Is very nice to see you again, thank you very much for doing this and for having me here. I wrote the book with a colleague who worked with the state department while i was the u. S. For the middle east and he is a recognized expert on history of israel he, palestinian negotiations and is really landlocked and other areas. We wrote it before the election, so course we did not know what was going to happen, nor did anyone else. But we wanted to make a contribution to the discussion primarily to defend the two state solution, there has been much criticism justified, after all it has been more than half a century and for a large portion of that time the two state solution has been the stated objective of the United States and is really leave you sent palestinian leaders, it hasnt been achieved in so many people feel that it is not a viable solution. Host hold that thought. I want want to brag about you for a minute first. I was going to say we are catching up on our experiences before congress and after congress, now theres going to be in the middle east there is bc and a. D. , theres before the election, bea and ae the selection being as consequential as it is. But first i wanted to say that long my career before crackers, bc, i worked in a carter white house. People used to joke the jimmy carter use the white house has a steppingstone for a serious career. No what i want essays about but you that you had a serious career the United States senate for 15 years and then you used that as a steppingstone for an even more serious career. Anyone who doesnt know that, you are the majority leader majority leader of the senate for the last six years. It will then instrumental negotiating a Peace Agreement with Northern Ireland, and everyone really said to you. You are awarded the president ial medal of freedom by clinton, you became director of the Major Company which is subject of a big book, and then you are chairman of a Major Law Firm so far come in the middle of all this, you also became the special envoy to the middle east and that i assume is what prompted this book, not just a lifelong interest in the middle east. Yes, the plug is ending, i did two tours of duty in the middle east, after the outbreak of what became known as the second palestinian in late september 2000 president clinton, then prime Prime Minister brock and then chairman arafat met with many other regional leaders including president mubarak in egypt, and egypt and in trying to do something to bring the fighting to an end and to get the parties back to negotiations they asked me to serve as chairman of the International Commission which i did while we were engaged in that activity two elections occurred in the United States president bush was elected, george w. Bush and in israel Prime Minister sharon was elected. We continued our efforts in may the following year and delivered a report to the two leaders to many others. So i served then and later as you described was president obamas for about two and a half years. Your known and he should for your huge success in Northern Ireland, before we would get to how the two years when israel and of course we want to talk about your recommendations, why do you think you are picked as middle east negotiator twice and because of chairman of this commission, was it Northern Ireland, or was it your lebanese background which i bet a few people know about or was it both . Guest i dont think my lebanese background had anything to do with it. My mother was lebanese and my father was irish. Host but you were raised by lebanese parents . Guest his parents were immigrants from ireland to the United States, my father was born in boston but never knew his parents, he was early on sent to an orphanage and he was raised in an orphanage in boston and adopted by an elderly couple who had emigrated from london to the United States and ended up in this enclave in a small town of waterville maine. So often happens one person came and then his brother came and then his cousin and pretty soon you had the families from the middle east drawn to the textile mills which were booming at the time. So everyone came over and came right in there. My mother was 18 when she came. And she spent 50 years working the night shift, that was then a substantial industry in new england, its no of course long since gone. But the first time i was asked to go there was my president clinton, it was following the effort in Northern Ireland where i had spent five years initially a president clintons request, so i think that the principal reason the president asked me to chair the International Commission beginning in 2000 and ending in 2001 was because of the experience we had together not only when i was Senate Majority leader during his presidency but then in Northern Ireland, think that was the principal reason. Host to that experience translate to the middle east . My guess is the middle east is a very different place. Guest far more difficult. Just about a year ago i spoke to a large group of irish americans in new york and i told them im about to Say Something i never thought i would believe her ever say publicly, but after five years in Northern Ireland i thought it was very tough, then i went to the middle east twice and now the irish seem very easy to deal with. Host but it differences Northern Ireland and ireland is a western country. The middle east is the middle east, and, yes you had a part ebonys background but somehow i would just assume it was a much harder sets of people to navigate on both sides, the israeli side in the palestinian side. Guest very much so. Important to keep in mind with the israelipalestinian issue is that it does not exist in isolation. That is part of a larger region that is itself an upheaval and tumult which affects the israelipalestinian relationship and is affected by the relationships, so i think many people tend to try to focus israelipalestinian issue as though it existed all by itself. You cant do that. That. It is much more complicated. Islam is now driven internally by many conflicts, the most prominent of which is the division between sunni and shiite, but there are many other internal conflicts. The entire middle east is torn by a range of intersecting sometimes contradictory conflicts, turkey and and the kurds, the arabs in the persians, as i said the sunni initiates. Host of politics, russian the russians now jockeying for position. Guest hugely affected and i think so you have to keep that in mind as you consider what should or shouldnt happen in terms of israelis and palestinians. Host am i not right that historically most of the countries in the region would say we cant make peace until this issue is resolved, whether fairly or not it was used as an excuse for not making peace. Guest it was. And it was important to the internal politics of many other countries in the region. But i think there is now a widespread recognition, certainly among the goals arabs that the principal threat of their sovereignty comes not from israel but from iran and that they in fact share with israel a common goal of resisting irans drive in the region which has gone on for a very long time. Most americans have a general familiarity a with the sunni and shia difference, but not many comprehend the length and depth of animosity between persians and arabs. Theres one story and i dont know if its true, i read it that when Saddam Hussein was hung after he was defeated, captured, tried and convicted, his last words as the noose was whipped around his next work, damn the persians, there is an ancient longstanding hostility between arabs and persians. When you layer that on top of the sunni shia divide top of the sunni shia divide in the many other conflicts within islam it will be turbulent for quite a time to come. Host everything in the middle east last for centuries. Nothing is short lifespan. But when we concluded the iran deal i think perhaps our country underestimated the anxiety in the sunni world about the steel with persians, let alone shiites and one of the unintended consequences i believe was actually which is no sunni arab state and israel had drawn closer together are some of the immediate neighbors and potential partners are enemies. Drawing closer together in a relatively private, limited way i one of the arguments for resolving the israelipalestinian conflict was that it would remove a large and i think principal obstacle to overt relationships and cooperation between the gulf arab states and israel in furthering their principal objective which is to resist her ran strive. Now i have to say i support iran arm still. I thought it was the right thing to do it doesnt purport to and irans ambition in the region but it means that whatever actions they take will be less effective theyre not having a nuclear happen then they would be to have one, i do think that we have to recognize that this struggle between persians and arabs and sunni and shia it says gone on for century and is likely to go on for a long time in the future. I believe it is very in the interest of both israelis and saudis and others in the region to have the israelipalestinian issue resolved so they can together address what they sharing, which is the principal foreign policy. I obviously great in the iran deal has at least contained the ambitions in ten or 15 years and some might be longer forever, maybe i dont think anything is forever in the middle east, but it has not contained irans, the proxy terror groups funded by ran, one could argue theyre getting more money since iran has access to funds that were tied up, but up, but israel was threatened by that ring of terror groups. Guest certainly, but its also true that on the sunni side there terror groups, the principle principle of which of course are what we know is isis which is an offshoot on one side and thomas are on the other, so you have this tumultuous complex situation perhaps Nothing Better illustrates it then the conflicting attitudes and forces in syria. So all of that threaten stability of any country in the region and principally israel. One of the reasons i think its important to maintain the two state solution as a viable option in the United States should continue to promote and advocate for is that israels longterm interests are best served by being accepted in the region by the arab states with whom it now shares a common interest with respect to iran, the the demographics in the region, the Population Trends are decidedly dangerous from israel. Question, how could it be a majority jewish state if it has a landmass for the birth rate is higher with the exception of Orthodox Jews in the arab population. Just the birth rate, the consequences of the birth rate, the numbers of people are changing dramatically and it is likely that by 2020 in the area between the jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea therell be more arabs than there are jews, if if there is a socalled one state solution which we do not believe is a feasible result, but if that were to occur israel would have to face the chase choice that they said they should not have to choose between being a Democratic State or jewish state. Host right, and israels formation, i, i remember that reading that issue came up and i think they said he would choose a smaller landmass in a jewish state over a bigger landmass. Guest its been a source of disagreement within israel for a long time, but notion of land for peace, israel is a very vibrant democratic societies you know. Guest every cabdriver has an opinion. Guest theyve had many internal disagreements and they continue to this day, they remain a substantial substantial number of people across the political spectrum who believe that separation from the palestinians is essential to israel survival. They remain many within israel include many in the government that believe the destiny is to have total control, some favor favor complete annexation of all of the territories that they regard as historic israel. So the conflict continues there, a divided side society, palestinians are divided president and the Palestinian Authority have long since renounced violence and accepted israels existence and have opted for peaceful negotiation to achieve the state. That has not worked and therefore gives ammunition, no pun intended to hamas and those in the Palestinian Society that believe only the use of violence will end the occupation and provide a palestinian state. In both societies you have substantial groups who do not favor the two states. Host i want to get to what you recommend in this idea of providing incentives which might help get there, but a couple more questions. They are up spring which nobody can call a spring anymore, the arab earthquake has really feel, it has created sadly or fueled the many failing states in the region when you add to that the refugee flow out of syria another huge problem which is destabilizing both lebanon and jordan among others. One of the things that occurred to me and was interesting is the argument of those that want to overthrow corrupt and tyrannical governments was not about israel. It was about their own governments. It was a bottomup revolution. I thought. I thought at least at the beginning of that, i thought it would lead to something positive and i thought for once israel is not the target do you agree with that . And what do you think . Guest yes, i do agree with it, i think we should put it in a historical perspective. For about 425 years the middle east was dominated by the Ottoman Empire based in turkey. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed in the aftermath of the First World War the Peace Agreement reached verse i carved up the region that we know as the middle east primarily between britain and france, then in their imperial modes. Now that political order lasted about 100 years and it is now collapsing under the internal stresses within many of the countries you describe and the internal stressors within it islam itself. The upheaval that is now occurring is the establishment of the next political order that will be established. We should not be to condon sending to the arabs because in the west when these political collapses occur it took a long time to establish new forms of governance. In france 6060 years elapsed from the revolution to the establishment of the French Republican in its current modern form. In england, arguably over 100 years, some say 200 depending on where you start and the many wars of the students and so forth. So it is going to take some time, i do think there will be successes, there will be failures, there will be home for a considerable amount of time into the future. I argue, that is one reason why its in israels interest to make an agreement, settle it now israel has an agreement, a treaty with egypt and a treaty with jordan, israel values those agreements, they are very helpful to israel and there in the interest of egypt and jordan, i believe in agreement with with the palestinians would serve the same purpose. Ive said theres many who disagree with that, but i believe that to be the case and i think the tumult in the region which will continue is an argument for reaching an agreement as opposed to not reaching one. Host so you spell out in this book what are the essential for parts of the agreement and the new spell at this point on incentive. Why dont we just go through this and i can read them off and i know you know what they are, so what are you just explain your big for issues that would be involved in a final agreement between israel and palestine. Guest we took what already was established by the parties over many decades of discussion and negotiation is the principal issues that have to be resolved, there are are in fact dozens of issues. There are many which are called minor but only in relation to the major. Host nothingness minor in the middle east or what is minor becomes major tomorrow. Guest a range of issues. But we discussed the principal ones which are territory, refugees, security, and jerusalem. Each of them extraordinarily difficult in each of them has been the subject of much debate, discussion and controversy over time. They will have to be resolved in negotiations between the parties, we feel strongly that an agreement cannot be imposed on them or the region, we think that is obviously very difficult , that is clear to everyone the fact that so much effort has been put into it so far without success, 12 president s, president s, trump will be the 13th, 20 secretaries of state, his secretary of state will be the 20 first, many many israeli leaders and palestinian leaders and me. All of us failed to get an agreement, that doesnt mean an agreement is impossible i think its very much in the interest of both israelis and palestinians and what we argues that we should not force it on them, the incoming president should act when he judges that the parties themselves are serious enough to promise a reasonable prospect of success. One argument we have made is that in opposition to those that argue that the United States should punish both sides as a way to get them there, we argue that punishment will not work, it was common for arabs to say to me, well israel so dependent on the United States if you just cut off funding will do what you want and israelis from net and an on down said there so dependent if you just come i dont think either will work, but creating creating incentives. What we suggested is that we do know what will be needed at the end of a process that leads to an agreement that is it clearly will have to be some mechanism for compensating refugees for taking care of the transfer costs, the housing, the new construction as you move many people, both sides. You need settlers back into israel and t