Way he was doing things the could have elevated the two chairmen or ceo but you never know. It is what it is i am happy as i look back with mostly great satisfaction. Host most i think would say you havent had a very successful career. Are you really retired . What is next . Certainly i will not be an executive and a Major Corporation but i am a contributor to force, d. C. Contributor i write a column for a magazine and a board member for a variety of companies and two consulting and i am now involved man with a partner in producing premium mens watches and one of which is right here starting a small automotive venture. I have plenty to keep me busy. Host why i dont call that retired. You have a lot of wisdom that Somebody Just starting a new one to follow in your footsteps of what was a your party words of wisdom be male or female with leadership . First of all, be passionate. If you are passionate about fashion or the furniture business go with that. If its about the hospitality go into that last night i heard a lecture of the sports caster probably the most famous sportscaster in the United States in said from the time he could walk he would hold a spoon pretending to be a sports caster what he wanted his whole life. So that is the essential ingredient otherwise you will end up to use the of nine to five slave kicking off the months to retirement and will not be successful. Follow the area of your greatest passions and hard work always try to exceed requirements. Never be satisfied with the status quo and always give extra and always maintain professional integrity dont try to pull funny stuff fourstar rivers to ingratiate yourself by shading the truth. Just behave with absolute integrity which i seek is of lesson that America Needs today needs to hear. Host you are great and have taught me a lot and you are one that i love you say it as it is. I dont always agree but you are one of those who are willing to save what they think. Guest john is one of my heros. Host i love you both. Host i look forward to seeing you soon and people learn from your insights. Bob lutz. Fatefully there are fewer idiots a. M. There were icons [laughter] guest thank you. Good night. Thats the best interview ive had on the book tour. I just got it from charles. And loved the interview on things that matter. His new collection of essays. Some of which are auto biographical. That makes my day. I like radio. Three hours is an abundance of time. I can do so many different things. Youre watching cspan2 with politics and public affairs. Weekdays featuring live coverage of the u. S. Senate. On weeknights watch key Public Policy events. And every weekend the latest nonfiction authors and books on booktv. You can see past programs and get your schedules on our website. You can join in the conversation on social media sites. Up next on booktv. After words with political activist, radio host joe madison. Talkingtalking with craig wilder on ebony and ivy. In the book, the host i guess the first question is, how did you start down the road . We were laughing when you said ten years ago when you started you had hair. Guest not a lot. But i had hair. [laughter] host what started you down the road to actually put ebony and ivy together. Guest its a long story i can make short. I had just been moving from one job to another one teaching position. I just finished a book project. I started out on whey thought was going to be a simple book, a simple article. I was going explain how black abolitionists got their education. Give the fact they were excluded by race from american colleges and universities. I was going tell the story of where they went. Some went to europe. Some went to new england and studied privately. Some studied privately in the atlantic and became ministers, teachers, and doctors. But in fact, actually, one of the things i got more interested in, i started that project was why they were excluded from the colleges and universities. That these, colleges, in fact had a long history write black people. On campus. And enslaved people but not as students. But they had a long history with native americans. And thats a very at black students were excluded. Native American Students were on campus for 200 years. Host doing what . As students . Guest students for almost 200 years. Host how were they able to be on campuses. You write about that. Guest thats the beginning of the book. If you think about it, you know, the first attempt to build a college for native American Students is about 210 years before the first attempt build a black college. The first native american graduate from a college is 200 years. The first may native minister 150. It sounds like native americans are privileged inspect fact, part of the story telling the book is precisely the role of the university in conquest. Its precisely the role of the university in colonialism. That explains the early presence of native students on campus and precisely that role that explains how universities turn to the slave trade to fund their enterprise. Host now. When you say the conquest. From what i was reading is that the part of the conquest was this thing of these are savages. These are people that are infour your enfour your and we have to educate them or train them or somehow make them unsavage like. Im speaking in reference to the native american. The belief is that the goal the obligation was to bring the gospel to bring the bible to untutored people. And to civilize them in that way. A lot of projects went hand inhand with conquest, and territorial expansion. One of the things that was surprising to me, as i started the book, was the quite that they played in that early colonial period. Im a american college. The american colleges and universities helped take me as a kid with a single mother raising three kids all by herself in brooklyn, new york and turn me to a College Professor with tenure. Host you and your sister. Who is an m. D. Guest yeah. My sister is a pediatrician in d. C. Ive always thought of Higher Education and colleges and universities. The benevolent institutions. The institutions that do good things if we can get access to them. What the Research Began to expose was the other role that universities can play. Universities can be, in my mind, weapons of social just u, but what shocked me they could be weapons of social destruction. Host in what way . Guest they can play a huge nart undermining the integrity of native american nations and civilizations. One of the things i write about in the first chapter is the desire to christianize native people in the americas. Several attempt to build colleges which was all the early colonial colleges have as a primary mission. The education of native people. Are going to be tour or ited in i english, and only have, in fact, the remnant of native culture and native language. Host in the book ebony and ivy do you talk about the type of cause m that might have been created as it relates to intergenerational conflict . Guest sure. I touch on it in the first chapters of the book and try show the ways ways in which the early colleges actually had a multitrystic role. Part of the goal port of their purpose was to help achieve the strategic aim of the colonies. And this is the white we awrve deploy education and deploy schools in the colonial world to soften the of native people to european. Host lets fast forward to then the whole issue of slavery. One thing that captures peoples attention and the critics have talked about this how the slavery funded these College Campuses. It funded and built these campuses. Who were the individuals that built the harvard, yale, brown, i think many of may remember the headline from Brown University that started with a study there. How much of that had an impact on what was in ebony and i i have. I was four or five years to the project when Brown University released its report, and the former president of brown, courageously, actually, and within the face of great citizens and great criticism from her from her own constituents, you know, brown she articulated the purpose of Higher Education. Which is the pursuit of truth. And we pursued truth in all of these other arenas. We also have to put some truth in our own history as institutions. And the brown report mattered a lot to me. I was four or five years to the project, and, you know, this was a massive undertaking. And it was about 2006 when i realized how big it was. How much time it was going take. How many years it was going take. And it was a good part of me that didnt want to go forward. Host why . Guest it just seemed enormous. And it wasnt clear that, you know, 5 or 10 years later i would have a coherent book. At that time the book wasnt clear in my head yet. What i was clear about the amount of material to go through. The number of places they had would to go to put it took me from, you know, quebec city in dan to the carolinas along the east coast to scotland and england, to holland. Host why. Start with the farthest away. Guest okay. Host why scotland . I could understand england. Why scott land . Bring people up in to understanding why would a book on race, slavery, and the troubling American University. Why scott land . Guest its in the race book. Its the section about the rise of race and racial scot sland a tremendous influence on the rise of the colonial north america. And ultimately on the United States scottish immigrants are the Largest Group of free people. The Largest Group of free people to cross the atlantic. The pennsylvania back country. Appalachia. Yeah. And with this enormous migration. Also comes a migration of idea. The Scottish University in helping to modernize the colonial american colleges. Both scottish faculty who come to teach in the americas, scottish ministers who come govern over some of the schools, and then, i mean, just loads of American Students colonial students who those scotland to study science and study medicine and come back to north america to do things like establish the first medical school. The principle players the slave trade . Guest theyre not the usual suspects you look at. Theres a trade that comes out of scotland. But we have to remember small towns like that. We have to remember just how massive the slave trade is. And part behalf the book is about, in many ways, is actually the enormity of the africa trade in the 17th en18th search. How they shaped the Atlantic World and instituted the economy that connected europe to the americas to africa to south america. And created, in fact, a transoceanic trade. How to which the United States be born. Host in term of building the campuses, when did who were these founders of these universities . Were they slave traders . Guest no. Host they werent slave traders . Guest well, they are largely ministers. Okay. From the various denominations. And so, you know, theres the dutch reform which is now rutgers and theres the college of new jersey which is princeton. These are actually denomination schools. They are schools that emerge out of the church communion. And then once they are established and as you establish them, you need money to do it. And a lot of money. The would be england. Why would they want to fund . Guest thats one of the problems. I jokingly described it to myself as i was working on the chapters, you know, why would the english want to give the pure contains money to establish a school of new england in massachusetts when in fact, getting rid of the pure contain school was a great goal. [laughter] theres not necessarily warm friendly relationship between them. This is where we get back to native American History and native americans become king. Because the american columnist were fearful at raising money, using the e advantagelation of native people as the goal. And so sending off missionary to england to britain under and raising money under the claim that evangelizing native people in the american. The first at harvard is the indian college. Thats where the money is coming from. And, you know, accelerates the crumbling of theytive society on the frontier and on the borders. So they are quote, unquote, slave owners. Then eventually after independence. Guest even before. They do turn guest yeah. Host they turn pretty quickly. These are religious schools to begin with. Very quickly they have to figure out the sources of funding. One source is going to be europe, england in particular, and raising money often under the claim one is evangelizing native american. The other source of money they have available to them is the rising population of colonial elites. People who actually have money within the colony. And in particular, both in england and in the americas, that group is made up of slave traders who are operating out of places like bar barbados and jamie jamaica. Many of them actually live are absentee landlord that live in england and manage it from afar. Often sending children the male children, the oldest might go military or the oldest might go to own to land. The mid child and the next youngest go off to the colony. I point out they station their children the key in the operation to the family networks. Who studied for a long time. But also send to the caribbean. And establish they send another son to england. And from the various points, they can manage their operations more e fresh single female. Move more money and goods efficiency and give them a chance to make the strategic changes in the plans are for these long extended shipping voyages. Through increasingly wealthy men and families. Right. Guest with interest in the americas. And begin to advertise themselves actually to this class of family. The classes. In fact one of the chapters is named after it. In which he says, you know, the very name of the indian. It come imply great love. Then he goes on to promise that if they send their boys to princeton, theyll be taken care of. And guided and supervised. And turned in to substantial and responsible young men. But if you send them off to england, the british universities are too large and too decentralized to give them that kind of attention. And what hes really selling is the potential of the american colonies to serve themselves and the potential of these education nam institutions to cater to the needs of the colonial elite. The colonialial elite is largely a product of the slave trade. The slave trading merchants and in large plantation own inert caribbean and americas. When we read the of course the reviews as most people probably will before. Without getting to the meat and were talking with professor Craig Steven Wilder. The book, the subtitle race, slavery, and the troubled history of american universities the impression is that slaves built these universities not just the money from the slave trade finance but actually the presence of slaves on it . The university of harvard and yale, pribs princeton, and brown. Or every capacity . Enslaved people in the hotels are often called dormitory of the colonial period that clean up after the students. They prepare meals. They collect wood. They gather wood for fires. They are in charge of lightening the cakdz candling and putting them out in the evening. Many of the president s owned enslaved people. Within a couple of years the purchase at least two people. One for the main house and one for the campus house. Now, were these individuals under the ownership of the university incorporated or under the ownership of various professors . Guest right. I mean, i think the problem is that this is a kind of technical issue. That is a little bit harder to deceiver in the colonial period. For instance, there was a one of the ways i was exploring this. I looked at a lot of county records in which the colleges where the colleges are. When you look at the colonial county records, often youll have the name of the president or the name of the professor and then listed with their taxable property. Will be an enslaved person or two or three. Host did students bring slaves . Guest yes. Host they brought them to cool them . Guest yes. If you think about this, if you look at the name of the president and three lines over, part of his taxable property is an enslaved person bhap youll often have in the case of princeton or harvard, youll actually have the president s name ditto the college. Who ons the person . In the Common Knowledge of the town, of the local area. The president and the college are kind of inseparateble anyway. And so i didnt spend lot of time actually trying to deceiver that. Host well college town. Guest right. And thats [inaudible conversations] and more College Towns than now. Guest if you can believe that. Even more dominant. These are host the came bridge would be a college town. Guest yeah. Nassau the tallest building in british america when its built. These colleges dominate the environment. One of the things that i also found fascinating about ebony and ivy as you talk about the slaves who build campuses and wait order the faculty and students was the curriculum. This white supreme single that was perpetrated. So you a teach ier. What we now consider liberal institutions. Teaching white supreme single female im not trying to sound as if im surprised, but if you if you said that now about yale or harvard, you know, people would think, well, my goodness, when did this start . How did they get started . So you sort of explain that because of the people who started these universities. Guest the origin s in the source of their funding and the continued remember, at the American Revolution approaches, and the tension between the colonies and england increase, the capacity of the american to raise money in england. Host right. Guest the indian college, hazard. Is largely, you know, taken down at the end of the 17th century and beginning of the 18th century. Host some believe they cant financially guest they are still using it. And to be perfectly honest. I tread in the book is as the native American Military threat in new england decline, the interest in evangelizing native american declines. Within the book and saints related to the question that you asked me earlier about did students bring slaves to campus. Yes. They do. At william and mary they pay fees to house the slaves on campus. At klum col