Israelis. So in every way its a fascinating place, its a fascinating gateway, if you like, to see the history of the world. Host is jerusalem strategically located . How did it become so vital . Guest absolutely not. Absolutely not. Its not strategically valuable at all. It became strategically valuable when it became a great city and a great fortress. But actually, its far there the trade routes. When armies are invading up and down, are invading egypt or from egypt invading in towards syria, they march up the coast as napoleon did too. Theres another one i didnt mention. And they dont go anywhere near jerusalem. So jerusalem is irrelevant. Jerusalem is all about holiness. Its value comes completely from the, its a temple city. And its prestige as a capital and as a name in history really comes from that, for that reason, from its sanctity thats all about religion. Host when did it begin . As a city . Guest well, it began, you know, it began in sort of probably the second millennium before christ. At least. And, um, it started as a probably just as a small mountaintop fortress just with water, a spring and a mountaintop. And, of course, in those days high places were often holy. But and have a fortress, you often built a fortress in a high, holy lace, and it needed to have a spring. And thats all jerusalem had. There was nothing special about it. What made it special and has made it special throughout its history has been the decisions, the whimsical, capricious decisions of a few men. And it was davids decision to use this kind of canaanite shrine, use this fortress to be rather like washington, d. C. A neutral capital between northern and southern tribes. It was that decision. He could have chosen somewhere else, he didnt. He chose this place. And that was the beginning of the special nature, the special sanctity of jerusalem. Host did it ever serve as a neutral capital . Guest never. Theres never it hasnt been neutral ever in its history. Jerusalem has a special power. Its one of those places, i mean, first of all, its one of the unique things about it is that everyone feels they know jerusalem. Everyone feels theres an authentic jerusalem. And everyone feels that their authentic jerusalem needs to be built in jerusalem if it isnt already there. So thats one thing. Everyone feels that jerusalem is their sort of other home city, i think teddy [inaudible] once wrote. But the other strange thing about it its a city, most cities people want to live there. If they conquer it, theyre happy for it to have many different peoples in it, but jerusalem has always sort of infected its conquerors with a wish to own it absolutely, exclusively. Host you write in jerusalem the biography, in jerusalem the truth is often much less important than the myth. Guest thats right. If youre writing history in jerusalem and writing this book, its the most exciting and the hardest thing ive ever done. Its been a sort of nightmarish challenge in a way. But if youre writing about jerusalem, the myths are often more powerful than the facts. As a historian, i want to write about the facts. And in this book regardless of the agendas of all the ethnic groups and all the religions and all the old ticks politics, ive tried to tell the truth, to get as close to the facts as i can even when deeply inconvenient. At the same time, the myths are often the things that have changed history more than the actual facts. So ones always writing a history of both. Oftentimes the facts matter less. For example, the most famous christian road, i suppose youd call it, in jerusalem, the road where christ is supposed to have carried his cross along the row of sorrow, but historians now think it extremely unlikely that thats actually the right route. Host why . Guest yet they think its actually the route to the wrong, to the wrong, um, location of pie lates pilates palace. Its explained in the book, the geography is explained in the book, theres no point in explaining it here. But basically, it may well geographically be the wrong place historically. Does it matter . No, it doesnt matter. Because millions of christians believe this is a holy place, and this is one of the themes of the book, what makes a holy city . A holy city is a place where man can encounter the divine, can meet god. Where divinity is especially intensely present. Thats definitely true in jerusalem. But part of divinity, part of holiness, part of it is a heritage, a pedigree. So one of the features of jerusalem which is most interesting is all these holy places have been made even more holy because somebody else finds them holy too. Or somebody else found them holy before we did. And thats a fascinating thing, you know . So the holiness is redoubled, intensified, trebled, quadrupled. And, you know, theres great, theres a great sort of instinct to use the stories, the holiness, the very stones that have stood in somebody elses victory arch, somebody elses temple, somebody elses palace on the buildings of an earlier conquest, of an earlier religion and to use those things in your own story, in your own new revelation. And thats one of the fascinations of jerusalem. People often say how do do you write about jerusalem, its layer upon layer of history, but it isnt. The history is completely interwoven, and its more like a tapestry. Its impossible to unravel. Host whats another one of the myths of jerusalem . Guest um, gosh, there are so many of the mists, im just trying myths, im just trying to think. Another one is the jewish tomb of simon supposedly one of the early high priests, simon. Simon the good. That almost certainly is, in fact, the tomb of a byzantine woman. You know, thats another one. And for the muslims there are um teen things that are umpteen things that are absolutely mythical. So it goes across all the religions. Host and what are some of the more important holy sites in jerusalem . You mentioned the via dela rosa. Guest yeah. I mean, the key site, the first site, the key site is the temple mount. Thats the center of ate all. Thats it all. Thats where it all happens. Host and what happened guest well, thats the place where solomon built the jewish temple, first temple, and his own palace stood there. Whereafter that was destroyed by the babylonians in 586, a Second Temple was built there. And this temple was then rebuilt by herod the great, and when he rebuilt it, he built the most magnificent temple and the most magnificent city jerusalems ever been. Even todays its not so great. And thats the temple that jesus walked in. So its one were very familiar with. Herod the great, by the way, was one of the most fascinating character in the book. Host why . Guest the biblical henry viii, if you like, and the herod dynasty are the biblical tutors and [inaudible] if you can imagine that. Herod the great, hes also the jewish stalin. The jewish version of josef stalin. Hes a fascinating character. Subtle, brutal dictator, mass murderer. He married ten times, more than henry viii. He killed three of his own children which henry viii never did. Of most interesting thing is he killed the woman he really loved. Herod the great was a mongrel in the sense that he was half jewish and half arab, so he was a perfect mixture. But the jews didnt think he was a real jew, the arabs didnt really think he was a real arab, and in order to win legitimacy, he decided to marry the most beautiful jewish heiress, mary ann, who was one of the dynasty. And she both loved him and hated him. Their relationship was utterly tormented and twisted. They had children together. But when he found her plotting against him in the end, he had her strangled, georgia rotted in public. She was buried in honey, sort of embalmed in honey, and he threw himself into her grave to try and find her again, he loved her so much, he never recovered from her death. So fascinating character, herod the great, but he almost built probably the most successful and beautiful religious building ever built, the temple, the greatest temple. The Second Temple, but in its greatest manifestation. And it only stood for about 70 years before it was destroyed by titus and the romans in 70 a. D. In a terrible confrontation. Host simon sebag be montefiore, whats the islamic hold on jerusalem . Guest well, thats a very important story, too, because when [inaudible] was reciting the quran, he adopted, he respected, he commandeered, he borrowed much of the holiness of the jewish and christian prophets and included them in his. He believed that islam was the real, the final revelation. And these were earlier the jewish and the christian were early revelations that had been, that had lost gods blessing. And, therefore, jerusalem though never mentioned per se in the quran, is most probably referred to as the faraway shrine. And when the, and when he talked about jerusalem, when the early muslims believed and talked about jerusalem, they believed that the final day, the judgment day, was imminent and that could only take place in jerusalem. And, therefore, they wanted to conquer jerusalem especially. And when they did conquer it, they immediately went to the temple mount where the temple had stood and wanted to pray there because it had been the jewish temple l. And, therefore, when they were building their great empire, they built the dome of the rock there in 691. And after the temple was the islamic temple, if you like. And it was quite selfconsciously built in order to overpower the christian holy sites which were there, the church of the holy accept all cur and to coopt jewish history. Its a fascinating building, again, one of the most beautiful and successful imperial and religious buildings ever built in history. Host you write in jerusalem that part of your family motto includes jerusalem. How did that come about . Guest um, an ancestor of mine was called most moses montefiore. Very wealthy financier. He was partners with the roth child family in business. Happened he was also jewish, ands very proud of his judaism. And he went six or seven times to jerusalem in days when you had to go by carriage and ship. You had to go with body guards and guns to defend yourself from bandits. He fell in love with jerusalem. And in 1860 he built the first jewish settlement, if you like, outside the old city walls. It was also virtually the first settlement because soon afterwards the arab achris accuratic family aristocratic family started to build the suburbs around the walls. His was the fist. And its called the montefiore quarter, the montefiore cottages. He built a windmill there which is still there which is very beautiful, victorian wind mill. Though what the hell its doing it looks totally out of place in jerusalem. And its interesting because this place was used as fortress in 1968 by jewish fighters. And two or three times arab irregular fighters tried to storm this jewish suburb and the wind mill. And the british were, of course, backing the arabs in this battle, and they blew the top off. But anyway, he so loved jerusalem that he adopted it as his motto. And i have it on my ring here. So you know, we still were very proud of that connection in month forly. Host whats the british involvement in jerusalem, palestine, etc. Guest british involvement is very similar to the american involvement today in that it originated, a large part of it stems from evangelical belief that jerusalem could, should, will ultimately lead to judgment today, the second judgment day, the Second Coming of christ. So the muscular christians of victorian evangelists in ending bland were very england were very attracted to this. They believed in the Second Coming. And, but also there were huge strategic reasons why britain was involved in the middle east. In 1882 they had taken egypt, for example. In 1878, they had taken cyprus. So they were moving to a forward position in the middle east and, of course, jerusalem was part of that. In 1917, in the first world war, they defeated the ultimate empire, and they took jerusalem. And they had a jewish mandate there. In 1916, key moment, and 1917, the parish empire was in British Empire was in desperation to win the war. America had just joined the war, russia was to therring on the verge of revolution, and it looked like britain might lose the war to germany. So they made promises in the middle east to two or three different groups, to the arabs, to the jews and to the french, their allies. As well as to the russians, incidentally. And in the end they issued the balfort declaration, a controversial decision, one that led to the state of israel. And, but the british, you know, having started this process werent able to finish it properly. They lost the will, they lost the power. The cost in treasure and in blood was too much for them. And faced with sort of jewish resistance, arab resistance, they just basically, the british it is not a proud day for us brits they basically just kind of fled the scene in 1948. They just kind of handed it over to the United Nations and just left a terrible mess. United nations had no teeth, no troops on the ground, and the result was just a huge war where all the kind of arab countries ran about invading and fought for jerusalem. And ultimately, jerusalem was split in 1948 until 967, reunited in 1967 as we all know, and has been ruled by israel ever since. Host you end your book with, jerusalem, in 1967. Why . Guest 67 is really the moment that the present day situation was created. The book does, in fact, go right up to netanyahu and obama and all that. But the last sort of set piece, if you like, is the storming of jerusalem by Israeli Forces in june 67, and its a sort of its a moment that changed history completely. It changed the state of israel and the nature of the state of israel. It changed the character of israel because it was such an exciting moment for jews all over the world, christians all over the world too. It was such an inspiring moment, an exciting moment. And even for secular jews it was an almost messianic moment when it seems like the Little Country of israel had taken jerusalem reunited jerusalem, and jews could again pray at the western wall, the wall the place, as jews call it, where which is all that was left of Herods Temple which we talked about earlier. So its a very kind of vital moment. And everything thats come after, everything we have today in the middle east comes from this moment. So it was a natural and exciting and spectacular place to, for the book to reach its kind of climax. Though, i mean, so much has happened since, and we go into all the details of that right up until, as i said, obama and netanyahu and all the rest. Host one of the little side lights that i saw in your book is that Mary Magdalenes hand is there . Guest well, there are all manner of, of sort of relics in jerusalem. And there are all sorts of bizarre things there. I mean, there are swords and hands and, yes. So theres all sorts of the fascinating relics in the church of the holy she pull yes. And shes just one of those, one of the fascinating women who are buried in jerusalem. Women, in the book women are very important in jerusalem, as you mentioned. The church of the holy sepulchre, that wonderful christian church, that romannesque Crusader Church was built by the Margaret Thatcher of the crusades who is a wonderful character, beautiful woman. Half french, half armenian. And they said, the his torns at historians at the time said she was as intelligent as a hand which is high praise. And she built the church of the holy sepulchre. Its her building. And shes buried her full body is this jerusalem. Her real body is buried in jerusalem too. And, of course, you know, and there was many other wonderful women including my favorite one is azmahan. She was a lebanese princess, an arab pop singer. She was the sort of Britney Spears of the arab world. And she was also an egyptian film star. And she caused havoc having affairs with men and women of of every single possible sect; palestinians, british, french, americans, egyptians, the lot. Shia, sunni. She bestrode all of them. And when she was, when her car mysteriously crashed in the river, in the nile when she was filming one of her movies, her death was sort of like the death of marilyn monroe, it was a great mystery, had she been murdered . The candidates for having killed her were virtually everybody. The american oss, the mi6, the British Secret service, king farooq of egypt, you name it. The gestapo. Anyone might have killed her because she had so many enemy, and shed seduced everybody. So shes definitely one of the heroines of jerusalem. Host who lives in jerusalem now . Whats the population . Guest you know, the well, its now overwhelmingly a jewish city. And its more jewish than its ever been. There are, perhaps, i think there were Something Like 200,000, 300,000 palestinians living there. And there was Something Like 9 or 800,000 depending on the municipalities. So its overwhelmingly now a jewish city, and its more jewish than its ever been, perhaps since the days of herod the great. There are and a beautiful city now. I mean, the old city, you know, has been, you know, the archaeological sites there are astonishing. For example, you know, theyve now dug up, by the western wall you can see the pile of huge rocks that were pushed off the temple mount by titus roman soldiers as they destroyed the temple. And you can see the astonishing palaces of the cay the first arab dynasty to rule jerusalem, who loved jerusalem. And they built these palaces up so high that they could ride their horses across the bridge onto the temple mount from their palaces. And among these palaces theyve been excavated. So whether its jewish or arab muslim or christian history youre interested in, its never been more easy to see the complexity of the city is, you know, is all, is there beautifully presented now. Host how is the temple mount managed . Guest well, tsa a good question. Thats a good question. Its actually run by the arab woks which is a trust, if you like, of the muslim community. And when the israelis took it in 67, the general thats a military hero and minister of defense who organized the victory of 67, the astonishing israeli victory of 67, he went this there, sat down, took his shoes off and sat down with all the leadership. Basically, you control, you will control the temple mount. And thats the way it should be, or in fact. He was actually a very wise character who understood the way business is done in the middle east, by negotiation. And he and thats the way its remained ever since. And i mean, obviously, there are very few extremists who want to sort of, who would like to rebuild a jewish temple on the temple mount. But thats not going to happen. And the buildings, the mosque even for a jewish person like me, even as a historian there are some of the most beautiful buildings on earth. So its quite right that it should be. The management of the temple mount should remain exactly