Package our First Defense of exception nowadays and you can get it from lots of different races, but its a feeling that youre special and destined for special things. The second element is almost seemingly the opposite and that is a dash of insecurity to the exception a la the end of the feeling quite done and are not quite good enough yet. The third element is impulse control or selfdiscipline and the ability to persevere and resist temptation. Its really the interplay between those first two qualities that kiss at the crux of the book. You know, how does somebody simultaneously feel insecure in superior . We think that is what precisely generates drive and this feeling like i need to show the world. I need to show other people. I need to prove myself. What is the third impulse control . That allows you to be able to do it. You can have all the drives and hunger, but if you arent trained or dont have the ability to hang in there and persist, even very driven people tend to give out. Is very precise volumetric reading of each of these quakes use the word a second ago for the sense of inferiority. Are they equally balanced . Guest we havent developed a metric yet that would let us measure. Its a great question now. What we do think from our research is if you pile on too much at any one of the elements, produces bad results. This will be discussed in the talk the pathologies triple package can bring with it. It does seem you need some kind of balance, but we have not figured out how to precisely measure it yet. Its an original hypothesis. I think it has enormous explanatory power for the groups that have been to be doing well right now and for individuals. People who are very, very driven. Of course we havent been able to test it in our laboratory. We dont know how to tai chi did exactly. Thats the point of the book. We offer it as a new way to think about success. Its dark side and psychological underpinnings. We have a whole chapter on pathology which essentially fear too much of one or the other, it kind of doesnt work in really bad things happening. Even when they all are working together as the ascension of achievement that has its own pathology. Postcode talk about what kind of success you see coming out of the triple package. Just go sure. Of all, just a treachery race and possible misunderstandings, we do not define success as material wealth. The definition of success as far as im concerned is simple. Success means achieving your goals, whatever they are. We focus a conventional mention of success like income, educational achieve in in the first six chapters about the get the reason for that if it is an important goal for many people. We do say however in the last two chapters that that kind of success is extremely narrow. Two, we think the triple package element actually can assist people in power then to achieve any success, not be purely material. In fact come as individuals who have these qualities grow up in america, and they tend predictably secondgeneration to have that kind of interest in Creative Destruction relationship between their culture and American Cultures such the secondgeneration kids in immigrant communities start very typically looking back at their parents and grandparents generation insane we dont want to be successfully told us do. Were not interested in those jobs he said were the only ones. Instead, they make the decisions to be a standup comic or artist or Something Like that. Yet what we found is aspirational at least the same qualities can help them do that and achieve very different kinds of goals. Host lets talk about the part of the book i think has been most controversial and people are talking about most, which is your identification of particular groups has been an argument that the triple package. Talk about which groups he identified and how that triple package manifests itself in their success. Guest okay, so this is a snapshot. Thats part of the problem is people are saved eight groups are better. Of course if you look at the title, its about the rights and all of cultural groups. The groups that are very, very driven and successful change dramatically over time. Different groups 10 years ago. We actually try to be very, very systematic. We relied kind of trade unsent this data. We calculated around figures. At a lot of assistance and were very transparent. What kind of going down the ancestry tables. The census does not identify people by researching. We explain which groups would exclude. For example, in english american category. We werent sure what that was captured. We have sought the triple package like south africanamericans because they were under 100,000. We didnt know what to do at the group of 50 people. I thought were pretty systematic, went straight down. We elected a groups that were most striking a disproportionately successful according to these conventional metrics. Income, professional attainment, educational attainment. We chose those metrics because theyre available. Very they are difficult to measure artistic success. Although in our section, most of our focus is on artistic and all kinds of different host can i stop you for a second. Six of the groups to identify your groups that are more mens and jewish or not. Guest those elected alternative measures in places like the Pew Foundation independent researchers put together income data and reset the state dont quite match up. We tried to be pretty systematic and is pretty transparent. As we discussed, they actually dont have that disproportionally high median household in kind and day, for one thing, when you talk about households, a much larger percentage of women do not work. Double the women are described as housewives. We actually chose a group because i think it may be the most upwardly mobile group in america. The rates, statistics 30 years ago you could barely find a mormon and we laid out the different axes of their achievement right now, including Business Schools and law schools, professional schools. So those are different categories. So we ended up looking that more mens and jews and going down. Iranian americans, Chinese Americans that seek to borosilicate nigerian americans and cubanamericans and we also explained, they are extreme outliers for their population groups and also very high rates of upward mobility in very, very strong educational performance. As the sake, we could looked to japaneseamericans. He could have gone down further down the list. At their space limitations elected a groups. Host pick one of your groups paired with your Favorite Group . Guest we could talk about the mormons. Host how do we see the triple package in action with more mens and particular . Guest this remarkable fact many people sense that we really documented several groups that are really outperforming the National Average in terms of an common Educational Achievement. We just went to the ones we focused on. We identified those independently as rigorously as we could. Then we started looking at the groups, wondering come asking ourselves if are going to find many cultural commonality. Before i get to the mormons, why look for cultural commonalities . Lightness of the Something Else might explain the success . Afula talk about alternative explanations later. In a nutshell if you look at Something Like asianamerican, academic success can instantly struck if you do your homework in the researches are finding that their generation come asianamericans are outperforming for a asianamericans overall score 140 points higher on average than the rest of the country and yet their generation dont. Disproving that is biological. Interacting this discourse in stereotype, showing their something cultural going on in those groups in the families. So thats our starting point because ruling out alternative explanations there something going on in the culture. And sure enough we found we didnt expect to. Startling commonalities. They have this chosen people narrative that is borrowed from the jewish experience. They have their moses, exodus. Its also inherited from american puritans. An interesting combination of these two histories piece of joseph smith when he found smarminess and really thinks he has discovered a new religion and his followers believe theyve been sent to her to redeem Christian Church in mankind and moreover today they believe their way of life is morally superior and the words that are used in one of the leading discussions of mormon culture as they see themselves as the island of orality or a sea of decay. They have a strong sense of cents now the recall superiority. In security is fascinating. They deeply feel a sense of rejection, a sense of not being worked on is fully american. They noted that but time as a cold group from a hundred years ago. There is vilified because of their practices polygamy. For decades they have felt on the outside and the fact they had to hear mitt romney sounds described as creepy because they were so clean cut as an example and theyll talk about that in the field and this will be their worst. This is described in their own autobiographies. Guest persecution, too. They were hunted down and chased across the country. So they tell themselves this whole story of insecurity, which is a matter of peril and being looked down upon. Theyll say words like we feel a chip on the shoulder. We have to prove ourselves we can be just as big rent tuxedos americans and they seem to be motivated by that combination of this exception now the living in a society where they have this outside persecuted relationship and final impulse control. It strikes you in the face with a look at the. They practice practices and habits of impulse control different from mainstream americans. These are wellknown. They dont smoke. They dont drink. They dont drink caffeine or soda and they start doing this with their kids in this or not to be extremely relevant to her finding. They dont suddenly start this when youre adults. They start these habits of impulse control what their kids from preschool. They give them banks were they have to tie up. They have to pay 10 away. They start them on practices of having to go to church. Still from the very early age. By the time they teenagers, mormon kids dont smoke as much, dr. To. Its not stereotype. It seems to be a matter of fact. All three elements are present in the case. Host what is the beneficiary presold terms of income for success . What is the outcome . Guest as with all the groups we look back, the mormons are experiencing exceptional rates of upward mobility. Now we can demonstrate that for some of the other groups for certain kinds of statistical data. What is so striking about it is i worked on wall street 40 years ago and i remember very well that it was difficult to find a mormon on wall street. He didnt find in the corporate boardrooms much either. In the last 30 years now today they are powerhouses in some of americas best recognize corporations that american express, citigroup, fisherprice, sears, hudson and many, many others. Jet blue, the list actually goes on. So we have the three we are talking about. Extraordinary seven record of success and then of course we have a causal hypothesis that these traits are causing through motivation and drive, which by the way our accounts can deliver and know all countries other groups can. Host lets talk a little bit about he talked about excluding other explanations. Some criticize your book say setting aside more mens and jews for a second model yogurt and backend, what youve identified a secure eristic striping of immigrants in the recent decline in thirdgeneration chineseamerican insist they are no longer engaged in an great struggle. They are selfselected to be ambitious and hardworking and anyone who makes a journey that card is of course going to have that in them and convey a lot of that to their children. Talk about why the triple package is not immigration. Guest that part we are sympathetic to. I dont see why thats a critique. I think that most accounts a success, with the talk about individual successor group accounts, what they miss is drive. So say youre born wealthy. Of course people were born wealthy. We totally agree with that. The explanations are you just came, you are the children of educated immigrants. Thats a big part of our book. Of course that gives you an advantage. What is missing is motivation. You know, the most educated group had the most networks and we are not the first people to say the 40, 50, 60s, not only do they lack the drive, it was to be striving in this hunger. To answer your question, there are two types of selfselection hypotheses when putting aside her two most important cases, the jews and the mormon, the idea that the only immigrants to our succeeded right now are the ones that come over with education, with the scales. That unfortunately is just not true. As a politically correct explanation, which is that we dont have to look in the cultures because its all for your parents are. Its definitely big deal with groups like Indian Americans, cubanamericans. But it is not, for example, true but chineseamericans. These findings are replicated not just in the United States, l. A. , but toronto in the u. K. Over and over, and the studies show the children of totally uneducated chinese, korean or vietnamese immigrants and these are people whose parents sometimes obliterate. Factory workers, restaurant workers, taxicab drivers are raising academically faster than counterparts and they are hitting it out of the park with these test scores. That is the part that is hard to get traction on because of course we acknowledge that if youre the child of a Software Engineer that you have a leg to. But this other piece that is so fascinating and even when youre talking about cubanamericans, people want to say they came over with education. Actually, there was only a third of the first wave. Lets just say the whole pile came over. What is missing from most accounts is the mechanism. How does the firstgeneration of immigrants, unfair that in a crowded place and i have no job because my degree doesnt count here. Have to work as a janitor or a fruit picker. How does that jive with education, whatever you want colic, that Human Capital get transmitted to the next generation . We agree that it helps to be an immigrant and that most immigrants who come here actually think this is of any background. El salvador, sudan. I think refugees disproportionally have the triple package on an individual level. The question is how do you convey this trace to the next generation . That is for the drive comes in. Host theres no reason to think there would be people in poverty in india were lazy and not working hard and absent a triple package . Your book doesnt try to say that india should be the most wealthy unders because Indian Americans are doing well . Now, thats backwards. Guest this is not a book that makes comparison between countries. We dont say indian culture, whatever that might be odd to admit india more prosperous country. The best thing i know that you compare since her why they failed to claim its institutions are fundamental a functioning free market with the color protections and inclusivity as well as political inclusivity. That is what makes nations less prosperous. American institutions in combination with cultural traits that allow people to succeed in the country. Its not the institutions may seem in india or cuba obviously. It is a great question because it clarifies how we are using culture. We are not talking about the essentialist hinduism or five gazetteer confucianism. Its the interaction of people. They come over strong middle kingdom identity. Chinese have a strong sense of exceptionalism. But once you come to this country, that is all mixed up. Youre an outsider, a funny accent. Is this dynamic play. Host okay can be yours for it can explain. It can explain morgans success, jewish success. These are two big cases in our book. In addition to that, to ideas of immigrants. Coming overtired levels of education. One is more bold, war but a faded. Lets look at the education and skills. Turns out over half of chinese immigrants do not go in just half of indian immigrants do not come over. We have a this stereotype in ahead of his coming over. This community has been well studied. They are mostly poor and very poorly educated. As a Large Community of people who have gone and done the research. Those immigrants are doing just as well is the case of the other immigrants which is odd. Chasseurs not the parental backgrounds. More important for our purposes, doing better and are better educated and off. Thats overlooking a period one of these groups doing that are than the National Average, the white average . And from families high on associate economic level, we are not saying they are doing better than this other group that is persistently low in a group in america. That is not a problem were trying to solve. We are asking how come they are doing better and better educated kids who come from a better place. Its got to be something in the culture. Host you are focusing the upside, the positive success story. Their plan of immigrant groups not doing as well as chineseamericans fire. So what is a group if you look is not doing well. Guest well, actually, we look at some of the most disadvantaged groups in our book. I think we are pretty it like on the first page we are saying this has nothing to do with the triple package. Host i want an immigrant group. What is an immigrant group not doing well . Guest there are many refugee groups coming out very. Obviously they come over with nothing and so i will just say sudan for the hmong are a very, important group. You know host why are hmong income level in Educational Achievement low . Guest is a snapshot. We are looking some of these groups honestly that are very poor right now in my generation will rise disproportionately. I do. We have to work with refugee groups in new haven. I see these qualities. First of all, institutional problems. Some of them cant get a job. So theres all these things that have nothing to do with how hard theyve worked. Its discrimination sometimes. If you were asking me why are some of them not at the highest levels of income, some people have had their entire families killed. They are working and working. I believe if we can track it, theyll have a disproportionate success. Its a snapshot of time. If you look at the poorest income groups they are war refugees in people come through civil conflict and all kinds of historical reasons. Host i think one question i had about the books are thinking about to the