Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On Cybersecurity And

Come tomorrow night ended thank you everybody. Have a great day. [inaudible conversations] welcome to the National Constitution center. Such a pleasure to see you here. I am the president of this wonderful institution in the National Constitution center the only institution in america chartered by congress to disseminate information about the u. S. Constitution and on a nonpartisan basis. As part of the wonderful mandate, we have three goals with the museum called we the people and will be displaying the bill of rights and in america was down all the one place that summons all of the debates in a loving citizens to make up their own mind it in the last month we had such an exciting variety of town hall programs just last week we had eight debates about whether the president has the constitutional power to target and kill american citizens abroad and initially it was no but after a speech the audience changed its mind to say yes. Will also have a discussion with the constitution is broken and in the spring we will hand out our latest mailer and i am so excited about the programs from Justice John Paul stevens from one of his own appearances to several books about the 50th anniversary here at the constitutional center. Although please look at the redesigned web site Constitution Center. Org we hope you will enjoy them as much. Out of all the topics we discussed there is none that i am more excited about the and privacy that i am more looking forward to or talking with a and julia angwin. We are soldiers in the privacy trenches and there is no reporter in america with her path breaking reports about the tangible harm of online tracking and the details how much it is collected and what is done with it on parallel. With the Pulitzer Prize because the incredible wall street journal for the first time many of us had not known many were charged to differ prices based on the profiles of the algorithms without our knowledge or consent. With some of the other great achievements colonel currently one desperate the journal it was a finalist in 2011 in an explanatory reporting but also the author of stealing my space the battle of control we are so thrilled to have her book dragnet nation. [applause] we have so much to discuss what surprised you most . The queue for having me here i am a huge fan. In my book dragnet nation i decided to take that one step further by investigating myself. What can i protect . As many places i as i could find i had to win trade data brokers but only one does and would let me see my file. But interestingly it was shocking but some companies were completely wrong. One said id never completed college was a single mother but none of those happened to be true. Others were incredibly detailed with every address i had ever lived dash including the number of my dorm room in college which i had forgotten. Every member of my family including fellow bollands fairly recently with the changes but of volpe space about me and all sorts of wrong things i could not figure out which anchor to be more. Host were you surprised homage to googles new from your searches . The Search History was incredibly shocking. Since i eighth joined a genial they stole all my searches when i started to look i realized how revealing they were. Far more revealing than my addresses it was a map of every single day i would google the weather then something with my kids school then lets get one article i was writing then online Kids Clothing you conceive my mind making a leap that really disturbed me i quit using google after that. Host we will talk with the alternatives but there was more that struck me you got the gse records the description of why you were abroad was reported to private companies. This was shocking. I said give me the record of a border crossings but easily means waiting three months but that is relevant. It was his incredibly comprehensive what ive learned to from the wall street journal you can choose the system with the internal communications i have been online form and my boss would approve it just by the virtue no one paying attention their role swept into the government file. With the offense knowledge so they stopped working with a travel agency but it took all that time. With that data age people dont even know. Is secure but they did not know. Host the amount of inaccuracies or the glitch it seems hard to get the sense of control of how much is out there. It was difficult and i sure i dont because most companies dont have to share an even if they do facebook a nbc in archive but one european got a full set of his data and privacy laws but his file he had deleted his friends it actually had a ghost like saying that you thought was gone. I sought a more sanitized version. Host we will talk about the steps and you took to protect your privacy but a question and that we both get people say what tisza harm . Nothing to hide why should i care . Lead of the great many virtues you give us specific examples of people that were harmed in different ways. Host you talk about Edward Snowden the fact the government was collecting of the data and the duration of the calls in intercepting the contents. Why should i care . It is the most common question. Usually people last week. [laughter] you must be a terrorist. It is worth noting in europe there is no need to justify. It be done after have that conversation. How the things that is the biggest armed with government surveillance is indeed us to be less free. I read about this guy who was surveiled by the fbi his friend had written a a sassy post did he basically said i dont know why the gse is so crazy at the airport i could bottle it no problem. That is true but not smart to say but he did a couple weeks later this guy and his friend were shopping in his car had a tracking device they put that on his car to surveil him he later found out because of his friends comments. After they found out the french of fell apart the author did not want to be friends they became incredibly circumspect so not to talk about anything surveillant now use is the different name he is still detained in return becomes across International Border he doesnt feel he had the same speech rights that is part of our country. Host you argue but it was about a security but yet the Supreme Court has not been sympathetic. No. It has not the number of reasons they have taken the path but you cannot prove or show harm. We have an interesting case that people can prove they were surveiled. But one thing that i talk about even more than a speech what big data is to build association. The things that they love those who put pads and other furniture are a better credit risk but we do have the history with the naacp the Supreme Court held that the into joining the young muslim men but he left a digital trail behind. Host in addition spinach will also identify Fourth Amendment concerns you went to former east germany to find out what they knew about their citizens how much less does the stasi no . There were a couple of people theyve measured surveillance according to binders. But ive looked at average files that were 20 or 50 pages long they were not as robust as a typical profile the timeline dates back not to say they were not oppressively of them want to be cautious but were not as good as repression. [laughter] host you tell the story where the government is caught with the surveillance in team may not have been the cause. Most likely a to defend that and is a Surveillance Program Harrison Snowden revelation he wanted to blow up the subway in new york city ian they did identify him he had written in email to a known terrorist but the saying is to monitor communications to known terrorist to monitor the communications that was the tip but literally a chasing him across the country going from denver to new york. It was incredibly old school in the Supreme Court later said you cannot put the gps on the bottom of a car to track 24 7 over one months. What about the future of the Fourth Amendment issues . Whether or not they put it gps device going from at t and verizon some say you need a warrant stemming a problem with the Fourth Amendment is they are a the best tracking device. The above their target. The problem with the Fourth Amendment the way the court interpreted is very much the boundaries of your actual home. So the interpretation has been if you did your information into somebodys outside the home as a third party you have a lesser expectation of privacy. So low that allows the government to have less of a Legal Standard. Justice settle your suggested maybe it is a world where we store all papers in thirdparty Service Servers but that has not opened shop in opened up. Host what is the best alternative . In the justice says we have a problem with the Supreme Court say if that was in a database with note exhortation to privacy that means none of us have privacy she did not say what the court should do as an alternative. I dont know if i know the answer but all companies from at t to googles and facebook are lobbying to get the law changed. They want the search warrant to be the standard of the location record demand email this sensitive for the Third Party Doctrine is easier for the government. Host so congress could pass a bill to say you need a board and that would help. Yes. Host i will just throw this out there but i love the First Amendment argument so much. What would brandeis to . And i think he would have insisted the framers believed it was necessary for full democratic participation to defeat that expectation with the unreasonable search. What it to you think of that . I think brandeis would agree. There was an argument recently maybe theyre right to bear counter surveillance [laughter] because i have orange myself with counter surveillance that puts me on a suspicious list actually but it may well be there is a level of anonymity the did for political discourse from one that prevents all signals from getting through. That is of modest private excess three for the spring. It is the bag lying to with something thatll that prevents anything to get in and out so when my phone is in the baggage is not within the sulfone tower is off the grid and it saves me having to constantly think so i throw it in the bag. You could turn your phone off but the head chief technical officer we can track you even when your phone is off that means remote the activating the microphone or some other part. That is what protesters do because the cops want to know it is commonly used by other people. Host just because you are paranoid. [laughter] it is far more stylish alternative then wrapping your telephone in tinfoil. [laughter] with. I was going to get a bag he said you dont need that just wrap your phone in tinfoil. [laughter] it was really embarrassing. The id end of the day it looks like the crinkly sandwich is a you have to stop doing this because you look crazy. The you can get the bags on amazon. [laughter] with counter surveillance in the Constitution Center to sell them together. That is a great idea. I am curious. To in the audience would buy one of these bags . Who thinks this is just too much . It is almost twothirds it is already a committed audience. [laughter] but i think we have more work to do about what downhearted is the great effort to but you really give the stock form of government surveillance of private sector surveillance and the great contribution of the wall street Journal Articles to charge those different prices on who the Companies Think they are with that differential pricing. The computer transmits far more information than you would think. But with the retailer website they already have information about year they could change the page to tailor its exactly to you it is marketed to us. Is amazon tells you what books you want and just like the nsa stasi. [laughter] but with the investigations how is this used to provide different prices . We found space one was using the permission to use the credit card offered if they had never seen you before here is a card to analyze the traffic and would say that instant analysis. The matter how much education they thought that you had and you could apply for and a car that you want but then in 2012 we found staples was changing prices for everybody and it was not optional. To make an instant assessment how likely it you were to use the competitors store if you were close enough to give you a better price if not it was a higher price. So you could buy a stapler stapler, the exact one from two different locations from two different prices and shipped to the syndication this will be more possible. But i am concerned about what does that mean . Of course, it is perfectly a competitive and legal but it is also true nationwide those who went to the competitors are lower in coming and racial minorities living farther away from the store so they get the higher prices so i am trying to rethink the red line what do we considered fair . The ability will increase technologically where do i want to draw the of wind based on the individual lead attributes . Cemetery literal classification that nielsen thought you were the hightech spender than the others many of whom are minorities because nielsen think that they are spending a kettle think this society could answer the question which you have technical definitions having to do with loan applications and racial minorities. We could think a little bigger where to draw the line but with the Digital World it seems to concede anything in the whole world but you could be tracked into the hall of mirrors the uc is what they thank you are or the price that you should have. Host you give the example of the people in the last election visiting mitt romney web site only getting what the ads or obama ads from his website literally of cookie was placed in your computer auctioned off a realtime to wait Company Veterans the right to sell you the ads for ever in and the results is a filter bubble where the ads that you see or the news that you consumed with the entire reality is to find by whose a websites think they are. With the last election in incredible example if you went to google to type in obama. Then in the middle that was obama plus. When we get this same for romney. I tested this across the country and what did is happening if we at the wall street journal said ray notice that you read obama on the frontpage so now you have the obama views of tuesdays. What is the ideal . Jesse algorithm. That bites be true but is that fair for googles to make that assumption for us . Host is it consistent with the average credit values can you live in a society where we only hear one side . That is what i say the key issue was fairness. It does let make you feel you live in a fair society. The news is not presented fairly so we need to figure out ways we can keep the technology that i love. Taiwans all of it can to block on rinaldi to get my files but i want to mitigate the unfairness that is illegal in and ubiquitous. Virtual Police Lineups what will happen there . I talk about the idea before the surveillance was ubiquitous there is no reason a normal person would have a file anywhere. But now local groups have these computers that skean all the license plates a and keep them in a file forever. That means they have a history of your location where you have been parked also taking pictures where you were driving oncoming traffic behind we found one guy in california he filed the freedom of information act request his town had photographed him more than 200 times including getting in and out of his car in his driveway and the Police Department keeps it forever. This changes the presumption of innocence which is no longer to be a suspect ambase surveil the and the challenges the police could go fishing did the kids get out of the car in the driveway . Who knows . And now they have something on everybody. Host and one was stopped because he did not make this signal but the Supreme Court said even if it is a pretext to let you say with all data we are vulnerable. Guy tell the story he is of boiler repair man in massachusetts and basically one day heard that his drivers license was suspended. He went to the hearing that we have facial recognition and it found your photo looks similar to another that rethink his identity theft. Prove who you are. So he had to prove his innocence. They flag to the wrong people and accused him you dont look like your photo. That was 13 years ago i am 100 pounds heavier now. [laughter] so that is what happens is this world where the algorithms are not checked. I still want to process he has the right to we informed to far earlier. Host due process is a theme of the book but in order to dramatize privacies spend what youre doing a privacy audit on yourself to come up with a model to with this every Available Technology to protect your privacy we have seen the bag limits taco of the other rigors. You left cruel and went to weld web site called dr. Ago . Train wreck i saw how they were so revealing i didnt want them stored even with not g meryl they are still storing them based on your it address but if you go to a website to look it address at space me in my home so it is revealing so i decided to switch to a surge in june called dr. Ago that is privacy protecting they dont store searches or it address so it is like a fresh new experience. It took me awhile and to use and i am used to that google finishes by sentences. But once i realized it was not that hard to add the word in new york then i started to appreciate the fact my searches were not tailored i had control and was looking for civic you have many useful tips about creating passwords i thought i would never remember them. I have the obvious one with the exclamation point. [laughter] what is the take away . Passwords are a terrible situation right now. So why use a password manager there is software that generates is impossible for anyone to come up with all of them themselves and i hired my daughter for a special technique she