Put on hold by the request of marias mother because of her age, and the two honored that. It was if you read theq letters, youll know that the tone of the letters has the kind of effect of a tutor and a student. Maria had actually been in bohnhoffers confirm make class when she was 12 or 13 and ufailed the confirmation class, and eventually was passed by someone else. And they had very different termerments, very different tastes. He found quite bizarre some of the rather provincial practices of the rural aristocracy that her family maintained, and its impossible to say what would have come of that engagement had he survived the war. I just dont know. This will be the final question. You guys are wonderful. I have one question. What did you think of Adolph Hitler . What did you think of him . What did what did you what did i thick of thick of him . Right. Well, what did i thick i think of him . Yes. Bohnhoffer called him the antichrist without a hint of irony. And bohnhoffer, as you may know, after this road trip across the United States in 1931 which is a fabulous movie waiting to be made with greg anybody in here bohnhoffer and his french pacifist in this beatup oldsmobile, drive from new york to chicago in may of 1931, theirs two others and they drop everyone off. Drive to new orleans and then drive out to laredo texas. Another thing i found in the files was post cart from waco, texas, from bohnhoffer. 4,000 miles driving in six weeks, 1200 miles on mexican trains so coming back to new york. When they get to new orleans, instead of retracing their route or, as we say, route back to new york, for chicago, they make a decision to turn the car due east and to drive right into the heart of the jim crow south in 1931. And so i with a geographyer i reconstructed with old maps and so forth this trip from new orleans, they would have gone thats may not mean anything to you through swaddle, picayune, hattiesburg, laurel, meridian, tuscaloosa, roll tide, birmingham. They drove within 20 miles of scottboro, alabama, the same month, in the spring of 1931, that seven young men were being tried in a lynch mob environment for allegations of rape and a crime. They drove up through new york. And it would make a wonderful story. Bohnhoffer became during that road trip, he becameif not then,ster deeply inclined towards pacifism. The frenchman was pass gist in mexico city they were going to a global seminar, conference, on christianity and pacifism. Bohnhoffer had not been a pacifist. He had german protestant marshall war theology throughout his system, and by 1932, 1933, he was a committed pacifist. One of his reasons for having an interest in gandhi. He bohnhoffer made speeches in he can cue many cal conferences on christ and peace that amounted to saying that if you want to know who jesus is, you read the sermon on the mount and do exactly what the sermon on the mount teaches. That the sermon on the mount is not metaphorically true. Its not an al gory. Its not key. Its not inspiration, its a literal application of the gospel of christ for the social and political order. But, by 1939, his principles pacifism had given way to the realization that an ethic of responsibility it was very similar. Didnt describe it this way in his writings but very similar to the whole notion of christian realism. Made it obligated him to do anything necessary to kill the antichrist, the madman, hitler. And this might be a there was no doubt about it, that bohnhoffer blessed, conferred blessings, and was deeply a part of the conspiracy to kill Hitler Hitler was the antichrist. This was bohnhoffers systems. Sounds fine to me, too. Thank you. So very much. [applause] we have lots of copies of the books by the register. He professor will sign books. Thank you for coming out. We really appreciate you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] booktv is on twitter. Follow us to get publishing news, scheduling updates, author information, and to talk directly with authors during our live programs. Twitter. Com booktv. Up next on booktv, afterwards with guest host, bob woodward of the winds winds. This week, john dean in his latest book, the nixon defense, what he knew and when he knew it in the book, the man who is congressional testimony led to president nixn0s resignation presents a more indepth look at the watergate scandal based on newly released odd tapes. Audio tapes. Hello, its great to be here with john dean. I was recalling, coming in here today, the studios, which are on capitol hill, that it was 39 summers ago when you held the country and the world mesmerized with four days of sworn testimony before the Senate Watergate committee, and theres really been no new story like that since, and one of the things that happened when the secret taping system was disclosed in the nixon offices and phones, which you didnt know about, and then suspected. You suspected but did not know at all. You had no confidence, and then those tapes came out and vein rick indicated almost 100 exactly what you said. I ran into a tv an cor who reminded me he was six years old when you testified. So i think for those who werent around, first thing i would ask is, what was watergate . Guest well, i suspect that this table theres probably more collective knowledge between you and i on that subject than any table could ever be set to address the matter. You and i know that subject well. You know it from your reporting. I know it from living it, and then taking a second look, a third look, and a fourth look, and study. Watergate is defined in most dictionaries as abuse of high power occurring during the nixon presidency for political purposes. Now, you and i know thats a pretty weak definition of rather sad chapter in american history. It was a period that america did not shine it brightest. The presidency showed its underbelly, and to this day, the legacy of those events affect the way we govern. Host gather itself samer win who headed the Senate Watergate committee, said it was an assault on the integrity of the process of nominating president s and electing them. In other words, that nixon and his people were tampering with everyones vote in a way. Do you agree . Guest i agree with that, bob. But what happened is over the years the definition of watergate has so expanded from the breakin, the coverup, the interference and influencing of election process, to just general nixonan because of tower, and today watergate has a very broad meaning. You and i and today were going to be talking about a very narrow area of that, but its indicative of the entire host why 39, 40 years late center because its 40 years ago that nixon resigned. Why have you jumped back into a total immersion in that period of the tapes, for that year, from the time that the watergate burglary until their existence was disclosed by alexander burtfield. Why have you done that . If i had known what i was getting into i dont think i would have gotten into it. I started out my publisher suggested i might revisit that subject in light of the 40th 40th anniversary of watergate. That is a lowly anniversary that goes from june 17th of 2012 till august 9 of 2014, which is the period between the breakin and the arrests, and thicksons resignation. So, i originally started out what i want to answer is a question of how could somebody as savvy as Richard Nixon, politically, very, very astute, and intelligent, mess up his presidency on the bungled burglary that provoked it all the way he did . Thats what i set out to answer. I assumed in doing so that much of the answer would be found in existing tapes. I had no knowledge, until i started cataloguing, who had taped what and what was available, that only host there are hundreds of hours of tapes that no one has listened to or transcribed. Guest i found over 600 conversations that, as best i can tell, nobody outside the archives and processing the tapes ever looked at. Host what did you learn . Somebody reads this book, what will lay learn they didnt know. Guest probably every page has something i didnt know. I dont know how many pages had things you didnt know, but wore pretty sophisticated rathers and knowledgeable. I didnt know, for example, that Richard Nixon was at the outset was only getting his knowledge and information from hall des moines initial ehrlichman and your reporting in the Washington Post. As well as others. Because the post is the only paper covering it. Host struck me as time and time again he says he read those articles, and he is angry about them, he wonders how information is getting out. Guest did you always wonder how he felt about that before . Host well, of course, and. Guest now you know. Host and he keeps he says, thats a story in the post. Where is that going . Is that coming from here . Is that coming from the committee to reelect is it coming from the fbi . And soing for. Just to step back for somebody, what do we learn about nixon that we didnt know . Because we knew about the criminality, we knew about the abuse of power. We knew about the kind of the smallmindedness that everything seemed to be about nixon. What is added here . Guest what i did, as you know, i follow it daybyday to try to understand how this thing fell apart, and if you put i pull away to a wide angle, i see a combination of two things. Character, a mans, which host which is . Guest he had no hesitation to break the law. He had no hesitation to pretty much do anything he thought might be a solution to a problem. Very expedient. But the most striking thing is, his decisionmaking is so sloppy, so unprocessed, so seat of the pants, i was stunned, and i doesnt reflect other areas of hi presidency. He knows when he is making these decisions that are important, particularly as it progresses. Now, how much of this pattern we see here, which ive dug out in some detail, is true of vietnam, china. Host going on about watergate with his top aides, haldeman, ehrlichman, you. Theyre rambling and not focused and no kind of, lets march through this and make a decision, and he will just say something, almost at random, and then hall haulds man will say something. And then 30 minutes later have the same conversation with somebody else, if not the same person. Host and say contradictory things. Guest exactly. Host at one opinion you called debt i love the metaphor as as a participant, you as his counsel at that time, not in the inner circle, but you say this was the devils merrygoround should that was a met afor i picked up as i was writing. I thought about the circular nature of the watergate conversations, and how the same tune and the same circles repeated. Sometimes a slight difference but basically over and over. But the man with the lever is right in the middle is Richard Nixon and never pulls it. Thats why i said this is the devils merrygoround because these conversations were not at a very high level of conversation. This isnt deep thought. This is pretty expedient thinking. Host as i went through it and there were a good number of things i learned, and one was about chuck colson, someone always hanging in the shadow, and guest i tried not to be pejorative and call him special projects. Host but he had his reputation and he eventually pled guilty to related crimes and i think did seven months in jail. And the fascinating moment, Carl Bernstein and i wrote a story on october 10th in the post p. O. W. Saying that watergate what part of larger operation, sabotage and espionage, bringing forth the details about Donald Segretti, the lawyer, who was hired to run all kinds of agents against nixon, and then colson comes in its fascinating. He said i did a hell of a lot of things on the outside, and you never read about it. The things you read about were the things i didnt do, but you see, i did things out of boston which was his home town we did some blackmail, and then nixon goes, my god, even he is surprised. And then colson says, ill go to my grave before i ever disclose it. But we did a hell of a lot of things and never get caught. Things that and then he just abruptly guest catches himself. Host stopped, and nixon never inquiries. Guest no. Host theres no curiosity. Your guy comes in and youre president , said we blackmailed and a hell of a lot of things, you either know about them or suspect or you would think he would want to know. Guest in the book, as youll recall, i actually note that chuck made a similar boast to me. Host yes in a footnote you say that. Guest he also takes this to his grave, as he said. We dont know what these things are, and its interesting the way he just caught himself before he shared it with nixon, and nixon does not have the inclination to inquire. Host tell them about your conversation with colson at the time, because in the footnote you say he told you he did things that would send him to jail, and that theyre never going to come out. Guest he said because only i know about them. Host did you ask . Guest i did and he would not tell me. He said im not going to tell you what i did. Thats the reason that he he said theres one way to keep a secret in this town and only you know it. Pretty good analysis. Host colson is deceased, nixon is deceased, and so there may be a whole other aspect guest chuck did something very effective. He took all of his president ial papers with him that were at all controversial. He would give what he wanted to, to wheaton college. I sent somebody out years ago to take a look, and they said theres nothing in there. So he clearly pruned out anything is in earned that were troublesome and theyre gone i assume theyre gone. Host do you think he was a hidden force in all of this, the dirty tricks, illegalities. Guest listening to the tapes theres an interesting pattern. Nixon is a different person with different people. He responds at a different level of conversation. With me he is always on a fairly high level. Colson brings out his absolute darkest side. Haldeman next. The two of them seem to draw something out of host haldeman was nixons chief of staff, alter ego. That do we learn about haldeman in these tapes . Guest we learn he is extremely intelligent. He is the one that seems most conscience of the fact theyre taping from time to time, when it gets really kind of dicey, he backs off. In fact host and shuts up. Guest or makes great to all to us statements that are favorable. Nixon occasionally remembers he is recording, but unlike haldeman, who seems to be very cautious. In fact theres a situation that happens at the end after they left and he knows they have not pulled the machinery out host the taping machine. Guest the taping machine. Haldeman starts calling for meetings in the lincoln sitting room. Theres only one reason he wanted to meet in the lincoln sitting room. Thats when theyre cracking the deals as to how theyre going to deal with things and he doesnt want it on tape. Guest of course, had mom is looking for a pardon at that point. Guest not at that point. Host the other thing is, as you say, who guest excuse me. On the pardon point i think the quid pro quo with nixon this is hinted in conversations. If i survive this i will pardon people. Host he said, promise that, that no one would go to jail. Guest the problem is he didnt survive it. So he didnt honor his commitment because, as you know, haldeman and ehrlichman, from your final days research, they tried desperately to get a pardon. Host and of course nixon, physical the moment he resigned could have issued unreviewable guest probably 2009 strongest president ial powers. No one can really contest it. It just an unchecked power. Host in april 1973 theres a tape one of the many that fascinated me and this is a couple of weeks before haldeman and ehrlichman are resigned and you leave guest wasnt that fascinating, how he has to manipulate them off the staff . Had you known that . Host a little bit of it. Guest i had no idea that he had to go through the he really has to steve them, if you deceive them to get them to host oh, yes, and then they deceived each other, and then theres but this one really struck me because ehrlichman, the second closest aide who had been the counsel, comes in and talks about the watergate coverup, and he says there were eight or ten people around the white house who knew about this. And then nixon says, well, first, haldeman, who is there, says, oh, i knew, all kinds of people knew about the coverup, and then nixon says, well, i knew it. I knew it. And then you write, which i think is quite accurate, realizing he just confessed and possibly realizing he had been recorded, the president immediately tried, rather awkwardly, to backtrack, and then he is heard on the tape saying, i knew, i must say, though, i didnt know. And theres this kind of gobbledygook and if you dig it out you realize they all know what is going on. Guest of course they know. And they confess it. Its clear. Host why were they covering up . What were they covering up . Guest i think initially its clear that nixon is covering up for mitchell. He is concerned about his friend. Haldeman once told me that Richard Nixon believed he was president because of john mitchell. Right or wrong. Host his Campaign Manager. Guest his friend, nudged him to do it, and encouraged him to do it and made it possible, giving him a good base in new york. Then just felt really great at great affection for mitchell, and did not want this to splash on mitchell. So thats where it starts. But he is also worried, something very interesting, bob, and i dont do at love commentary. I just let the facts roll out host this is a fashion of presentation in a very interesting way, that you were able to rein you must have had a good editor. Guest i did, and i tried to edit myself along the way to stay out of it, if you will. But one of the things that is very apparent, very early, is he is concerned if he has said something to colson that has triggered the watergate breakin. I didnt elaborate on that. But this is a subtext in these conversations. You can tell from the tone of voices, you can tell from the way somebody probes something, i think he thinks that he might have told colson to tell hunt to break in, because he had earlier done that. I cite i put a footnote on one of those conversations in 71 during the pentagon papers episode, where he literally is pounding on his desk, demanding they break into Brookings Institute use where they suspect thread was a secret report on the vietnam bombing halt. Guest exactly. Host if you listen to that tape, nixon is just enraged at what the i want you to get in there, safe blown, and wont let it go, and subsequent tapes this is in 1971, now, a year before watergate he is ordering the breakin, and voices great disappointment they didnt do what he asked. Guest you know who turn that off . Host you did. You went out there. Guest heat how i got myself on the outs, if you will. So i knew nothing about the plumbers operations because i had the host remind people what the plumbers operation was. Guest the special Investigations Unit