now. The soviets are modernizing. They continue to modernize and we cant simply say weve got enough Nuclear Weapons, lets freeze. We cant do that. We have to have modernization, especially if we achieve the 50 reduction in strategic weapons that our president is taking the leadership to attain. And, so, thats the way id reply to it and i believe we can have the strongest and best defense possible if we modernize, if we go forward with Competitive Strategies and if we do follow through on the Packard Commission report. Governor dukakis, one minute. Well, andrea, weve just had another example of why the Vice President s mathematics just dont add up. I think you know because youve covered these issues, that theres no way that we can build all of the weapons the Vice President says he wants to build within the Defense Budget. Everybody knows that including the people at the pentagon. Now, my defense secretary is going to have a lot to do with those decisions, but its going to be the president whos going to have to ultimately decide before that budget goes to the congress what Weapons Systems are going to go and what are going to stay. We are not going to spend the billions and trillions that mr. Bush wants to spend on star wars. Were not going to spend billions on mxs on railroad cars, which is a weapons system we dont need, cant afford and wont help our defense posture at all. Were not going to spend hundreds of millions on a space plane from washington to tokyo. Those are decisions that the chief executive has to make. Yes, were going to have a strong and credible and Effective Nuclear deterrent. Were going to go forward with the stealth and the d5 and the advance Cruise Missile and good conventional forces. But the next president of the United States will have to make some tough and difficult decisions. Im prepared to make them, the Vice President is not. Governor, andrea has a question for you. Governor, continuing on that subject, you say we have to do something about conventional forces. You have supported the submarine launch missile, the d 5 you just referred to. Yet, from jerry ford to jimmy carter to Ronald Reagan, there has been a bipartisan consensus in favor of modernizing the land based missiles. Now, you have ruled out the mx and the midgetman. More recently, some of your aides have hinted at some flexibility you might show about some other new form of missile. Can you tell us tonight why you have rejected the wisdom of people as diverse as sam nunn, henry kissinger, al gore, people in both parties, and what type of land based missile would you consider . Well, andrea, today we have 13,000 Strategic Nuclear warheads, on land, on air and in the sea. Thats an incredibly powerful nuclear deterrent. I dont rule out modernization, and there are discussions going on now in the congress, i know with the pentagon, about a less expensive modernized landbased leg of the triad. But there are limits to what we can spend. There are limits to this nations ability to finance these Weapons Systems. And one of the things that the Vice President either ignores or wont address is the fact that you cant divorce our military security from our Economic Security. How can we build a Strong America militarily thats teetertottering on a mountain of debt . And if we go forward with the kinds of policies that the Vice President is suggesting tonight and has in the past, that debt is going to grow bigger and bigger and bigger. So military security and Economic Security go hand in hand. And we will have a strong and effective and Credible Nuclear Deterrent. Were going to have conventional forces that are well maintained, well equipped, well trained, well supported. And we have Serious Problems with our conventional forces at the present time, and theyll get worse unless we have a president who is willing to make some of these decisions. And we also have important domestic priorities, in education and housing and health care, in economic development, in job training, in the environment. And all of these things are going to have to be addressed. Thats why i say again to all of you out there who have to deal with your Household Budgets and know how difficult it is that the next president has to do the same. I want the men and women of our armed forces to have the support they need to defend us, the support they need when they risk our lives to keep us free and to keep this country free. But we cannot continue to live on a credit card. We cannot continue to tell the American People that were going to build all of these systems, and at the same time, invest in important things here at home, and be serious about building a strong and good america. And thats the kind of america i want to build. One minute for the Vice President. I think the foremost [applause] can we start the clock over . I held off for the applause. You ca