Transcripts For CSPAN2 2016 National Book Festival 20160924

Marty, i, i am the executive editor of the Washington Post. The Washington Post is a charter sponsor the National Book festival since the beginning and we are happy to do it again this year. The Library Library of congress has been the festival toast since the festival began 16 years ago. We want to thank the chairman of the festival and the many National Book festival sponsors who made the event possible this year. You can make a donation to the festival by checking the information in your program, there is to be time for question afterward and this is being filmed as well. You should know that. It to her speaker, the Washington Post has gratified to have some of the finest National Security reporters in the country and a standout among them is it joe b warrant. When you read black flakes, the rise of isis youll see why. And the most revealing portrait yet offal zarqawi, founding father of the organization that became the Islamic State. As our country aims to destroy isis and as isis seeks to metastasize beyond iraq and syria, there could not be a more urgent and timely treatment of this subject. As isis and Terrorism Take center stage in a president ial race, this book offers a refuge in actual facts. Imagine that. [laughter] and in an absorbing history of our times and in a sober assessment of failures across the political and governmental landscape. For good reason, black flags this year was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction. The judges described it as a brilliant and definitive history that reveals the long arc of todays most dangerous extremist threat. All of us at the post were enormously proud when the pulitzer recognized the excellence of the work, and it was not, by the way, the first time they had done so. The prize for black flags is his second pulitzer. In the two decades since that work, joby has been a cherished colleague at the post. He is as soft spoken and gracious as he is diligent, determined and dedicated. So not just the superb reporter, but also a wonderful human being. Its a real pleasure and honor to introduce joby warrick. [applause] well, marty, thanks a lot for that. It is a pleasure to be with you, and it is an honor to be introduced by my boss. Ive been at the post, as marty said, for 20 years. I can tell you the post has never been in better hands than it is right now, and the fact that we here in washington [applause] and i know, you know, you must get mad at us at least once a day. I mean, thats part of our job too. But the fact that we have a quality newspaper of the caliber of the Washington Post, that it continues to be so ambitious and so energetic and just so committed to its mission is a reflection of the people at the top. So i feel privileged to work for marty, and i think you should all be kind of grateful to be in a town and in a country that has editors like marty barron, so thank you again for those words, marty. [applause] you know, book festivals and ive done my paperback tour now, so im used to this but typically, authors will tell charming anecdotes and funny stories. I wrote a book about isis [laughter] so the material doesnt lend itself to funny, witty stories. But the topic is important, and i think you all know that, and perhaps its why youre here. When i do travel the country, people are confused about this organization. Theyre afraid, and of course theyre afraid. I think our political leaders are very confused right now just based on the rhetoric on the campaign trail. Really my purpose in doing this book was to bring clarity, and thats my special gift as a journalist. I try to help take complicated stories and make people understand what theyre really about. Its what im going to try to do very briefly today. Im going to show some pictures. Were going to start with a video, photo montage boiling down the history of isis to three minutes. This is kind of a summary. After this is over, were going to talk about some characters behind isis, but this is my video introduction. Its isis, so its dark, its not the goth channel, but its nothing you havent seen before, i think. This is a little preview of our discussion today. I hope you can all read the subtitles. [gunfire] Allahu Allahu akbar [speaking in native tongue] [speaking in native tongue] [background sounds] [speaking in native tongue] so my book, black flags, as i tried to explain, is a story of origin toes. Its a character sketch digging into histories of the men behind isis. And im going to talk about five personalities very briefly starting with zarqawi, the man whos probably the most important and most innovative terrorist personality of the last two decades, second only to Osama Bin Laden, and continuing on to other individuals who may not be as familiar to us but are important in understanding what were up against. We start with zarqawi, the godfather, he pioneered almost all the tactics we see isis using today including the beheadings of young men in orange jump suits. He was an original and dispensable force. Isis literally could not exist without him, and in a strange way, zarqawi could not have existed without us. So lets understand him as a way to get into our topic. Every terrorist starts out life as a kid, a cute little kid. Here he is in 1968 with his mom in jordan. He wasnt a cute kid. He was a bad seed from the very beginning. Not just tom sawyer mischief, but cutting kids with razors, using drugs, he drank, he was a violet, vicious youth violent, vicious youth absolutely headed for trouble. He was a high school dropout, he had tattoos, anything but a religious guy, extensive criminal record. Then he gets a bit of a religious conviction, and even more importantly like many other young men in his region, he decides in the 1990s to go fight jihad, and that means going to afghanistan. And this is really the cradle of the modern jihadist movement. This is where we get alqaeda and so many of the groups were familiar with today. He goes to afghanistan, he fails even there because he arrived too late to fight the soviets. But he joins the arab army, he gets involved in the civil war there, and then this giant young man violent young man discovers hes a ferocious fighter. And be his religious fervor is being pumped up because hes learning at the likes of Osama Bin Laden and his lieutenants. Then the war ends for him, and hes back home. If you think about the experience of a lot of our returning veterans, its pretty much that way for zarqawi and his friends. They dont have anything to do, they want to keep this fervor going, so they start to look for ways to build their own little jihadist cell. What are they going to do in peaceful jordan . They start attacking bars and liquor stores, get the idea of attacking pornographic theaters. They send a guy into a porno house in amman with a bomb, the kid goes in, gets engrossed in the movie [laughter] if forgets all about the bomb which blows up at his feet. Nobody else gets hurt, but he loses both his legs. These are the kinds of knuckleheads were dealing with in the 1990s. Theyre locked up, a lot of his followers, and these guys, you know, who went off to war to afghanistan are trying to be contained and corralled in prison. But in jail they end up being corralled together because the jordanians are afraid theyll start to infect other people, so so theyre off by themself, about 50 of hem in one cell. And this becomes kind of a Jihadi University where they share ideology, they talk about tactics. It turns out to be not a good thing, and out of this environment, zarqawi emerges as a charismatic and capable leader. Heres where he gets a couple of incredible breaks. Hes supposed to be sentenced to prison for 15 years. Hed spent all those years in jail, we never would have heard of him. But in 1999, the king do have of jordan dice, and theres a tradition of am am necessary amnesty for political prisoners. So Parliament Comes up with a list of people to be pardoned. You know, the tribes come up with their own lists, and then, you know, about 2,000 people end up getting freed. And among them is czar zarqawi d his entire band of followers, and out they go in 1999, ten years ahead of schedule. So he goes off to the place he loves the most which is afghanistan and tries to unite with Osama Bin Laden, his hero. Turns out bin laden wants nothing to do with him because even for the mastermind of 9 11, this young kid, this hothead who doesnt know much about islam, hes not very smart, hes very violent, very crude, hes too bad even for alqaeda. So they reject him, they kick him out, they send him off to the other end of afghanistan to start his own little thing. So off he goes, and once again if he had stayed out there, we never would have heard of zarqawi ever again. But then the second miracle happens for zarqawi. In february 2003 the United States is getting ready to invade iraq, and were trying to make our case to the u. N. And other people around the world about why we want to do this. We offer two reasons. One is weapons of mass destruction. The other was the possibility that alqaeda could collaborate with this terrible iraqi dictator, saddam i hussein. If theres some kind of collusion between the two, they could be even more dangerous. So this is the pitch we make to the u. N. When Colin Powells making his speech, hes talking about this, and who does he cite as the prime example of this problem . Our friend, zarqawi, at the top of list. He seems to be the right guy. Hes in iraq at the time, hes living in the border area between iraq and iran, hes had contact with alqaeda in the past, so he seems like this kind of perfect poster child for this problem that the u. S. Is describing. So this is the case thats made. Turns out, entirely untrue. There was no truth to his connections to alqaeda. He wasnt in alqaeda, he wasnt, certainly, working with saddam husseins government, but that one poster made him a celebrity overnight. Suddenly hes receiving money, support, recruits from around the world. He becomes an overnight celebrity. He has this vision hes going to fight a superpower, its going to be the United States in the iraq. So he moves to baghdad in 2003 to wait for the americans to arrive. So when he gets there, he starts to build alliances. Heres this crazy guy that wants to start a terrorist movement. Suddenly, hes got all kinds of allies because the iraqi army has been disbanded, those colonels, generals and majors dont have jobs anymore, youve got the baathist party, suddenly all those people are looking for leadership as zarqawi moves into that and becomes the nucleus for this new insurgency we begin to see unfolding in 2003. Hes got a good head for strategy, and he starts going a after important targets, the u. N. Headquarters, he goes after ngos, the red cross, a all kinds of groups that would help the United States, that would give us the cover legitimacy, drives them home. And be then more portingly, he goes after the sunni shia divide in this country. Theyve been living together reasonably well for decades,but zarqawi decide cans deliberately to start a civil war. He blows up a mosque, kills their leaders and youve got, essentially, shooting back and forth between two groups who had gotten along together. He isolated us in iraq, then he sets off a civil war around us, and by in 2004 and 2005, were in bad shape in terms of our occupation and plans for iraq. So the next thing that happens, this is kind of background noise for zarqawi, because hes got bigger ammunitions. Ambitions. He wants to become an international star. He feels he has a destiny. So he develops this notion that no matter what kind of bombing or shooting you might be able to do, theres nothing more gripping, more viscerally horrible than watching a single execution. So he grabs a random american off the street, nick berg from philadelphia, takes him into his cell, sits him down with an orange jump suit, and he personally and thats zarqawi reading the script there, he personally beheads this young man. This becomes his calling card. The violence zarqawi unleashes tears up the country, and its too much even for alqaeda. And so thats not the only difference. Zarqawi begins to launch a new Media Campaign using social media platforms just becoming available. So youve got the great bearded osama bin ladin, you know, reading his sermons from behind a podium, very boring, and then youve got this jihadist action figure, killing americans with his own hands. Young jihadists around the world eat in this up. And then hes brash enough to make up his own rules. Hes not even a high school graduate. Hes not very smart, but he does understand theology, and thats liberate aring to him because he doesnt liberating to him, because he doesnt bother to worry about whether hes committing acts that arent islamic like suicide attacks. Then he begins to think about a really big idea which is the idea of restoring the ancient caliphate, the islamic theocratic empire of centuries past. He regards himself as divinely inspired to usher in this new age of pure islam, driving out western governments along with brutally destroying everyone else who stands in his way from corrupt governments to apostates like the shiites. And this struggle would end in a mighty battle, in an armageddon in which armies of islam would finally defeat the armies of christianity. This was going to be star e zarqawis role in history. I am the spark, he used to say. Zarqawi but now public enemy number one. We poured vast resources into efforts to stop him. It took us nearly three years to track him down, but eventually our intel, our ground forces, special operations teams found a forum for defeating him in his network. We found a safehouse in 2006, we drop a couple of bombs on it, and thats the end of zarqawi himself. We start dismantling the leadership, killing number twos and number threes, and just as we figure this out, other things happen. The iraqi sunni tribes revolt against zarqawis followers, and you have the anbar awakening. The u. S. Troop surge happens. And by 2009 all thats left was just a few hundred followers who were being driven deep underground in hiding. Alqaeda in iraq was essentially beaten. But not everybody thought so. Heres our second isis personality. We know him as albaghdadi, hes the leader of isis today. In zarqawis time, nobody would have pictured him as a leader. He was a scholar, kind of shy, kind of boring. His family and friends remember him as a kid who never spoke to anyone, carried books around on his bicycle, wasnt very impressive. He has a doctorate degree in islamic law. Hes on track to becoming a College Professor when the u. S. Invasion takes place in 2003. Baghdadi joins zarqawi because he feels obliged as a good muslim to fight the infidels, so he ends up going to jail for a while. Once again, he has the prison experience, exposed to these tough guys around him. Then he gets he starts to rise up through the ranks mostly because other leaders around him by 2010 are getting killed. And so in 2010 the leaders of this battered organization, mostly former Iraqi Army Officers by this time, decide they need a different kind of figurehead. And so they pick this guy, baghdadi. Hes an islamic scholar, he happens to be a from a tribe that can trace its heritage back to muhammad. It started to call itself the state, the Islamic State of iraq. The state parts kind of a joke, because even to these guys, they know theres no real state. One of them reacts with derision, wheres the state youre talking about . Were live anything a desert. Living in a desert. But history then intervenes again in isis favor. Just as bagging daddys coming to power baghdadis coming to power, u. S. Troops are leaving iraq. And as soon as theyre gone, the shiite government feels emboldened to start settling old scores with sunni tribes, kicking out army officers, and so much of the sunni population begins to rebel against the baghdadi government, finding more interests in common with zarqawis people, with isis, than with their own government. Be and then, a year later, civil war breaks out in syria, as we all well know. And this is a pivotal moment, because its an opportunity for these guys to start something new, to start their own Militia Group inside syria. They have a perfect incubator now with a lawless state awash in violence and weapons, and they have a new cause fighting an oppressive dictator, assad, a man whos stirring up passions all over the islamic world by slaughtering civilians. They rename themselves yet again, and now theyre Islamic State of iraq and alsham, or isis. And theyre extraordinarily successful almost immediately because theyre ballothardened battlehardened, and they start to attract foreign recruits by the thousands. By 2014 theyre ready to break out, and they do so in dramatic fashion, capturing the eastern half of syria, then invading iraq to declare the establishment of this islamic caliphate. By the summer of 2014, theyre a powerhouse, 30,000 strong, able to conquer major iraqi cities, overrun entire divisions of u. S. Trained iraqi troops. This is the isis were so familiar with today. And theyre also very rich, because after capturing mosul, they suddenly have become the wealthiest and best Armed Terrorist Group of all times. They own oil wells, banks, universities, resources that alqaeda would have only dreamed of having. But really beyond the wealth its zarqawis old organization. Zarqawi embraced violence for its own sake. These guys do the same thing on a grander scale. Be they also have this boldness to reinterpret islam in any way they want to. As baghdadis a religious scholar, so he goes out of his way to create theological arguments to justify whatever atrocity they do. Theres always a verse in the quran or a tradition in the text that can be made to justify, make themselves appear to be pious muslims instead of just barbarians. And just as zarqawi understood the horror could be amplified using the internet, isis did same and got better at it. Theyre extremely skilled at harnessing the power of social media for indoctrination, for training, all done at a distance before the recruit sets foot on syrian soil. But now instead of the shaky handheld videos that zarqawi used to use, they have editors, graphic artists working on products aimed at young men who grew up on video games like call of duty. This formula works, and the idea of isis becoming a powerful attraction. 35 be ,000 foreigners 35,000 foreigners travel to join the army, far surpassing those who joins zarqawis iraqi army. In a year there are nine mini states of isis around the world and cells in dozens of places including about 5,000 isis recruits from europe alone. Which brings us quickly to our next personality that defines isis today. You may not recognize his name or image. This is Abdul Hamid Abaaoud who led the terrorist attack in paris last november that killed 130 people. His background is actually very close to this typical prototype of Northern Europeans who join isis. The son of immigrants from north africa, a troubled youth well known to police. He live inside a slum made up of middle class muslim immigrants. Hes a kid that truly didnt fit in in his society hes not really a religious muslim, not really a modern citizen of his familys adopted country. He ends up being radicalize inside prison, and when he joins isis, he suddenly has a sense of belonging and a cause, something that allows him to feel as though his life counts for something. He travels to syria and initially is a bit distressed by the bloodshed. A few months later hes posting videos of himself dragging corpses behind cars. He becomes the key coordinator for the isis attack in paris, as we all well remember. It was his biggest and final assignment. The two things we have to remember about him when we think about the story is, one, hes emblematic of a population that is particularly vulnerable to isis message. Nearly always second generation, children of immigrants who feel conflicted about their identities, not well integrated in their societies, struggling personally, dont seem to have a sense of purpose or future. Theyre looking for meaning and for adventure, and isis offersal those things for them. The second key thing, a primary reason isis carries out attacks abroad is it wants young men to feel even more alienated. The more countries feel threatened by isis, the greater the tendency to crack down on young muslims, to profile them, harass them, make them feel even more alienated. How do we know this . Isis talks about it in its own literature. Isis englishlanguage magazine puts out an article that talks about the gray zone in europe, a zone where millions of muslims inhabit. They feel conflicted about their identity, and isis wants to force them to choose sides. The article says this muslims in the west will quickly find themselves between two choices, either they apostsize and adopt the infidel religion or immigrate to the Islamic State and escape prosecution. It welcomes our help in driving muslims to their corner. For us in the west, the solutions that seem easiest are often the ones that get us in a deeper hole. Real quickly, the fourth isis personality, it was never really a member of isis, yet we all associate omar mateen with the Islamic State. This is the young man who walked into the pulse nightclub in orlando last june and killed 49 people in the worst mass shooting in u. S. History. Mateen told police he did it for isis. In fact, his statements suggest a very limited grasp of isis belief and ideology, and yet isis gets credit for the attack anyway, and it becomes a talking point in our political discourse. Heres whats interesting again to me about mateens story, its another young man who fits the profile of a typical Northern European isis recruit; the son of muslim immigrants, second generation. A young man in his 20s unable to find personal success in his life and feeling excluded and persecuted by the dominant culture. So he embraceses an extremist ideology as a way to feel empowered and important. Even more striking, he fits the the profile of a typical perpetrator of an american mass shooting event. Theres an interesting piece in todays Washington Post that makes this point. Islamic extremists share many of the same traits as regular mass killers, if we can call them that. Almost all are young men who struggle to fit in, they also have a boastfulness and a craving for attention. Its the same profile, frequent, as dylann roof, the young man who killed nine people in a church in south carolina. Isis just offers certain young men a different kind of excuse for carrying out their revenge fantasies. This is pretty dark stuff, and its depressing, so i do like to always include the fact there are reasons to be hopeful about our fight right now. If you follow the news, you know the caliphate is reeling from a series of takes. Attacks. Theyre losing crowned. About half of what was once isis territory in iraq is now liberated. Liberating iraq means fewer resources more isis, fewer towns and villages, fewer oil wells they can essex ploit for cash exploit for cash. Theyre faltering in the Public Relations war because people see brutality and the hypocrisy and even young arab muslims, theyre core audience, are starting to turn away. This is a look at british muslims, it turns out. Just in a years time, support or opposition, rather, for isis dropped from about 65 to 65 from 85 . Somewhat disturbing, this small group of people who embrace the ideology of isis has remained pretty static. Other good news, we have more and more muslim, other muslim countries, muslim arabs taking on a greater share of the fight. And this makes the going slower, but its usually important because arab boots on the ground are vastly preferable to an occupation and invasion by outside forces for all kinds of obvious reasons. Its also encouraging were seeing more muslims take a stand against extremist ideology. One of the worlds greatest religions is being attacked from within, and only to other muslims have the standing to be able to defeat the virulence that has affected so many young people. We see the king of jordan, abdullah, organizing an effort to denounce extremist interpretation. Egypts president goes to the top Theological Seminary in cairo to call for an islamic reformation saying we have to take back our religion. Its a hopeful start, but we need to see a lot more than this. Finally, despite the good news from the front lines, i cant be optimistic about defeating this ideology in the near term, and heres why. Ill introduce my fifth and final personality. I wont use his real name, but well call him ahmad. Hes 7 years old. He was one of thousands of Young Children who had lived under isis in towns and villages. Hes a bright, beautiful young boy who happened to live in the syrian city of raqqa when isis took over. Within months, he was in a Training Camp getting indoctrinated, learning how to use a gun. He was taught his parents were not good muslims and he should report bad behavior at home. He was taught that the greatest possible calling for a young man his age was to be a suicide bomber. Ahmad talked to us about witnessing executions, about going to a local park and finding the bodies of men with severed heads stacked up next to them. Every now and then during the interview he would shut down and ask for timeout to, and at one point he wanted to i draw a picture of syria, his home. This is what he drew. He was telling us the story about something he had personally witnessed, a man with one eye on the right side was a prisoner who was brought into the town square. The man on the left has a knife, and he beheads him, and then below you see the oneeyed mans head lying on the floor. We worry in this country about isis recruits, about people being radicalized on the internet or traveling to iraq or syria to fight, but were facing an entirely different problem with a generation of young people who grew up under this terror. I bring this p, because when the caliphate does collapse and i think were beginning to see the end of it we cant declare victory and go home because the seeds of countless tragedies are still out there now. Whos going to provide psychological counseling for this young ahmad . Whos going to rebuild his city and school . Who whos going to offer hope for a job and a family someday in the future . Its overwhelming, but its what is important not just for moral reasons, but because of our own security. If we dont find a way to address this problem, you can be assured that well be hearing from ahmad or boys and girls like him in the future. You can be confident that the kind of extremism, brutality that weve witnessed in the last two years will come back to us again and again. Thank you for your time. Im happy to take a few questions. [applause] hi. Well start over here. Hi. Thank you for your talk. While depressing, really interesting. Thank you. About, like, several months ago john kerry declared isis as having committed acts of genocide, and im wondering your take because i think its interesting that a terrorist group has been designated that. I dont believe another group has. So what the challenges the United States has and other groups other countries have in tackling a group that is a terrorist group having also committed human rights atrocities. Yeah. Thats a really good question. And it was an unusual move, youre right. Its not something we typically do with terrorist groups. We never declared alqaeda to be guilty of genocide, but in the cay in the case of isis, its true. Its not going to deter isis, that we declare them to be perpetrators of genocide, but just as an act of a community of nations including our muslim allies and friends in the region to call this what it is and try to hold them accountable in some sort of global way, i think its a powerful message, and it just, its something we need to do as opposed to something that will help in some, you know, practical way. But i think its a really important and interesting step. Thank you. I noticed in the maps you showed that it seems as though isis hasnt made it to morocco. Why is that . To where . Morocco. Morocco, yeah. You know, some countries like morocco, like jordan too, i think, they have a problem. They know they have local cells, and they deal with them. Sometimes serious problems. But so far there hasnt been any ability of these groups to organize in a serious way that were aware of. And i think its partly reflective of the Security Culture in those countries. Theyre really, really good at their internal security, theyre good add knowing what people are doing, but also an unknown factor. Every few months we see some, you know, some disruption of a plot in jordan or morocco, so theyre definitely there, they just dont seem to have the grip they do in some of these other countries. Good question. I was wondering if you could talk a bit more about the financials of isis. So they have access to a lot of Natural Resources and capital, but how are they actually able to turn that into cash and, like, who do they purchase from . Yeah. How does all that work . Thats a good question. Interesting about isis, theyre much more selfsufficient in terms of their funding than most other terrorist groups weve looked at. In the very beginning, they may have benefited from groups of wealthy arabs in the gulf. More recently, theyre using whats available locally. They find oil, sell it on the black market, and they manage to do this black market trade. They shake down local populations. Theyve been doing that since zarqawis time, you know, taxing local civilians, collecting fines for almost any offense you can imagine, it can be a fine that gets collected by isis. But more recently, because of their successes in taking over territory, they also have big assets like bank vaults. In mosul, its said they were able to accommodate Something Like 500 million in hard currency, euros, dollars. And since its a cash economy anyway and theyve got more cash than they could possibly spend. And to give a perspective, you know, obviously, they need to pay their soldiers and do various things, but to carry out terrorist attacks abroad doesnt really cost that much as isis does it. The estimate for the cost, start to finish for the paris attack, somewhere around 10,000. So theyve got well more than enough to carry out attacks like that for years to come, unfortunately. Thank you. Joby, i have sort of a personal question, but before that when you went through the slides, you pointed out a lot of the individuals were just angry and, you know, they just wanted explosives, they just wanted to be in the press. Be okay. Now, people said the fellow who dropped, let the bombs in new york were not related to any of these, but he was that kind of person. Yeah. And so maybe this could prop a gate a lot d prop gait a lot, encouraging. Now the personal question is, are you concerned that some crazy guy is going to come to the Washington Post office and either you look at your book as a history of isis so they want to show it around, or they think, wow, this is a great way of getting into the press by destroying the person who wrote the book. No. Thats a good question. Its not something that we blithely dismiss. You know, ive lived in the suburbs with a family, so you do think about things like that. Martys a pretty big guy, so its nice to work in a secure office. We feel like nobodys going to easily come in and do harm to us. My, the one thing, and maybe this is sort of vain or just overly optimistic, but i always assume that, a, they like publicity in some bizarre way and, secondly, theres many more important and attractive targets than a journalist from the Washington Post. So i am very, very careful when i travel to the region, and otherwise i try to keep my eyes open and then do sort of a casual review of the line of people waiting to get their books signed and make sure nobodys carrying anything that looks like a weapon. [laughter] yeah, its not an idle thought. Thank you for the question. But again, looking at your book, its a history of the program, so people in isis can show it around to people yeah. Because youve dock uted documented their heroes. That is true. And the book, because of the pulitzer, its coming out in a lot of languages, including arabic, so thats something i think about. Thank you. I want to ask a question as a journalist who really appreciates the craft and believe your book is an outstanding piece of nonfiction narrative. And its a craft question. How did you it sounds like you started with some intelligence agents presumably off the record yes. In jordan. Thats my guess. You dont have to describe your sources, but how did you, a, get access to them and then, b, get them to open up . And then widing your net to people widen your net to people who had been inside the isis organization . Its an astounding piece of reporting. We, i appreciate that well, i appreciate that, and i thank you for the reference to Lawrence Wrights book. In the same sentence with him, im flattered. I appreciate that. It is a difficult challenge. Part of what, i think, helped me is the fact that ive been doing this at the Washington Post for a long time. Over time you build up relationships with intelligence people. Its not a hard thats not an easy thing to develop. And not just here in this country with our agencies, but the ones overseas because i travel to the region quite a bit. I ended up getting remarkably strong responses when i approached people in these governments about telling the zarqawi story, telling the background of isis because this is important subject for them. They feel like it needs to be understood. And some of these particular individuals are some that use their arab names but not their real names for obvious reasons. But once they got into it, they were just thrilled to talk to me. I had, you know, hours and hours and hours of conversation with guys who had never spoken to another reporter, but they were just blown away by getting a chance to share their knowledge and to tell stories that were so meaningful and important to them. And because i guess one of my gifts as a journalist, if i have some, is just that im approachable, and i dont have an agenda, and i just want to know. And i think i come across that way. And if you just really want to know the facts, you know, people can be surprisingly cooperative in that regard. So i think ive just gotten lucky there. Well, thank you very much. One quick followup. Did the king of jordan cooperate with you in one way or another . I have to say this is my second book, and the first one was also had a jordanian theme. And one of the reeders of the book and readers of the book and someone who admired it was the king of jordan. He actually read the book and commented on it. So i felt more emboldened to ask him and his government, you know, im going to tell a story, its very personal to jordan. Extremely helpful. You know, it is always having better than having doors slammed in your face. Yeah. It helps that the king of jordan cooperates. He pulled some strings. Thank you so much. Its really a masterpiece that will last for ages. Thank you. How we doing . Three minutes . Two quick questions, and im sorry, well probably have to take them afterward with, later. This will be quick. Point of terminology, please. You speak of isis. Ive heard some officials, including the president , speak of isil. Yeah. And then decision ive heard others use the term daish. Could you explain those three, please . Yeah. If i could get away with using daish, i would use that. And the reason is it really all boils down to an attempt to transliterate arabic. So what isis calls itself is now just the Islamic State, but its the Islamic State of iraq and alsham, sounds like an s for the second s in the abereave shakes. Sham is this big region, essentially ignoring countries that were created like syria, jordan and israel, that didnt exist 110 years ago. It just lumps it together in this ancient place called sham. And so when you hear isis, people are saying sham. If youre hearing isil, people are saying levant. So not trying to be clever or cute or trying to be politically correct, its just a struggle to figure out a way to transliterate the words, but thank you for that. Thank you. Lets do one more. Hello, sir. My question is what role, if any, do you feel that our media here and in europe play in creating an atmosphere that makes it easier for groups like isis to recruit yeah. In places like, you know, orlando where, you know, that man was yeah. Very familiar with isis and in western europe and northern europe. Thats a good question, and we wrestle with it at the Washington Post on up to martys level. We do take very seriously that that our words sometimes can agitate and excite be as well as inform. So we do try to be restrained. I mean, theres all kinds of like, were having discussion about an article were trying to put together now that involves videos. How much do you show . You need to show enough to be able to help people understand a situation, not enough to be gratuitously, you know, obscene really with the level of violence. But what i do feel now, we have an Important Role to play, and its this isis is being, theyre losing ground in the propaganda war because people are understanding now what theyre really about. You might see these slick videos that you get on the internet, but the people coming out of raqqa, people who are fleeing those countries have been abused and just see these people as barbarians who are anything but islamic. The more we can tell those stories and set people straight about what eye to sis is really about isis is really about, destroy their own mythology, i think thats a great contribution to their defeat, and i dont mind saying that. Everybody, do you want to get this last one or two, or should we just call it [inaudible] okay. Weve got to pull the hook. I would encourage you guys to come and find me, and im happy to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time. Its an honor to speak to you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] and youre watching booktvs live coverage of the 16th annual National Book festival here in washington, d. C. , begun in 2001 by thenfirst Lady Laura Bush along with the library of congress. That was joby warrick talking about his latest book, black flags the rise of isis. Annette gordonreed and peter to enough are coming up in about 15 minutes. Their book is about Thomas Jefferson, most blessed of the patriarchs, is what it is called. Now here on our booktv set in the entrance to the Washington National convention center, Amy Ellis Nutt is our guest, and here is the cover of her book, becoming nicole. From who is nicole . Guest nicole was born an identical twin boy in 1997, born and given the name wyatt. This is a child from the age of two, two and a half identified as a girl. And when i say identified as a girl, didnt say to her parents i think im a girl, said when do i get to be a girl . You know . When do i get to look like a girl . Believed she was a girl. And, you know, two middle class, ordinary parents living in the state of maine needed to figure out what that was about. Host how did they figure it out . Guest you know what . Host or did they . Guest they did. And the here to row of the the hero of the book is really the mother kelly. These twins were adopted at birth. Kelly knew there were two things that were most important to her as a mother; make sure that her children were safe and happy. And she knew she could control the safe part. She had to understand the happy part because she also knew that this child was unhappy when she didnt get to play with the toys that she wanted or a father who was, you know, conservative, republican, veteran, you know, was really unsure about who this child was and resisted it. But kelly was determined. And so she did very early what a lot of us do, and she googled the words boys who like girls toys. And that became the beginning of her odyssey to understanding. She had never heard the word transgender, and so it began she began to become a student of it and to understand it to try and bring her husband into it. It took her longer to do that. It took him longer. But hes probably the one who undergoes the most transformation in the book. Hes now someone who goes out and gives talks to people about transgender kids, transgender children and being transgender and especially is helping to try to work with fathers to understand their children. Host what about the other twin boy . Guest jonas is a remarkable, remarkable kid. They are both now entering their sophomore year of college at two different branches of the university of maine. What was wonderful about jonas is that jonas really probably knew before anyone, you know . Kids would come up to him and sometimes say to him, you know, what is it like to have a transgender sister . And, you know, he didnt know. He just knew he had a twin that was really a girl, not a boyment boyment boy. And when jonas they were both very young, said to his father be, dad, face it, you have a son and a daughter. And it was kind of a wakeup call for wayne to realize, you know, out of the mouths of babes, here is my child telling me that his brother is really his sister. So jonas had to go on a journey too to helping other people understand, to be protective of his sister when she was discriminated against in the fifth grade and bullied and then told by staff at their middle school that she would have to use the teachers restroom and not the girls room. Shed already changed her name, dressing as a girl for all intents and purposes was nicole. And it was tough on jonas. He had to be sort of big brother, and at the same time he said to me very profoundly, you know, im a kid, and i have a sixth grade vocabulary, so its hard to talk to people to try and make em understand. Make them understand. So he struggled with it too. But theyre very close. Theyre both very different in a lot of ways. And theyre each one anothers best friends and protectors. Host what was the first step in becoming nicole . Was it clothes . Was it name . Guest you know, i think it really was i mean, the first evidence to the parents certainly were clothes. Nicole, born wyatt, loved to, you know, she would pull her shirt over her head to make it look like it was long hair. She wanted to wear her mothers jewelry. She wanted to pretend, you know, that things were dresses. These were obviously the first signs, you know . And a lot of kids go through these phases, but this was consistent, and this was constant. And then there were things saying, you know, she actually would say, daddy, when does my penis full off . Fall off . So this was a child who wasnt saying i feel like im a girl, this was a child who knew she was a girl but couldnt understand, being a child, why people were treating her like a boy. Host when did surgery happen . Guest surgery happened last summer after she graduated high school. Nicole was one of the first cases of an american child at the childrens gender clinic in boston, the first one in this country, established in 2007 under dr. Norman spack, her daughter, was one of the first to have puberty repressed so she had time to go through the psychological tests, had time to dress and act and be a girl in order to know for certain this was who she was. And then when puberty was going to start for her, they could see in her twin brother when it was starting, that was when they started her on estrogen. And so she wasnt going to have the surgery until high school. She wanted to do it before college. This is a very, very important step. So many people go through puberty, and when they decide to make the transition, dont make it until theyre adults, its especially difficult for female transgender people because, you know, theyve gone through male puberty. And surgically, a lot has to be done. She didnt have to face that problem. She went through female puberty at the right time. So shes been able to have the right development and at the right time as other young women. And shes a beautiful young woman. And shes happy and thrilled and has a boyfriend and is about as normal a kid as you could come across. And its the beauty of this family is because theyre ordinary in so many ways, theyre extraordinary in how they dealt with the situation. But theyre ordinary in being, you know, an every mans family. Theyre your mother and father, theyre your sister and your brother. It would be hard motto identify with this family not to identify with this family. And i think to the degree that that can normalize for people what it means to be transgender and what it means to have a transgender member in family, then i think it spreads the message and educates people just by their presence. Host Amy Ellis Nutt, youre a Science Writer at the Washington Post. How did you find this story . Guest this story actually found me, honestly. It was First Published in the newspaper, in the boston globe, page 1, in december of 2011. Marty barron to, the executive editor of the Washington Post, was then the executive editor of the boston globe, very farseeing editor who promoted in this story. I read it, i was fascinated by it. And i was captain r contacted contacted, i didnt know that they were being represented at the time by someone i had known 30 years earlier in boston. And she reached out to me because the family was getting a lot of publicity requests. They were uncomfortable with doing anything more than that. They wanted to protect their kids and have them group, you know, have them a normal teenage. Teenage life. But they knew that down the line after they graduated high school, they would want this story to be told. She contacted me because she knew id written a book, and so the story came to me. But i remember saying to my agent, this is fascinating. And the fact that they were identical twins is an important aspect trying to explain the science and what we know about the brain and gender. I said, do you think anyones going to want to read a book about a transgender kid . That was five years ago. And the world has changed dramatically since then. So, honestly, its a serendipitous publication of this. Host whats the estimated population of transgender in the u. S. . Guest honestly, the best estimates are grossly inadequate. The ones that you read most frequently are between 7800,000. Those figures are based on 10yearold surveys of three states. Its impossible to know. It really is. And im waiting for the, you know, for the next sort of stage when we can get a better estimate of that. But, of course, we face the same problems in people not identifying as transgender or not wanting to identify even so honestly, i think we really dont know. But what i learned from doing this book is id always thought the phrase gender spectrum was very nice, politically correct, lovely phrase. But it really is true that this is not exceedingly rare that 1 in 200 kids are born with atypical 1 in 200 are born with atypical genitalia. There are many, many different kinds of variations of chromosomal dna. People can be born xyy, xxy, insensitive to androgen, you know, to testosterone or not. So there is no average male or female. We really are a spectrum in many ways. And so i learned that as we are beginning to learn the science of this, your anatomy is set in utero at six weeks. Scientists believe your gender identity process in the brain does not occur until six months in utero. So you think of all the things that can happen between six weeks and six months that affect the brain, and this is why identical twins can have the exactsame exact same dna, but they get different chemical messages from the mother even where theyre positioned in the womb. And the degree of variation because of things the mother takes in from the environment that affects the distribution of hormones, the variability in how our brains are set is nearly infinite. Host so what kind of testing did wyatt maines have to go through to become Nicole Maines . Guest yeah. Host before even surgery happened or anything like that. Guest you know, back then it was before really, honestly, genetic testing. So what she went through was mostly psychological tests. And also physiological tests, you know, to understand, you know, her anatomy. But it was mostly a series of psychological tests, and this is one thing why they, you know, delay puberty and suppress puberty so that the child cannily as the gender can live as the gender that they believe they are for as long as possible to be fully confident that thats who they are. Look, there are a lot of kids who, you know, test boundaries and, you know, boys that like to dress up as girls and girls that were tomboys, and these are temporary. These are things that are experimenting. Not all children who do that are transgender. But a child who says at the age of 2 when do i get to be a girl and says it constantly and consistently, thats a transgender child. Host Amy Ellis Nutt is the author of becoming nicole the transformation of an american family. Shes also the coauthor of the teenage brain. The accident happened so quickly that he did not know what happened. The story, on the one hand it was a narrative about what happened to these men and their families, but also an investigation. I basically make the case, i think its a strong case that there is were the victims of a highspeed hit and run by a container ship that did not stop. It is a mystery and an investigation in a story about people. You also spent nine years as a fact checker at sports illustrated. A a little bit of your career, becoming the call is the book we have been talking with you about. The the transformation of an american family, here it is. Now our coverage of the 16th annual National Book festival in washington continues, back up to the history and biography room. Up next, Annette Gordon reed talking about Thomas Jefferson. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] good evening and thank you for coming and spending your evening with us tonight. I am delighted to be here on stage with you. But these two incredible historians and biographers and allaround great people. Im i melissa, with National Public radio, Annette Gordonreed and peter onuf, authors of a new book and we are going to talk about Thomas Jefferson. Welcome to all of you. Again, thank you for being here on this beautiful night, you are in doors on a gorgeous washington night. I want to start with the title of the book, the most blessed of the patriarchs, you talk about in the preface is of the book that Thomas Jefferson writes that hes planning on going back to monticello in virginia, he is writing a letter to angelica skyler church, for those of us cannot hear the name with out thinking angelica, eliza. He is ready to her in london and talking about her plans to go back to monticello. Part of the writer letter reads i have my house to bill, my field to form and to watch for the happiness of those who labor for my. Ive. Ive one daughter married to the man of science, and who indeed i have nothing more to wish. They live with me. If the if the other shall be as fortunate and due process of time i shall imagine myself as blessed as the most blessed of the patriarchs. So what are you talk about a little bit about what it was in that seemingly innocuous paragraph in the letter, what was it about that language that intrigues you and made you think that was the root of this book. Personally want to say that the title was so much controversy. We have to fight to have quotes because this is a jefferson quote about himself and we did not want people to think we are calling him the most blessed of the blast of the patriarchs because. Because i am the most blessed of the blessed. Stephen might be able to get away with that but i cannot get away with get calling jefferson the most blessed of the blessed of patriarchs. But we thought it was intriguing because it is so different from the idea of being of liberty, republican, the person he saw himself as an avatar of the enlightenment calling himself something that calls to mind an agent patriarch evening, biblical of an ancient times and in another letter he refers to himself as living in monticello like it to louis and patriarch. So, he is of the new but at the same time he is seeing himself as this figure, patriarch so what we thought we would try to unpack as historians say because we have come to a point where there is a picture of jefferson and a lot of what people are doing and writing about is writing about what they wish he had done or they are mad that he didnt do, and we wanted to try to figure out what did he think he was doing which is an important thing, we think to try to uncover. You are trying really to get inside inside his head. We want to draw attention to what seems to be a paradox because the past as is well known is a foreign country and our idea is that jefferson studies have been distorted by the need to make him speak to us now and we are not going to be able to draw anything from jefferson until we can put him in his place. That was our goal. How do you think he interpreted that patriarch that he is talking about . He wasnt embarrassed to use the term and i think that is something we need to explore. That was the point of this, how could he say this and what does it signify . The point of departure for us is that the world he created for himself that monticello, it is foundational to his career in american history, his public life does not disconnect from his private life. If you want to understand jefferson you have to put those two things together. Seeing himself as a patriarch is accepting his position in the world, this is a person who is born at the top of the hierarchy of virginia, he is white, he is male, male, he is the third son, he is tall he is intelligent and welleducated and he sees himself as having a special role, an interesting thing to think of somebody who is in the middle of nowhere who decides that he is going to be a mover and shaker the world. That he is going to make his mark and he is able to do that through the force of a personality that is very selfassured, confident and you might say arrogant and away but certainly believing he had a special place. And patriarch to us is a negative thing but for most people, it is a problematic concept but it was not problematic to him because he is thinking, i am doing this the right way. That is the thing that is great. Its important to keep in mind that jeffersons career is dedicated to eradicating aristocracy. That is a challenge for us as a aristocracy, patriarchy, those are all dirty words for us, thats old regime. He regime. He saw himself inaugurating a new regime. He did not reject however this fundamental notion of the centrality of the family in the household to the future of the republic. That is is what he is celebrating, the role he is playing in his household. Does that notion of patriarch extend beyond the household, beyond monticello and his family , his enslaved workers to how he approached the presidency in politics . He didnt see himself as a patriarch. That was washington. I think he really thought he was the father of the country. Jefferson was the real father of the country but he did not see himself as a patriarch of the people, of americans, the the people were supposed to be the rulers but i think his understanding of family and how people could relate to one another was central and it came from what he conceived family was supposed to be like in monticello. To remember the Nuclear Family where most americans live to in nuclear families, some of you probably still do but jefferson thought it was natural. That is the key word for him, nature. The family comes together naturally and he imagines the republic is the most natural form of government. It is selfgovernment. It. It is true to the nature of human beings. Therefore the United States will be a model. Lets talk about the structure the book a little bit because you approach it in an interesting way, youre moving chronologically but not so focused on his political life where he the you wrote chapters on music and in privacy and how vital privacy was to him. Talk little bit about how that approach and why you approach it that way. We wanted to do something different, we wanted to try to show what we thought, the things that we thought were important to shaping jeffersons life. He was born in chadwell and then one thing happened and then another and another. The ideal was to have things that were important to him that could be in the patriarchy. So we unpacked that and think about how he became a patriarch. The second section is traveler and it talks about the influence of france, what happened to him when he leaves monticello and goes out into the world. The last one is enthusiast because thats where we talk about music and visitors and things that are influences that shaped him but would not be typical biography side in that way. The idea is to get inside his head in a fashion and not just do a laundry list of details. And if we successfully integrate his private life into his public life then we can show how the performances that he orchestrates in his house then appealed to him man awaits way its a microcosm of how he imagines the world to be. Civil conversation, music in which Everybody Knows her part and they harmonize, there is a political meaning to all of this and i think it is profoundly on the basic to his political philosophy that the idea but jefferson is you can never know who he is. We think thats stupid. Its foolish is supposed to be impenetrable. Well, jefferson himself made a big deal about his privacy, and you mention that, that privacy is foundational to how he understands his public life. Take this simple idea, in a republic citizens are equal, they have to consent to the laws that the majority decides on then that consent has to be truly voluntary. It has to come from the Self Determination of the. How do you protect individuals from insidious influences . How do you take for instance the, person out of the mob, how do you avoid the usual problems or pathologies of democracy because democracy was a dirty word. Put people together and they are going to get drunk. If they had a government and they controlled the government what would you do . Well you would possible lawn you would redistribute property. So how you lift people up is a big challenge and crucial to the project of lifting people up, theres a new conception of consent itself. Jeffersons project we describe as a a cell fashion project to make himself somebody. He wants to exemplify how an enlightened republican citizen can become wellinformed and can become part of a new kind of public life based on that. He doesnt see himself as an avatar but as an example of all of this theres an arrogance to this, the idea that hes the national teacher, that he is an example to teacher and thats what it was supposed to be. You go to monticello and if you been there you go to the indian hall and the foyer there, theres all sorts of paintings, sculptures and everything in the idea is that these are things that he brought back from france to show to people. Hes going to show people how to model a civilized behavior. So its an interesting idea to say that i am an example of something that i want other people to see and this is how you model yourself. In a way to be educational 20 people. Speaking of the consenting, obviously an entire category people who are by no means. [inaudible] im curious, we have spent a lot of time looking into the family, the extended family of Thomas Jefferson through hemming. Did did you come to a different understanding of how he viewed slavery . So much as in written any of set it that the fatal state as he described it, you do so spent times that when he goes to france his you saying francis slavery became fully domesticated in his mind. What does that mean . It means that before he went to france jefferson had a reputation as being anti slavery. The first indication of this was a young man in his 20 and he copies interest, place book parts of a poem. And it talks about the evils of the slave trade and somebody yanked from his native land and was brought up cross the ocean to labor for someone else. As a young legislator he wanted to introduce legislation for emancipation plants which were nowhere in virginia. And he wrote about this in he had a reputation as being antislavery. When he goes to france and he sees the society and you leave your country and you think theres bad things about your country to go someplace else and they say well at least were not like that. We can be friends. That was his attitude. He thought he was in france during the prerevolutionary. And people were starving, there is on rest, riots and all kinds of things. And he said we had problems in america but this place has lots of problems and just on the road to be to solve those problems because he was much in favor of the french revolution. He is excited by that. Gave him a sense that well, we have time to sell a problem as as well. The other thing that happened is in france with james and Sally Hemmings who are his wifes half siblings. He begins to to treat them in a way, he pays some wages and he starts the practice that he continues when he comes back home and that is wherever he is in the city and mix in slave labor and free labor he pays everybody because it causes a conflict. Hes hes living with these people who have an opportunity to be free because every person who petitioned for freedom and france is granted. And they couldve done, but they didnt do and while he was there he is living with these people who become the face of slavery for him and away. And he continues this when he comes home, he sees himself as a slave owner through his relationship with the people who are the closest around him. Thats unrealistic because they are not the people down the mountain. They are not the bulk of this is his wifes family. They have a completely different relationship to him that the others do. And his brothers, lots of times he didnt know where they were. They hired their own and went out of the money. He would he would call them back when he needed them for something. Thats a very different relationship than he had with over 700 people that he owned over the course of his lifetime. This is a tiny group of people who are pulled out. Sees himself as a slave owner through those relationships. We think france really heighten that for him. Because they do come back, they dont stay. Slavery becomes domesticated. He is thinking about the mess members of his household and how he treats people in his household. That is very different than the situation. A kind of reciprocity to come is not symmetrical, theyre not equal, but like family members, and i use the word natural before, he has created what he thinks is a kind of family that extends and i think thats using the right words when we use the word face. Its how he sees or wants to see slavery area but the other crucial thing to keep in mind is that jeffersons urgency and doing something about slavery varies with the geopolitical situation. To put it narrowly and neatly in the American Revolution and slave people could run the british lines to join the counterrevolution later on in the revolution and what becomes haiti, the possibility of uprising. It would spread to the continent during the war of 1812. The british coming in and its another opportunity for and slay people to take advantage of this. At moments like this jefferson says, my fellow republicans, we have to do something about this, i know slavery is an unjust institution, we need to act in his solution of course is emancipation. We have to to free these people. This is radical injustice. He never backs off from that and then we have to send them to another country. Expatriation is his solution. Liberia, wherever. He thinks may be in the Trans Pacific but he said late we might need that territory. So he thinks about but there there is a black republic, that recognized that maybe, thats expensive. He goes through the possibilities but the important thing is that when the piece comes the urgency goes, when the piece comes then he seizes himself and this is crucial, hes a kind of steward, he has a responsibility just as the father and the family has a responsibility. He has a a responsibility to look after the happiness of those who labor to borrow another phrase from that letter that we started off within our title, and then we have a kind of domestication that were talking about and that is that we are trying to create a sense within this household of good treatments of hes in ameliorate or wants to improve and rationalize things there are ways in which he can practice the enlightenment at home, make things better while we wait for his fellow virginians to see the lights, they use that to get and then come to the collective decision, we have to do something to end this unjust. He understands that he doesnt believe there is what is called the republican solution to the problem. So the white people of virginia were not going to vote to do away with slavery, the second happened during his lifetime thats likely to happen. But he knew that was not going to happen at the time and that it was going to and by the time he gets to the missouri crisis he realizes its going to end the way it did and that is with the war. That is not something he would have concentrated. Yes i think jefferson in haiti is fascinating because when he first hears about it he writes a letter to his daughter and he said the negroes have taken over the island ten he was sort of like isnt this the age of revolution and then all of a sudden he hears that lots of white people are being killed and then the tone changes. Its one thing for white people to kill for their freedom in france essentially which he supported the friends revolution far longer than people think he should have but for the black republic at first its okay but then when they start killing its not okay. And that reinforces the idea of racial national difference. One of the key terms we play with is the idea of race which doesnt have a fixed meaning. It is equivalent to nation, people, race, in the modern sense and if enslaved africans and africanamericans are a distinct people nation race, then how could they possibly live with the people who had enslaved them . But there would be no peace, that that is the thing that really gives people a problem is because we congratulate herself and think that we are better, were in light now living together in peace and harmony, yeah, right . We get along. Will im happy were kind of get along. [laughter] but i mean he doesnt have the confidence, how could blacks love a country that has treated them so poorly . How could you do that because this is him saying i know what i would do and hes transferring and basically saying. And thats the downside in the sentimental conception of what nations, great big family who love each other. But how long did it take for the laws to change on interracial mayor in america . Were talking about basic stuff, what i want my daughters to marry black people . This is insane. So that idea of the on naturalness of the races mixing. Except that its interesting because we talk about this in the book that it is very, is the attitude of the conqueror, white men have access to the bodies of white women, black women, native, native american women, but not the other way around. Really for jefferson and those in the state of virginia when hes talk about mixing, hes talking about the horror of up flight a black man having access to white women. To black, black men having access to white women. He didnt have any problem the other way around because he knows that in slavery slavery is a laboratory for that kind of thing. In his own household, and his fatherinlaw, people in virginia just in general. Its clear this its clear this is something that was a big part of life during that time. Think about the implications of abolishing artificial hierarchies among white people that his aristocracy, monarchy, all people are white people, citizens are created equal. But you can do that but then youd draw attention to visions that you consider natural, not artificial. To have a king they tell us all about this for, there is nothing legitimate about a very important word in regimes. Theres nothing legitimate about it. He abolished all those and we agree on that and celebrate this its in the first grade modern republic. Yet what that draws your attention to is how a society constituted . What what is the natural relations that emerge . We would like to think that means everybody was involved in the revolution, let the loyalist go back to britain. Theyre going to love each other and it is going to be fine. There is a distinction here, a distinction that runs down through society itself. Two People Living living in one place, it is unnatural. It is vitally important have the relationship to the land of your country. This is what patriotism means, this love of country and we have people here against their will who we own unjustly, this is impossible. They cannot love it. We wont love them and they cannot love us. And we cannot form families. How can you be equal citizens if you cannot be in the same family . Yes, we are all equal in the same but you cannot be my daughterinlaw or my soninlaw. You include part of a letter that Thomas Jefferson writes to Tom John Adams this historic miracle that both john adamson Thomas Jefferson die on the same day, on july 460 years after signing the declaration of independence. He says time which outlives all things while live this people also. Clearly taking the long view, who knows what exactly he was thinking. Remember he believes in the afterlife is going to see the. Im curious in the writings in his letters, he talks of slavery on a grand scale as an institution, but does he ever refer to it within the context of his family . Does he talk about the need the paradox of the of what we see now where any of the other enslaved people on the plantation and a direct way . Does he wrestle with that ever . No, hes not wrestling with it. Talking about Sally Hemmings or anything like that, he sees himself as being a good master to these people into my family, and it is not, this is not something that is keeping him up at night. Most of the time hes talking about slavery is that the request of somebody, somebody has written to him and asked about it, he is not being proactive. If youre from new england he would feel guilty not sleep at night but he is not. I was going to say there is a lot of projection in jefferson. When i least like a jefferson, when i dislike him is when his solution to a problem, why there is a problem in someone elses fault. This idea in scenario we sketched out of how you would have emancipation of virginia, the white majority finally realizes it has to act because its a basic republican requirement. Whose whose fault is it . He says this repeatedly, i have made it clear what my position is, this is the only solution you are going to have to wake up to this. Now as you quoted from that later is not going to happen in my lifetime, but its not his fault. That is where we have the problem. Its a jefferson, go to church, get down, apologize, feel bad. Get down . [laughter] i have no idea what that means. Pray for forgiveness i have to say one of my shifting gears here little bit before this gets too controversial, you talk about exploding some of the myths around Thomas Jefferson. One of my favorites is the notion that he goes to france and he arrives in 1784 and as you describe it he promptly greeted by portis because he spoke very little french. He studied french, he knew all sorts of things but his Language Skills were not up to snuff. He knew how to read french speaking a language is very difficult. Its one thing to study something and then actually go to france and having people speak about a mile a minute, but but their normal way of speaking and to put it together, he read french well and he could understand people but he had difficulty speaking the language. His daughter and sally and James Hemingway eventually learned how to speak it pretty well. He was older when he goes to france. Hes in his 40s in language is not easily acquired at that time. , my favorite story of that time. Isnt going to a chess club in paris and then getting beaten easily, handedly by people. He doesnt go back and we think thats interesting because my husband to play chess competitive civilly says the only way to get better is to play with people who are better than your. And its an interesting thing that he did not, he loved to play chess but he did not want to do it. He didnt love it enough to get beat repeatedly. Hes a very thinskinned person. Is very anxious. You identify with that. [laughter] im a white guy at heart. [laughter] when he is in france, look at its most remarkable to us i think beyond the initial Culture Shock and his need to create a little virginia at home. He needs the comfort zone. It is the danger he feels that works in French Society to impressionable young people that he can barely resist the temp tatian some cell. So young people dont go to paris because you have women in the streets messing in politics. And thats why he celebrates the properly constituted republican family where women have their place, they played played a role but they are not doing politics, they are not influencing society. They are in their place hes upset with this, it has a lot to do with sexuality and ten tatians that he sees there. In one letter he suggests that if you come to france at an impressionable age to things will happen to you, you will develop a taste for for horse and you will never learn to speak your own language well because during this crucial. You will be speaking another language and having too much of a good time. What is really important is that youre going to have to go back in the republic. The key key art in the republic is persuasion of speaking my well. So if you cannot speak the language well and if sexually you are developing in an abnormal way than the very foundation of the publics being subverted. I do want to ask you one thing, as coauthors of the book and im enjoying listening to your slight disagreements here, where there times when you really could integrate . Did you have to come to consensus . Which one . Shes going to talk about religion now. I pray you do. All i suppose the biggest dispute between us was jeffersons christianity. Peter calls himself a unitarian. And on my thing is always how can you tell and i grew up in a United Methodist tradition and jefferson calling himself a christian i was not convinced about that. I was reduced to prayer at that point. And he convinced me that i was perhaps being too judgmental and that idea because it suggests that jefferson did not believe in the divinity of christ, he believed jesus was a great oil teacher and that you should live according to the precepts of jesus but not jesus the christ. That is why why he writes the life and morals of jesus of nazareth, not jesus christ. So he raises out parts of the bible that are that he considers to either mysticism and magical thinking. But he convinced me that i had to narrow a view of all of this. So that was an area that he persuaded me about. We have other small disputes and sometimes you just, but it go. Was at the movie of medical, frozen or whatever. Im not going to sing that. But we basically agree its not that different. What was wonderful about this collaboration for me and i think for both of us was that we brought complementary knowledge and skills together and i think the fit has been wonderful. We enjoyed working together. The only downside for me is that i am now known as the biographer. [laughter] i dont do biographies. We have microphone set up for people who want to have questions. You can come forward. And so will go to the site for. Im so excited to be first. And that i loved your book. It has been a huge inspiration to me. Thank you. I am writing a book and i and interesting interested in a craft. What kinds of, what are the biggest obstacles you had in trying to put together the forces that you are using to create a narrative . Will the biggest obstacle is pulling it all together and trying to find the right way to craft the narrative. I mean to have lots of information but you know what to go and what to leave in and what to take out, thats the biggest thing. There was a lot there i think but we dont have a lot of direct evidence or any evidence from sally herself but you have to research around the situation. Its funny because i didnt perceive it as a problem, it was fun. A a minute think im a natural detective. Id love to write but i also like to research if not more, but certainly as much. But i would say if i would to say what her problem would be a was learning how to take the material and turn it into a narrative and to know you have a file or you have the old thing, kill your darlings. I never killed them, i exiled them. I exile is called outtake in you take stuff and put it away and say you may be able to go back to that later on. It really is a parenting down. Thank you for your question. A net and peter, the big thing today in new york is hamilton. If you look at turnouts a book, i read your book theres a big emphasis on the fighting that went on between jefferson, hamilton, adams, and the madison joining with jefferson and others. And then the secretary of state and leaving. I dont know whether it was a temporary perspective that jefferson had during the administration, washington is from virginia and i was very surprised to see after reading your books how jefferson turned out to be evil. Am i crazy. Did you just say evil . Evil, because he was against the washingtons approach. , he times have you seen hamilton . I have the cd. Know and also miranda spoken know, but the fact is looking at the book he takes a certain perspective. Can i start on an answer . And annette will set me. First of all, the idea political opposition is absolutely illegitimate. Party, factions, no good. Weve been talking about love at nausea. Its that people do recognize, values and commitments, and they dont. Of course love always makes, failed love makes things worse as freud would tell you about love, hate, and the second thing is to get back to the real world there is no guarantee that the American Union will survive. There is no guarantee that the United States should ever cut a figure in world affairs, it is from a world Historical Perspective the odds against it are tremendous. In other words there so much at stake and of course with the image of planting the seed and the tree starts to grow in one direction that could be forever, they know theyre starting something. If they started wrong it will fail. So everything has a stake. I personally and i do get in trouble on this, im a little hard little hard on jefferson when we read about politics, i dont know i think, i understand what theyre both doing. They make a lot of sense to me. The fiscal military state, hamilton has it, jefferson has the notion of how to create a legitimate regime that will connect people and forge a new kind of attachment that will sustain the government. All of that makes sense. They made their contribution but you can see what the stakes are in why would they be at each others throats. All because washington is washington to untrans listening to hamilton too much. Lets go to another question. I have two if you will allow it. First of all, when i went to monticello, one thing that occurred to me was that what jefferson was doing relied a lot on his ledger, his ability to spend time of the things he wants to spend time on. So clearly he relied heavily on slave ownership to do so and yet you are also saying that he saw his lifestyle as a model for people to live by. So in a sense he thought that model of the republic one of had to rely on the institution of slavery for people to continue to try to model that. So is he conscious of that and how it deal with that in terms of his idea of the ideal republic . Okay lets leslie but one question to try to leave it at someone else. He felt that eventually its back to this point of what would change later on, he did not think the model would be slaveowning. Because eventually slavery would go away and what he wanted was to have family farms, that they would take over. But what he wanted people to model was this ideas about science, his idea about art. Those kind of things. I dont think he saw plantation like as that aspect of his life. It was the exalted not just the institution he thought was going to leave. In one way of thinking about it is that his educational system cap by the university is the very narrow apex of a Great Pyramid that begins with primary education. He doesnt think everybody will reach the top. So its not modeling in that sense. Might say what is characterize the middleclass society is its aspirational quality, blu can be. Learn, bmi tends, and every man can participate in enlightenment. And i think and i think that is the idea. So that anybody would be educated and in light by visiting monticello and pearls of wisdom from the great man. One more question before we have to break. I like to go back to the issue of writing a joint historical study like this. Perhaps he could tell us about how you got the idea of working together on this book and then how you coordinated different sections or different aspects of the book. Will peter said he was going to retire. I did . And he did retire and i got the idea that he should, i do want him to write off into the sunset yet. I asked him to write a book with me. [inaudible] [laughter] be a nearly deathlike i am in trying to keep me going. So that is how we got the idea of doing it. We have been talking with each other since 1995. I thought we should do something together so our editor wanted to have one voice but it would not be good to write a chapter me to write a chapter in to have someone responsible for different sections of it so we tried to write sections and send them to each other each week. For a period of time where being very efficient, we went out on the road and talked about it quite a bit even before we began to write. We wanted to try to craft as much as we could. There some sections that but everything got moved around. There are some quirks that i could recognize that were mine and some i her him, but a lot of time i dont know who wrote what. And theyre still talking. [laughter] thank you so much for being here. [applause]. Macbook tv is continuing coverage at the 16th annual National Book festival continues. We have about 15 minutes until the last author talk and that will be Pulitzer Prize winner stacy shift. She begins at 8 00 p. M. Eastern and her book is the witches. It it is about salem in 1692. That begins in about 15 minutes. In the meantime we want to hear from you. What are you reading . What would you would you like to see a book tv . Here the phone numbers 202, 47882004 you can also text us at 20283862514. For text only. Please include your first name and your city so we can identify that way. What are you reading, what book is kutcher tension . What would you like to see a book tv . Lots lots of options for you to talk about it will begin taking calls in a minute. I want to this book out, its just been released now. If you watch cspan regularly you knew we did a series on the first ladies. We looked at every first lady, 45 different women and this book is coming out, the paperback version. First ladies, you you can find it at your favorite booksellers and you can find it online as well. If if youre interested in president ial history. You can pick this up. But are from buzz. What are are you reading now. I found a book that you done on the program called the trail a Little Gibraltar, sister about world war i and the final battle. The world war i is a little understood but most american folks but for historians this is an excellent book because it reveals a gross mistake by the American Forces at a place. What is very important to me in this, i had researched the death of a soldier here who died here and i never could understand why he died. Why his unit was wasted as it was. The book, betrayal gives the answers to the story. For those of you who like world war i, or like to know more about it its read. And that was a book we covered that was the book we covered i believe down in stanton, virginia. You can find that online, you can tape and betrayal at Little Gibraltar on our website at booktv. Org. You can walk it watch it online. Good evening. Her and thank thank you for cspan and book tv. Right now i just completed nixon, man divided by evan thomas. It just continues, he fascinates me and i cannot cannot get enough reading about nixon, the person. I really appreciate that book. Ive also started looking at robert caros book, morse specifically Lyndon Johnson in terms of when president kennedy is assassinated on november 22 how johnson really takes charge and chose his leadership. In recent times i found these some of the most fascinating men in american history. Did you see her segment earlier with bob woodward about the last of the president s men . Unfortunately no, but, but im hoping to watch the replay later. Of course i am a voracious viewer of cspan, book tv, and of course cspan three. It is excellent to have the resource there at our fingertips at the computer. So everything we have covered here today at the National Book festival will reair beginning beginning at midnight eastern time. That is 11 00 a. M. At Arlington Heights in illinois. We sat down with bob woodward and talked about his most recent book, Alexander Butterfield we talked about watergate as well. So in case that is a topic that is of interest to any mention evan thomas booked, mr. Thomas was here last year to talk about his book at the National Book festival. You can watch that online at our website, at book tv. Org. Thought. Org. Thought the commercials here this time. Mary is in pennsylvania, what are you reading . Actually i have just started the boys in the boat so im not very far along in it. But i love cspan, and i love the show but i have a question and that is, why do you not ever have any fiction writing . Do you think we should have fiction on . Will i would like it because i love fiction and nonfiction. Im just wondering what your reason is for not having it. What you think your reasoning is . Not a criticism. When you think our reasoning is the . I dont know. Okay, we are part of cspan. Cspan covers public affairs, nonfiction issues, washington, Public Policy and things like that. So book tv as part of cspan, we try to cover the same thing. As you well know if you do watch book tv, there is lots and lots of nonfiction books and authors, and topics to talk about, i think we would have to start a new network if we wanted to cover fiction. It is not really what we do. We are nonfiction type of place. So thank you for calling in and thank you for watching. Our britain new york city, what you want to tell us . Caller i just finished reading a book, the making making of donald trump. Everyone should read it before they vote. Im also reading white rage by carol anderson. And let there be , they are all very interesting and important books. I hope these authors will be on book tv to talk about them. What you do in new york city . I am retired. I was a college administrator. Thank you. David david k johnsons book, mr. Johnston was on q and our q a program just recently. It just aired. So again you can go to cspan. Org which is the website or you can go to booktv. Org and type in his name and you will be able to watch them talk about his book on our q a program online. White rage is a book we covered here on book tv. So lets go back to the website go to booktv. Org and you can watch at their online as well. Eugene in nottingham, maryland, what, what is on your reading list . Caller i am reading, on his own terms, a life of rockefeller. What made you put that book up . Caller on the biographies. Im from new york and rockefeller was born in 1968 had a tremendous impact on new york. Reading his book i had no idea he was dyslexic as well. Im glad im reading this book because just the early part of his life and how he grew up in some of his approaches to his rockefeller legacy into other people, and it reminds me of myself and when i read biographies and i have read a ton, theres always something i get out of it. Reading this book right now ive yet to even get to the part where he is governor of new york. Just the early part of his life, the shape of his personality and overcoming of dyslexia is interesting. Host have you read other books by this author . Spee2 i cant say for sure, his name is familiar, resume different books like recently one of jeffersons books, i read a biography on think it was it jefferson or lincoln. I have a book here by sydney blumenthal, the life of Abraham Lincoln which is my next three. Sometimes the authors i remember less than the person they are writing about. So what else has he done . Guest he has done president ial histories in effect right now he is writing one that should be out in the year two on gerald ford. Heres the was the director of the gerald ford president ial library in grand rapids. He has been director of the Dole Institute in kansas, the Reagan Library in simi valley. He has been all around. He is better on see spend quite a bit. I hate to do this but if you go to book tv. Org and type it Richard Norton smith and find all sorts of videos. What you do and marilyn . Host eugene is gone. Lets hear from jennifer. Caller hello. I just just love cspan a book tv. I just love it. I want to tell you the book i have been back. Host you have been watching all day . Caller pretty much. Host okay well send your address to book a tv at cspan. Org and we will send you one of these nice book tv bags, how does that sound . So just send that email and put jennifer in there so i know it is from you. Caller okay. So we were down to the bay area one month ago and we visited angel island and there is an Immigration Center that used to be the ellis island of the west coast and we picked up a book there called angel island the gateway to america. It is a by erica lee and judy young. Im fascinated. What happened there was so different from ellis island. The experience of the different ethnic groups that came through angel island was so different, depending on what group it was and what their home countries were and how they were perceived. It is quite fascinating. Host well thank you for calling and, we appreciate your time. Lets hear from bill and pennsylvania. Caller before i go into the book that i want to suggest can i make a comment about your previous caller who is reading about rockefeller . I grew up in that. When rockefeller, the republican governor of new york was making deals with the democratic mayor of albany. Rebuilding the south mall and building a good portion of the downtown and i hope there is a chapter in the book about the political intrigue between those two politicians. He was mayor of albany for some 40 years, he was elected mayor before the war started, he went off to war, fought in germany as i recall and when they came back he held the job form. And then he was mayor for 30 years. Host what was his last name . Guest mayor corning. Host was that of the cornings, corning where . Caller they may have had something to do with it but he was strictly a politician. He was a businessman