Many of the problems we saw at the end began at the very beginning. I spoke about the attempt to control all institutions and all parts of the economy and political life and social life. One of the problems is that when you do that, when you try to control everything, you create opposition and potential dissidents everywhere. If you tell all artists they have to paint the same way and to artist says no, i want paint another way, you have just made him into a political visited. Political dissident. If you want to subsidize housing in this country and the populace agrees that it is something we should subsidize, put it on the Balance Sheet and make it clear and make it evident and make everybody aware of how much it costs. But when you deliver it through these thirdparty enterprises, fannie mae and freddie mac, when you deliver the subsidy through a Public Company with private shareholders and executives who can extract a lot of that subsidy for themselves, that is not a very good way of subsidizing homeownership. Anneristopher hitchens, applebaum, and Gretchen Morgan said are three of the Gretchen Morgenson are three of the stories in sundays at eight. Washington journal continues. Host we continue with our discussion of Lyndon Johnsons vision for a Great Society. All this week on washington journal we are talking about several of them. We talked about the Voting Rights act, education, just talked about immigration as well. Right now we want to focus on housing, president johnson signing into law in 1965 and omnibus housing act that was part of a series of omnibus bills on housing. Joining us for this discussion is cant watkins, the chair of the National Economy of housing and sustainable development. Lets go back before 65. When did the federal government start getting involved in housing for americans, and why . Greta, actually, it was way back in the 1700s, although it was more land use and Land Development and the sale of federal land surplus land we might call it today, but it wasnt then. It was new land. Get intoeally didnt untilusing business settlers could build on it and that led to cities in a different kind of housing in the 1800s and the 1900s. This idea thatt the federal government needs to provide affordable homes, whether to renters or owners . When did the discussion of that begin and why . Guest different words were used to describe a certain median income, and people who could afford to live in the housing. Mortgages didnt take place until quite late in the life cycle of housing. Probably began to get up into mid1900s,900s and and when the depression came, the housing crisis began in a much more larger scale. That is where the federal government was generally called into by the housing industry. Host what led to johnson signing this ominous activ of 65 . What comes before it . Guest i think there was a backdrop to that. Certainly fha was the leading guarantor of singlefamily housing, with issues in the 30s 40s from roosevelt on dealing with how you provide some guarantees and reduce risk. That was always the issue of how you reduce risk. When you came up into the kennedy administration, a number of task forces were developed that were continued under johnson, and out of that came this dichotomy of who would deal with housing only or do we deal with urban development . Housing in a number of agencies has been informed over the years dealing with both. All independent, like a lot of the mergers we saw in other areas you have been covering. This took place in 1961. That was relevant for a number of other agencies. And that morphed into a cabinet department, because in washington, of course, bureaucracies like to grow, and cabinet officers are more independent agencies. With it he creates the housing and urban development department. Guest that is correct. Host the hud secretary and position that we know of today. Why . And what is huds responsibility . Guest again, it is this dichotomy between the housing industry and financing that, whether it is through secondary markets like fannie mae and freddie mac, which reformed over the years, and this whole idea of we are more than just housing, we need to have a mechanism by which we deal with students as they grow and as the Rural America became the urban america. All that was soda happening by all that was sort of happening certainly by the 60s, after world war ii and on, dealing with suburbia, dealing with the inner cities, dealing with how you provide shelter within that environment. Host president johnson authorizes nearly 8 billion for housing and rental assistance, rent subsidies for low income people and new housing projects, grants to help lowincome homeowners relocate properties, aid Small Businesses by rehabilitating urban property as well. Is it a success . What happens . Guest it was one of many bills that generally, housing bills years. Sed very few sustainability, if you will, and there is pressure from Interest Groups to modify and tweak the Financial System that mitigates this risk in providing what we call for double housing what we call Affordable Housing now. But all housing in reaching the middle class come of the whole concept of homeownership versus rental housing continues today to be a third rail issue in some cases. Host take a look at the numbers from the center on budget and policy priorities. 35 , or 41 million households them are renters. 4. 9 million of low income households receive federal rental assistance. 56 of the cells holds are elderly or disabled. 36 are families with children. 14 are located outside of metropolitan areas. 4. 9 million are low income households that receive federal rental assistance. Is there enough to support the need . Is there enough housin assistance to support the need in this country . Guest depends on who you ask, of course, and that continues to be the raging conversation or debate within both the housing industry and the whole urban area itself. Congress obviously make many of those decisions, and depending on the politics of that particular fungus and that particular administration, that particular congress and that particular administration, this waxes and wanes. The answer in short, in my opinion, is that there is always a need to fill gaps and deal with changing demographics in terms of the use, in terms of the elderly. All of these things change. And in terms of who can afford homeownership versus the whole concept of rental. Host what is the Current Situation like today . Guest the Current Situation is of a number of pressing factors such as Student Loans have had a big impact on the new generation deciding whether they can afford more structure. We find that making an impact on what kinds of housing today by or dont buy. In addition, you have got greater increase in elderly could you have a different debate about do we have elderly. N place or do we relocate how do we move all of these infamous changes in population around infamous changes of population around . Rental is essentially at the moment inching upward. Thatomeownership goals have been bipartisan, more or less, have never reached much about 65 , and are going down now. Host , which money is spent on Housing Assistance in this country how much money is spent on Housing Assistance in this country . Guest depends on how you define Housing Assistance, again. Some people would say that includes all the mortgage tax deductions, including second homes. That has been a big boon to realtors, appraisers, mortgage bankers, and many others, in big it ishere how and how it flows. The other aspect is what many are calling workforce housing, which is how you do with persons , and thent level Affordable Housing perhaps being relegated to what we used to call low Income Housing. Host we will get to calls now. Charles is in naperville, illinois, republican caller. We are talking about Housing Assistance in this country, going back to president johnsons vision for a socalled Great Society. He passed legislation to help out with low income and middle income americans. What are your thoughts, what are your questions, charles . Caller since lbjs motivation and inspiration for the Great Society was to end poverty in the United States, 50 years later, after billions of dollars spent, are there more people in poverty today or less . Host kent watkins, maybe you can answer that in the scope of housing and housing situation. Guest right, because i am not a poverty economist. But certainly, again, it depends on which groups are taking the. Ata and interpreting it ase groups would say, such the low Income Housing coalition, that there is a greater need. Other groups would say that we are taking care of this and we are on the right track. Host how many different federal programs are there for Housing Assistance . How many different agencies are doing it . It is not just hud. Guest good point. I think this is one of the things that happened, beginning to showcase the other departments that are involved. Traditionally you thought of hud and maybe the department of agriculture is providing both rural and urban housing, sort of a straight cut in the perception of people out there, including ourselves. But when the recession hit, we began to be much more aware of what the u. S. Department of was going to do and what they could do, both through the irs in terms of tax credits as well as parts of the have thet and you Federal Reserve taking a much more active role, even though they have been there from the very beginning. So at least of those two entities have taken a front seat. Hud over the years has changed since the johnson days. Ud part of more of a hud, urban development, in that mass transit, water and sewer facilities those agencies play a role. Agencies name 10 other. That role has been taken away from hud. Department of justice would be another agency that gets involved in other aspects. Ways player in some a dead player in some ways, but it continues to play a very important role. Host joe in indiana. Caller there is so much to say and so little time to say it. I dont get a chance to watch all of cspans programming, but every thing i have seen about , your guestsociety have largely been in support of johnson. Risk was always the biggest thing and housing and the democrats are constantly trying to promote the illusion that they can get rid of risk. They have never been able to get rid of risk. I would like to know if there has been any success at all in getting rid of any kind of risk that he knows about and whether the big risk is getting somebody like Lyndon Johnson in charge of things and then he creates Something Like the unified budget which passes on the risk two 2007 1 all caps is and we 2007 when it all collapses and all the people with Lyndon Johnson are long dead and do not have to there any accountability. Tot can we trace 2007 back lbj . Guest every congress tends to ,ick the can down the road whether with housing, immigration, or many other issues. I think this was just another issue or another phase in Public Policy makers and politicians attempting badly, maybe not, to listen to what the needs of the population was and to experiment with the demonstration cities act. The 1968 housing act, which attempted to balance new Community Development in inner cities, homeownership, and rental. The argument will never be over. The goal line keeps changing. The population keeps changing. , chairman of the budget committee, potentially the chairman of the ways and means committee, is out with a new book. Forward. the way he has been on a tour talking about poverty. Tanks at one of the think in washington putting out his proposal and his ideas. I want to have our viewers take a listen to what he is talking about involving housing. [video clip] the public and private sector work together, we can offer a more were civilized, customized offering. ,hen the recognizes needs problem, and potential. In opportunity grant. It would consolidate left and federal programs into one stream of funding to participating states. The idea would be providing different ways of aid. More flexibility in exchange for more accountability. My thinking is get rid of the bureaucratic formulas and put the emphasis on results. Ryan in a was paul speech recently. The government executive says the 11 programs he is talking about, the 11 federal lowincome programs, include section eight housing choice program, which provide choices for very low income families, the elderly. The Public Housing capital operating fund, as well. Consolidate these programs and have it done on a local level, based on peoples needs. What do you make of this . Guest i think he will have to put it in the context of yearsion over a number of since the Great Society and before. All sorts of ideas are put on the table and some make it historythe legislative and it has come from both parties, which i think is wonderful. Needs there were 300 programs that were grant programs. This may be the time again. Host we are talking with kent johnsonsout lyndon vision for a Great Society, part of that was housing. He signed into law in 1965, the omnibus housing act. You have a pen. Where is it from . Guest i do. This is not the pen that signed hud into law. Onwas one of the pens used august 1, 1958, used by the president. They have a bunch of pens they give out afterward. That was a major piece of legislation that had housing goals of 10 million over a tenyear period of Affordable Housing. That was not continued, but there are many attempts to keep this conversation going. It is nonpartisan and we have a number of people every month, once a month we have people come fromo are Academy Fellows whatever direction to provide these kind of ideas. We had a conversation with congressman ryan and it was very spirited and it was very good. Each one that we have adds to that breadth of knowledge that we will see replicated up on the hill. Talking about the Civil Rights Movement and the impact of the war on poverty. Is in westborough, massachusetts. Independent. Caller thank you for cspan. Good morning. Im stuck in massachusetts, we achusetts. The family has to stick together as a clan. People are learning how to make cash because all the jobs, engineering is where i work, they are gone. Exist in a state with no state taxes. I dont pay taxes anymore. Host is that the reason why housing is not affordable . You cant afford a house. You have to stick together. You cant put the kid out of 18. Guest im not quite sure how to answer that. You are correct in describing some of the emerging factors that are happening at this place in time. Hopefully congress and whichever administration comes in will continue to try to deal with this and not kick the can too far down the road. Host washington, d. C. , republican caller. Discussions topic of answered a question i had in about the distribution of funding to communities. 14 is provided to communities outside of the metropolitan area. Im the biological mother of four kids, of which i now share custody after a divorce. Im also an advocate. My unique household is the client of a had section eight program. Hud section eight program. It allows the clients to rent an Affordable Apartment or home in any zoning area of the community in any state. It also allows unique households to transition as they are trying , if they are aspiring to become more productive citizens, such as transitioning to a different socioeconomic status. Would you agree . Guest yes and again i think this was a bipartisan attempt over the years with Lyndon Johnson, as you pointed out act. , as part of the 1965 that was one attempt to deal and gets cap gap away from Public Housing production and increase production through the private sector and make up the difference in rent and income through a subsidy. Networked into a Republican Program by and large or a republican idea called section eight that was also based on a housing administration. , which wese factors are still working with, may morph into a new program. I think one of the issues that is brought up by those who look at the ryan program is that the aar that when you consolidate number of programs, whether it is section eight or something else, that the resulting dollar and theecomes less single program, if you want to call it that. I think the second thing that is is what is the mechanism for implementing this . If it is through the states, that becomes a political issue for mayors and the federal proponents. It is a very useful part of the conversation in the next couple of years. Host randy in iowa. Democratic caller. Caller i have been listening to the conversation and i find it interesting, the words morph and evolved. Ow hud has the one thing that struck me was the conversation somebody earlier was talking about about laying the blame for the 20072008 debacle back on the 1965 and Lyndon Baines johnson. That the seems Republican Administration under george bush, that 20072008 a banking andinly real estate deregulation problem , that the regulations allowed this market to crash. Would you comment on that . Guest thank you. I grew up in iowa. Thanks for calling in. [laughter] view, which is i think both parties have to jb contributed greatly in terms of housing tools