Show the nittygritty of race, grappled with political consequences, talked about shifting between a father from kenya in the white mother from kansas, their heritage, and speaking as a biracial child trying to fit in. He brings all of that to bear on the oval office and is a man who has a brilliant understanding of the political consequences of race but has been reticent to discuss these issues for understandable reasons. The moment he begins to speak about race not only do his numbers tank, but there is quite a bit of grief, consternation, anxiety, and fingerpointing. We can say thats pretty much anything he does because the division is not in society but in his blackbody that has marked the presidency in a way that will be permanent. Never again can the presidency as an institution exist without the history of a black man having graced its roster for two terms. Struggling on the issue of race, trying to grapple with the best way to address the nation about some racial crises that prevail. Host lets talk about the struggle. You mentioned that his poll numbers tank. The 1st issue, i remember early on in his presidency, the beer summit issue. You address that in this book. Guest right, returned from a trip to china, discovered his door was jammed in cambridge, massachusetts, got his driver to help them jimmy opened the door. A passerby saw it and thought something was askew. Call the police. They came. Discovered it was professor gates home. There was some tension. Professor gates was subsequently lured, if you believe the story, onto his porch and then arrested. The president said, this is my friend and says, people would think the police were acting stupidly. He said, lets not deny that racial profiling is a problem. What he said those words, that caused an entire weeks with of controversy. Eventually the arresting officer and professor gates were brought to the white house with Vice President biden and president obama for what was dubbed a beer summit to personally resolve broader issues. That did set the tone for president obamas subsequent engagement with race. Host in that moment really, the foreshadowing of things to come, he unknowingly sparked a conversation on racial profiling. Toward the end of that 1st term we had trade on martin. He talk about that in the 1st chapter. His trial and hours. Talk about the relationship, that link that has gone through your book. Talk to me about those issues to the end of the book where you end of the sermon at the church in South Carolina. Guest you are absolutely right. Contending with racial difference, crisis, black people who are victims of certain forms of violence from individual private citizens like George Zimmerman killing mr. Martin, the white gentlemen who killed jordan davis because his music was too loud and they got into an argument. And so when we look at what happened and ferguson with Michael Brown being killed by the policeman, Darren Wilson when we look at what happened in South Carolina in the church, where an armed white racist and white supremacist murdered nine innocent souls. Both from the state through the police and their Violence Toward unarmed by people and in the Broader Society where white racial violence had a resurgence ironically and paradoxically enough under the 1st black presidency obama had to contend with the ebb and flow of race. You play a significant role in many instances because us questions that were on the minds of millions of black people. I want to thank you on behalf of black america because your questions were timely and relevant. Not necessarily questions the president wanted to address, but he did respond. Barack obama determined early on, this is not a kind of argument i conversation unnecessarily want to have. If i cant control the conditions, then i will be hesitant to engage in racial discourse and rhetoric because it will only inflame passions and exacerbate tension. The problem is when racial crises begin to occur and flair along the trajectory of racial hostility he was slow to the uptake, not really engaged with the issue, wanting and preferring to allow it to slide on the one hand, and when he did address the issue of race occasionally he would chide versus the structural inequities that could be addressed. That presented a problematic situation for him racially. As i argue in the book, his strategy of strategic inadvertence, making explicit his criticisms of black people, that difference in contrast showed us his thinking in the difficulties he confronted. Host you are touching on so much. Guest well, the president had these fantasies. Why wouldnt be. He has a fantasy. I wish i could say what i really believe. You know, i am sure all president s two. You can imagine the tensions of living in the skin them barack obama are even more heavy and weighty. So he fantasized about going forward. Warren beatty that that movie out. He was depressed. Wanted to give family the money. She had a 2nd lease on life. Telling the truth of seaside. I argue in the book there was potential butterworth moments. He was able to prove jokes and humor and signify the things that we know deep inside he probably believed. For instance, for all of my conspiracy minded figures who think im out here trying to control american do things. You are right. It was a way of paying back symbolically the rhetorical investment that have been made and paving the way my other young black people to support this president. A transgender latina immigrant was making noise and saying, do something about the issue. He is like, no, you have got to go. Right now i cant. Finally one of the moments when he had this anger translator, the last Correspondence Dinner command he is so outrageous that the translator himself sigil the crazy. He had a bucket list. Funny and humorous, but it was a relief for the deeper tensions surrounding this president and his ability to speak to them. Host it is interesting covering the president. I see a clear difference between 1st and 2nd term barack obama. Talk to me about those differences. Why do you think that he was not able to do the bull worth moment 1st term . Guest the practical considerations were once you get elected, you want to get reelected. He had to overcome certain barriers. He had no record in terms of national politics. But he was a clean slate upon which people could inscribe their hopes, dreams, ambitions, fantasies , and inject their ideals. But now you have done stuff that people either like or dont like. And so now with that history and record weighing on him, and pinching in the public consciousness he had to negotiate those tensions. And when he won reelection people that often prognosticate, well, he will be a lot more radical. I dont think they thought he would come out speaking swahili and paint the white house black but be more explicit on the subject of race. And he wasnt until he was forced into it. Immediately after his reelection martha fudge, then the head of the Congressional Black Caucus said you are talking about diversity. You dont have diversity in terms of race. We are disappointed in you. That may not have been a move that in the 1st term was made because black people were intolerant of any criticism of president obama, even legitimate criticism. Using all manner of foul language. That is not what people were tolerant of or within expected. There is legitimate need for holding any president accountable, and one of the strengths collectively speaking has been the ability to say president must do the right thing. Fdr, Delano Roosevelt, Franklin Delano roosevelt was in the white house as president , met with the labor leader in the great educational leader and they put forth a black agenda. Franklin Delano Roosevelt said, i agree with everything you are saying. Go on the public sphere and show them your pressing me to do the right thing. That should have happened with barack obama but it didnt. We only had half a brother, so to speak. It is understandable because he was unfairly assaulted by the right wing, vicious obstructionism, so black people were empathetic because it reflected what we feel when we occupy similar spaces, and as a result he was not pushed and told black lives matter rolls up, white reactionary behavior flooded the culture. Then barack obama had to make serious speeches, like he did in selma in the sermon he delivered at Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina. Host as you say, africanamericans were in a quandary trying to support him but not give republicans or anyone against him fodder to go after him. Then there is a chapter want to talk about. You said something about my reporting. Talk to me about this chapter. Guest i had just finished quoting web do boys who famously talked about the souls of black folks. Getting a little goodie. Those who are scholars. So what i am suggesting is barack obama has had the tendency to remonstrate morally. Youre not doing the right thing. That is a tradition that goes back to slavery were black people hold each other to account, hold them responsible. Dont just tell me about what the white man is doing. Tell me what you are doing. Use what you have in your disposal to change your life. They also believe in structural impediments being removed. Obama has focused on one side of Holding Black people morally responsible. The problem is when he shapes and frames it in a certain fashion he makes it appear as if black people are uniquely disposed toward pathological behavior, and he throws them before the public in ways that seem to be inappropriate. As the Commencement Speaker at Morehouse College the president began to ache story eight young people by saying, hey, look and this is a black mens college. Host and graduates the most africanamericans in the country. Guest so at that college, you know, president obama said you must get you must work hard for everything you get, but no one is going to give you something you didnt earn. They have earned it, graduating from college. The only person who did not earn a degree that day was barack obama busy at an honorary degree. Then he said these black men have to make no excuses. It is curious why he would say those things to that particular audience. I think many black people rightfully were upset by that, and also i was at the 50th anniversary of the march on washington and he made some remarkably dispiriting arguments saying black people in certain fashion were responsible for the stalled progress of race in the civil rights movement, using the excuse of poverty not to rear their children are take care of themselves, in my words and interpretation and unfortunately he scolded black america with poor history, usually an excellent public interpreter, but at that time and during that season he was caught up in the desire to show broader White America that he could hold black people to account and because he genuinely and honestly believe those ideas. There was not much space in the culture to quibble or argue with him. Jesse jackson who although making the unfortunate comment, and black people rightfully responded host the moment on fox news before he became president. Guest the cameras and microphones or rolling and he made the comment that he wanted to cut his testicles off because he was speaking down the black people. That was the most important thing, he was condescending black people. Host there is such love and at that time was so much love for barack obama. There was a joke in the black community, jesus and then barack obama. Guest king jesus and barack. Host yes. With that, was he and his right to say it, or should have said it behind closed doors and the lights are off . Guest im not one to say things behind closed doors. I didnt know. I didnt get no invitation. That is malarkey to a certain degree, but there is something to be said for going to black institutions and engaging people in privacy where you can say rather more stern things. All groups have tough words for each other, sometimes in public and sometimes behind closed doors. What was most offensive is the president took the occasion of a grand celebration for the occasion of my graduation of a historically black college to ache story of those people and the harsh in his demeanor and language that was unnecessary, and as the president you have got the biggest bully pulpit. When he chooses those targets, he does so willingly, intentionally, and understanding what the consequences might be. Was he within his right . Of course he was,was, but he was wrong to do so within his right. Wrong to exploit the extraordinary support he received. Those were impressive numbers. Host in this goes to one of your topics in the book. I cant sound like martin. Now i wanti want to read a piece from page number 165 from a chapter, the scolded black folks. Are you better off . At a press conference in 2014 where it was probably noted the president fielded queries only from women fearlessly targeting gender to make a point, true to form blackness but not race took a backseat. Finally at the end of the conference there was a question forced about the state of black america in light of racial issues. Obama replied, better off now than when i came to office. That assertion does not hold up under even cursory examination. So why not . Guest only crunch numbers, there is no emotion, no religion. Clinically dispassionate, objective, empirically based estimation of what he said. When you look at all the numbers, black unemployment, black unemployment at one point was in excess of 14 percent which is heinous. And even then chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus said, if that were a white president we would be marching around the white house. When you look at every social index whether it was black kids being expelled from school that early age in greater numbers, look at the housing crisis, the later on in his 2nd term along with the great victories of samesex marriage in his own trade policy that he got cut, the housing victory that was not quite as much, but it was a significant victory. It does not have to be racial intent to judge housing practices that are unfair. It is the disparate impact. Even if you dont intend for it to be messed up, you have to hold people accountable, and that was a major victory. When you look at every social index, if you are aa White American you ought to be thankful for barack obama. Unemployment is down, job growth for an unprecedented amount of months, and the man has singlehandedly as a political figure encouraged the nation to do great things. He did extraordinary things, bailing out the automotive industry, bailing out the banks, gave us healthcare and tried to strengthen the economy all in the 1st two years were supposedly he had the support of his own party. The man has always had one hand tied behind his back in a fair fight. And he has done extremely well, except when it comes to addressing issues of race you and i have been in the white house at meetings where i expressed to him directly my disagreement. And that man is not defensive, at least he was not when you and i were together. Host a very practical. Guest i told him, i believe the direct approach that is targeted. He said i disagree. And we argued about it. Host you are getting ready to bring in amen. Guest love him. Why are you writing a book on obama, it could hurt his chances. Host of the president had to intervene. Tom joyner. Guest i dont want to make people think he is my friend, too. The president , to his credit, said i dont mind what michael is doing because legitimate criticism i can take. I dont like when people act as if i dont love black people. Host tell me this, and be honest. Are you critical or balanced . Guest that is a great question. It is balanced criticism. I appreciate what the man is up against. There has been no president of the United States that is faced with this menace had to face. The near criminal level of obstruction, the refusal to work with them, the refusal on the day he was inaugurated, when a group of republicans including Newt Gingrich got together and committed themselves to obstructing his presidency and turning him into a one term president. So if your end goal is not to govern well, not to help the president , to do the right thing, to obstruct all he does in order to render him a one term president , youre not only undermined democracy but are disloyal to the political ideals that have made this nation great. Barack obama to his credit state close to those ideals and tried to work with them for longer than many believe he should have tried to do so. I understand obstructionism, the rise of the tea party, how 54 percent of republicans now think he is a muslim. If he were muslim that would not be a problem, but it is not. He is a christian. Host i have seen him. That is my church. Guest it is real to him. Host and he preached. Guest the 1st there and other places as well. I have seen the extraordinary obstruction, racist resistance, horrible things done, and i acknowledge those, but that does not mean at the same time that president obama has not made miscues or mistakes as i see them, and i will share with the american reading public when i believe my interpretation of those failures are so we can work toward an appreciation for the greatness of his presidency this presidency but also some of the flaws that may be manifest. Host michael dyson, the author of the black presidency barack obama and the politics of race in america. When you think of Barack Hussein obama, race and politics will always follow him. He brought so much to the table, a black family to the white house. Guest a beautiful black family. Watching them grow up, seeing that brilliant and beautiful wife, a beautiful family, aesthetically pleasing. The beauty of their togetherness gave america a sense of what is achievable only permit the beauty and power in whatever form it takes. Host the chapter, page 214, you talk about 1st Lady Michelle obama. It is interesting. I want you to elaborate. Perhaps no other figure has civilized the complicated status of black women in america and the micro aggression to which theyre are subjected more prominently and first Lady Michelle obama. Many tasks are as the angry black woman. Reinforcing black female stereotypes that found sociological sway. Talk to me about that. Guest i think Michelle