There is some evidence that they dont pay into the trust fund and that has a lot of environmentalists upset. They want to be assured that these companies will pay. Host we appreciate you coming on to talk about this, and obviously a topic that will be talking about early on in the next congress. Comes onYochi Dreazen to talk about his new book the indivisible the invisible front. Taking your calls on the Police Shooting over the weekend in new york. We will be right back. Look at the programs you will find Christmas Day on the cspan networks. Holiday the city start at 10 00 a. M. With the lighting of the National Christmas tree, followed by the white house decorations with First Lady Michelle Obama and the lighting of the capitol christmas tree. And just after 11 30 p. M. , celebrity 1230 p. M. , celebrity activist talk about their causes. Florida governor jeb bush on the bill of rights and founding fathers. Cspan2 Steven Pinker at 10 00 a. M. Theoon, fashion experts on first ladies fashion. And then at 10 00, former nbc news anchor tom brokaw on his more than 50 years of reporting on world events. For a complete schedule, go to www. Cspan. Org. Flex washington journal continues. Host Yochi Dreazen joins us now, author of the new book the invisible front love and loss in an era of endless war. Ofwas recently named one New York Times best books of the year. It focuses on one family, but also focuses on the grapple grappling with ptsd. Guest he was an army officer who thought he would be an postvietnam and was in for 34 years. Jeff was the oldest, and he wanted to father although his father into the military. Allhighest form of duty was he ever wanted to do. His brother, kevin, was more of an introvert. He was shyer and a bit more general gentle. He wanted to be in the military, too, but he wanted to be a doctor. But this is the life they chose. They want to follow their father and they wanted to serve. That is what led them into the rotc program in kentucky and what led jeff to iraq, and what unfortunately in many ways let kevin to his death. Host how did the two brothers die . Tost they were making plans play golf one morning. Jeff is about to get commission into iraq. Kevin didnt show up. Jeff began to worry. Asked his sister to knock on the door. The three of them were very close and were roommates. No knocked on the door and answer. She open the door and found him hanging from the ceiling. He was suffering from depression. When know later, jeff was in iraq. He was leading a foot patrol in falluja. He was leading from the front and thought something glistening near a bridge and turn to tell his men to stay back. Just as he did, he exploded. And another died with him. One brother died by suicide and another regulator was killed. How were their deaths seen and talked about talk about how their deaths were seen and bookd about in your regarding the issues of Mental Health and ptsd. Guest with kevin, who committed suicide, many in his own family thought he said and violated gods law by taking his own life. It was not covered up by the family, but a small affair. When jeff died, it was Kentucky News across the state of kentucky. The legislature had flags at half mast. Hundreds at the cemetery. The full military honors with a general on the disney on ended me. Knee. Ded when given died, it was almost like his life was not talked about. He was erased out of the picture. Visit to talk about a china in the book. Father in the family, and how they were able to move forward after the death of their two sons cannot talk about them. Guest ive known them for five years. They become extra ordinarily close to me. Even now, i wonder sometimes how they get out of debt. After having lost not one, but two children, how do they get out of that . And when they lost kevin and then lost jeff, for them, the question was, how do we possibly when our life choices may have led to the deaths. For mark, he was haunted by the fact that if he had not been in the military, maybe kevin and jeff would not have a legitimate. If he had not signified that he one of them to be in the military, they would have chosen different paths. And that will be with him until the day he dies. And for carol, she said, might son was my son was common to me for help. If i have followed the little breadcrumbs, i would have seen. And what she carries is that she did not see the signs. Mark led the evacuation of new orleans after hurricane katrina. Fighting out ways of suicide in the military. The way that the cultural interchange needed to change in how its opportunities to how it saw ptsd. Host kevin died almost 12 years ago. How far has the military come in that time in grappling with these issues are these ye issues you guest there is a willingness to see these issues as real. Theres money being spent in the way it was not things that before. Doctors are being hired by the thousands. What you have not seen is the generals at the top of this hierarchy, and obviously, the military is the general definition of hierarchy. You do not see general sitting forward saying my career did not suffer. Them worried that they will be seen as weak. For kevin, he took himself off of his medication. He was about to be commission an officer and had one more summer of rotc. He said, if they find out on medication, my crew will be over before it starts to stop people around you will see we as weak. And that has not gone away. , the authordreazen of the invisible front love and loss in an era of endless war. He will be with us for about the next hour here on the washington journal. The numbers are on the screen. Special line for active and retired military members, or members of their family. Stories,o hear your especially in this hour of the washington journal. And Yochi Dreazen, i want to hear your story from these issues in dealing with your time in war zones. Thet i covered iraq for wall street journal and lived in baghdad for several years. When i came back on my new that was off. Im in the there was something about me that was not the same as when i left. I would have a flash of anger as i was given at that table at a restaurant. I would wake up and not be able to fall back asleep. I very disturbing nightmares. I be up in the middle of the night and just be up. Long time, a long time to accept that this was ptsd. That this was not something that i could just put my mind to and think my way through it. One reason why i was drawn to the book and one reason why i was able to write it was that the issues of many veterans, they are similar. I was hearing explosions and seeing the same sites. Not likening a journalist to someone who has to fighting combat, but in terms of what you experience and what you live, its similar. And many were correspondents are reluctant to seek help. The stigma is exactly the same. Talk about the history of this stigma in past wars as well. There is no question that ptsd from therkest legacy vietnam war. Its one of the Dangerous Things about ptsd. You can be fine, psychologically, for decades. But its simmering there. Its this darkness inside you that you do not see. And suddenly, 20, 30 years later it flares up and be devastating. It can be drinking heavily, taking drugs, killing yourself. And with ptsd now, the estimates 500,000een 350,000 to of the current veterans of this war have ptsd. That is not take into account the other 1. 5 million that could develop ptsd over time. You immediately know its there. With ptsd, you often dont and you cannot see it and you will not for quite a long time. We are not anywhere near knowing how high the cost of that is. Host again, if you are active military or Family Member of active military, a special line set aside for you. Otherwise, the standard lines are all the same. If you have a question or comment as we are talking about this. Kevin worrying about ending his military career before it started, and that is why he stopped his medication. Can members of the military today take medication people know they are dealing with these issues without fear of losing their jobs or careers . Guest in many ways, it has gone to the other extreme, which is just as dangerous in my mind. Right now, the medical Health System is so overwhelmed that you go and say i need help often what you get is a prescription, because the doctors just on time to give you suck electoral psychological counseling. The military in its wisdom and put the base of the valley lament in range and the taliban controlled the top. They would rock rocket this base after day, week after week. Every one of the people there xanax, ambien, zoloft, and because no one was watching with they were taking, they will be taking nine xanax instead of 3, 6 ambien instead of one. They had prescriptions, but they were taking them and dosages way beyond what you should. There is a risk to taking medication. There is a risk to coming off of it. When they come back, the risk one was stopping entirely. Yes, you can get medication and military allows you to have it, but in many ways, they are giving you to often and in dosages letter way too high and too way too many people. Carol, which he knew her son had some problems in the book, you talk about her looking for a psychiatrist, who took the , but beingicare worried about being turned down, has the military system changed to make it easier to seek help on the front and . Its a very good point that you raise. It is a bit better. There are thousands or doctors than even just keep couple of years ago. There are more resources. There are more people there and more the ability more of the ability to usual insurance card and to get help, but the stigma is still there. Even if you have the ability to get help, it might make you reluctant to seek it. That is the most dangerous part of this by far. Host what would be your recommendations as the one who has gone through it personally, who is a lot of time with his family and dealt with it. What would be your recommendation to get rid of the stigma . Guest two things. The first is the human one. I spoke to happen doesnt generals that i knew from afghanistan or iraq personally and all of them describe ptsd. In the military, they leave off because if you call it a disorder, it is a sickness. But there were flashes of anger, of all, inability to sleep. Alcohol, inability to sleep. Until youral have a senior generals stand up and say, look at this. And then talk about it. We need a cultural change. Weve heardhost the president talk about this issue. It just hasnt gotten to the generals is what you are saying . Too, they talk about it, but not personally. They talk about it probably is a subject, which matters, but not as much as a general that a soldier can look up to and say, that specific guy, he went through it and thought it and he lived it. You have not seen that. And youre not think people get promoted because they have Mental Health well in their units. Ton you look at what leads someone getting promoted, this is not something that is looked at. You see that change, the culture within the military will not change either. The phone lines are open. I wanted to some phone calls i want to get to some phone calls as well. And also the line for retired members of the military. Clifford, thank you for waiting. Caller good morning. Im a u. S. Air force retired vietnam veteran. And i just want to comment that your guests made a very good point, that ptsd is not just the type of disease that shows up on one of those im one of those cases. It was able to quit working it was not until i was able to quit working and stopped drinking that i realized that what i have been doing with selfmedicating. I did go to the v. A. And was diagnosed with chronic ptsd. And that was 24 years after the fact. I want the veterans to know there are people out there. We have a group of vietnam monthns that meets once a with a psychiatrist. And we hammered out between ourselves, because we have the stories to tell. Any veterans out there that have come back and they are having problems, please know that there are veterans out there that want to help. That is my comment. Host thanks for sharing your story. Yochi dreazen, any comment . Guest first, thank you for your service, clifford. I think what hes talking about is very heroic. Many veterans only feel comfortable talking to others in the world because they feel a zillion just cannot understand. A civilian did not go through the war i went through. Cannotvilian just understand. A civilian did not go to the war i went through. They might let their guard down and trust us of the person more than a civilian. Seeking help is a wonderful thing. Them to, encouraging talk to other veterans is fantastic. Thank you for making a point. Caller charles is on the line retired military. Charles is on the line for retired military. Caller im a first in color. I spent two years in the air force as a pj. I came back and i had no idea about ptsd, and i was a medic. I guess i was having symptoms of to that point, and in 2002, me and my wife got into an argument and i became so angry i ended up breaking her arm. And i had never been arrested in my life. System. The court but the good thing was that i was able to go to the v. A. For treatment. I was in the chicago v. A. Side, which was hospital everye day. We had group and all of that stuff. They put you on your meds and all that stuff. Youre coming in and talking to a psychiatrist. Enter in a group. And you are in a group. Ive heavily medicated at the time, but now less. I still feel the depression and i sit at home sometimes and i think about death more than i ever have thought about it. Start feeling like, im tired. And things are just not important. You want to be isolated and they in the house. Sometimes i dont even want to be around people. You want to be isolated and stay in the house. Sometimes i dont want to be around people. And i got through two divorces. It is just, it is really something. Host we appreciate you sharing your story. Kind of told he describes is all too common, both in terms of not recognizing it for decades after, but also acts of violence towards those you love, toward strangers, toward yourself. What he was talking about, and that was painful to listen to, of feeling isolated and not wanting to leave his house and feeling by himself, that is one of the worst things about this. You may have family and friends who love you, people who are there that want to help, but you dont want to talk to them. Talkf the people that i about in the book talks about how when he came back, he felt sort of transfigured by the violence. He felt like he was a different person, and that he should not be near rigid people because he would infect them. There was something almost contagious about what he had seen and done. He pulled himself away from those who loved him. You have some who come back and do not have a support system, and some people who come back and they do, but they do not want to talk the people they love for fear of hurting them, or just that they feel theres something wrong with themselves that this person might catch. Host on suicides in the military, the color referring to suicidal. Suicidal thoughts. Today, i also want to bring up the National Suicide prevention lifeline number that we have 1800273talk. We have a line for military and their family, and also the regular lines open. A comment from edwin on twitter, who says that as a military vietnam veteran, the v. A. No the v. A. Would not help us with our ptsd then, and i dont see much improved today. And monti asks on twitter, do those suffering from ptsd represent a threat to society . Ucca to society and to the second question first, i think that they can call and say yes, i have it. A lot of people will say, a veteran is a ticking time on. I may hire someone and five years now, tenures now, he may go nuts. Veterans have a hard time getting a job because many zillions are scared of them. We live in a time where ptsd is talked about more, which is a good thing. A lot of the stigma around it, even in our civilian world is not there, which is a very good thing also but the downside is you have a lot of veterans with for the rest of the life will have to say to employers, people they meet, people they date, im not damaged. Dont look at me like im damaged. Dont think that i am a time down timebomb. It is a difficult thing to get past. The second person on twitter very accurately flagged. There are more resources. One thing that is heartbreaking, and a want to get back to your numbers for the people to put in perspective. More people have died from afghanistan, by a wide margin. Typically veterans . Guest typically active duty and veterans. That one year was horrific for the military for one reason. Up to that point in the suicide rate was rising, but the military can say accurately that , while bad,ate was less than than the civilian world. 2009 was the first year where the military rate was higher than the civilian rate. And since then, the margin has gotten bigger and bigger. Its not just that its growing more than people in war, its that it killed more than afghanistan. 3000 as compared to 2500. This time last year, that was the worst year. And the year before that was the worst year will stop the worst year. That we areng is nowhere near the top for suicides, even with iraq over and afghanistan winding down. We are not the top of this. We are still climbing. Host heres a picture of mark and carol graham from 2009 hold in the folder flag that they received after the death of their two sons. We are talking about in the book with Yochi Dreazen, an author. Nd an and managing editor margo is on the line for democrats. Old wound,s is an but my uncle peter was very dear to me was in the second world war, and his he was in at the very end of the war. Warwife enrolled him in the because she wanted him to die. It was terrible. He was a train engineer. He would go into the northern part of france, and that is where the soldiers were dying toward the end of this, just i all over the place. He would come out of that area with potties bodies piled high in his trains. They would go to the coast and take the bodies out and he would go back and forth. It tore him apart. When i was little girl, i was the only one who he was he would talk to. He would tell me about this every time we would get together. And i never realized how important was that he talked to me. I was sort of the only one he would talk to and that is it. Its amazing, margo, that you were there to listen to him and a lot of the veterans of that era would not trust anybody. We think of the and of world war the men of world war ii, and it was phenomenally met even though there were women fighting. Generation, during the war, half a million soldiers were kicked out for psychiatric issues. Even his greatest generation, half a million troops were kicked out during the fighti