Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the National Constitution center. Such a pleasure to are you here. And Jeffrey Rosen car president of this wonderful institution. The National Constitution center is the only institution in america chartered by congress to disseminate information about the u. S. Constitution on a nonpartisan basis and is part of the wonderful mandate, we have three goals for we the people in a rare copy of the bill of rights. We are center for Civic Education that we are americans townhall, the one place that i meant outside the constitutional debates different in American Society and allow citizens to make up their own mind. In the past weeks in coming months weve had such a remarkable exciting variety of townhall programs. Just like week we had a debate between [inaudible] about whether the constitution has power to kill its citizens abroad. About the socially now but after browsing speak, the audience changed its mind ts. Tomorrow, jeff toobin from the new yorker is going to come for a great discussion of whether constitution is broken. In the spring, we had better leaders springvale. Im so excited about the dizzying array for making one of its era. As to mancini on James Madison to several books about the anniversary at and here in the Constitutional Center every day of the week we are so proud to share with you. Please look at our redesigned website, Constitution Center. Org as well as her weekly podcast and we hope you enjoyed them much as presented presenting them. Of all the topics im privileged to discuss at the Great National car duchenne center, there is none im more excited about the private the and more that im looking forward to meeting in person. Data julia angwin. Where fellow soldiers in the trenches for many years. We both written about privacy and theres no reporter in america for whom i know more than julia. Your pathbreaking port about the tangible harms of online tracking and especially the details about how much precisely is being collected and what is being done with it. Yuri seidel as for the Pulitzer Prize twice about because of your incredible wall street journal series on the subject, which reveals for the first time something many of us had no, which is people are actually charge different prices online based on the profile basic algorithms without our knowledge. Some of the other many great achievement, she is currently at your boss at the wonderful independent news organization. Report of the wall street journal from 2000 to 2013 and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 2011. She was on a team of reporters the one the pulitzer in 2003 in explanatory reporting for corruption. Also the oster stealing my space, the battle to control the most popular website in america. Im so thrilled to discuss her new book, dragnet nation a quest for privacy, security, and freedom in a world of relentless surveillance. Welcome, julia angwin. [applause] thank you tiered with so much to discuss. I went to sever the question. What surprised you most about how much countries in the government know you but you . Guest thank you for having me here. Im a huge fan. In my book, dragnet nation, decided to take the privacy and best edition by investigating myself. What is known about and what can i protect . So i got my data from as many places as i could find, which is actually very few places. For instance, in identifying 200 data breakers but only it doesnt let me see files because theres no law requiring them to pay even a small set of files, it was shocking how wrong some of them are and how right some of them were. Some companies were completely wrong. When companies had a never completed college, was a single mother and had Poverty Level income. None of those happen to be true. Other files are incredibly detailed and had every address ive ever lived at going back to the number in the tournament college, which i had actually forgotten. Every member of my family perfectly associated to me and all sorts of purchases imai, including once i made fairly recently. So on the whole, they knew a lot about me. Occasionally they do all sorts of wrong things about me. I couldnt decide which one not reach me more. The depth and precision of your researches the price mean and freaked me out a little bit. Google Search History was incredibly shocking to me. Since i joined gmail in 2006, and theyve been storing all of ms. Urges. Thats a long time. When i started to look at my searches, i realized how revealing they were. They were far more revealing than addresses because theres a map of every single day i wake up in the morning and google the weather and then something about something with my kids school. Then i would look of a article was researching. Then i would start relay shopping for kids clothing. You could just be my mind making as little leaps. There was a record of the mental madness. You relate to search me and i quit using Google Search after that. Will talk about the alternatives and how you cope with them. There was more that struck me. You got your tsa records and found the description of why you are going abroad for a reporting trip was actually reported to private companies and turned over to the government. This was shocking. It went to the customs of border control. One of the few sets of files you can obtain fairly easily it easily means waiting three months and writing letters. So it was incredibly good. What i learned from it, the wall street journal where i was working used to travel agents become which use the system that basically automatically sent some of the internal communications i have with my boss. I had to fill out an online form about my atmosphere traveling comic veteran. That is, travel would get approved. By the virtue of no ones paying attention, all as can indications were into government files. When i got this, they understandably flips out because they have knowledge of where reporters are going about this story. They actually stopped working with Us Travel Agency for a period of time until they got it fixed. This is one of the data age we live in right now. If i asked the wall street journal, then save the cure, right here. They didnt know. The amount of inaccuracies, which is, it would seem hard to get a sense of control and handle on just how much. It is difficult to get a handle on it and im sure i dont have a handle on it. Ive probably seen a very thin layer at the top about the known about me. If they do share, for instance, facebook give me an archive of what they have on me. We know from a european who obtain a fuller set of his data under privacy laws that what i saw was less than what they have because his file, it had everyone who had deleted his friends. It actually kind of cat the things he thought were gone. The one i saw were sanitized version. Okay, we are going to discuss in a little bit the steps he took to protect your privacy. I want to talk through with you a question that every speak about privacy. People say what is the harm . Nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Why should i care . The great virtue of this book is that you enumerate those times with great specificity and give a specific examples of people who were harmed in different ways. Lets start with government surveillance. You talk a lot about edwards noted in the Pleasant Program and the metadata and the telephone numbers as well as intercepting the content of the conversations. I am not a terrorist, why should i care . Usually i get it. It was a pleasure to ask the question. I must be a terrorist or something. Thats right, exactly. Its interesting first of all we even have the conversation because it is worth noting that privacy is considered a human right in the thick event. You dont have to have this conversation. Putting that aside, they want to debate the cause, so lets debate it. The biggest time from government surveillance actually is a need for us to be less free with our speech. So i read about this guy in my book who was surveilled at the fbi. He and his friend, they are both teenage young men and santa clara and his friend has this sassy post on his social network and he basically said i dont know why the tsa is so crazy and airport. I could just go to a mall and bomb it no problem, which is actually true, but may be unwise to say, but he said it. A couple weeks later, this guy and his friend were at the car shop getting an oil change and the author, theres something under his car, tracking device. The fbi had put this on his car to surveilled head and later found out it was because of his friends comment. So this is already a disturbing story. But as some disturbing is that happen afterwards. After they found out they were surveilled by the fbi, the friendship fell apart. The youngster didnt want to be friends with the guy who might put them in danger. He became incredibly circumspect in his actions and didnt feel free to talk about anything subversive. He is Muslim American and he now uses a different name, aladdin, because its less knobs on. He studied teen every time he comes across national borders. He doesnt feel that he has the same free speech rights that is a central part of our country. You argue so powerfully in a chapter that its not just privacy, that free speech and a quarter was enough practical obscurity to engage in political dissent and as you say, Supreme Court has not been sympathetic to claims that violates free speech. Now come the Supreme Court has not. Theres a number reasons why weve taken up half. Largely over the issue of standing, which is you cant prove your surveilled and cant show any harm. We have an interesting case coming out, which is now after snowden, people can prove they were surveilled. One day when i talked about in that chapter, i call it freedom of association, even whether speech is concerned about association because he was afraid to associate with his friend anymore. Opaque data is is way to build associations. People say that they may love about it is the people who buy file paths to put under their furniture figure credit risks. It was too small and so it builds associations. But we do have a history of protecting freedom of association. The naacp versus alabama were alabama wanted to list members and the Supreme Court upheld the right to keep that list private. The thing is those lists are no longer private because you dont have to join the young muslim men anymore. He was automatically entered into that by the digital trail he left behind. In addition to the great First Amendment concerns, you also identify Fourth Amendment concerns in europe to former east germany and found out what the saudi new about its status and, how much more or less this sassy know then google knows about you . Well, there were a couple of people who had dozens of binders. So some people had like 30 binders, 50 binders. The average file, which were 20 to 50 pages long, handwritten and baylor not as robust as web is a typical facebook profile event. Nowadays they do quite a bit of someone. Also to say they didnt know how to be repressive. Viewers want to be cautious with this, which is we are better surveillance, but not as good as refreshing. But to make sure we keep it that way. Does that work . You tell the story of zazi, who was one of the people the government has offered as an example of caught through this prison surveillance. And yet its not clear the surveillance is up with the cause and he might not have been caught without it. Yes, the zazi case is the one the government uses most often to defend the nsa surveillance programs ever since the snowden revelation. Its obvious the guy who wanted to blow up the subways in new york city. They did identify him because he had written an email to somebody overseas and they did cut back through the prison program. The thing is you dont need the Bulk Surveillance Program to monitor communications to known terrorist. We have a process called monitor communications of terrorists. But basically they caught him by literally chasing him across the country and cars. He was driving denver to new york and they had a team of agents trailing him. It was incredibly oldschool. Now, the gps device that yasser was followed by was a surge the Supreme Court struck down and said youre not a lets put a gps device on the bottom of the car to track peoples movements 24 7 for a month. What about the future of Fourth Amendment issues . You talk about fascinating elfin tracking issues. His current me out then and they could no longer put a gps device on the bottom of my car. They can subpoena the geolocation information stored by at t and verizon or whatever it is and some folks in Congress Needed a warrant warrant for that . The government is pushing that . What will the courts to . The problem we have with these devices as they are the best tracking device ever devised. And a spy would love their target to carry such a thing. The problem is the fourth banana, the way the court has interpreted it has been very much about the boundaries of your actual home. So the papers in your home, the interpretation has been if you give your information to somebody outside the home, such as the phone company or bank, you have a lesser expectation of privacy in those records. So that allows the government to get yourself on record with less of a Legal Standard. That is known as the Third Party Doctrine. In the jones case the reference, justice sao tome are suggested it might be time to reconsider that in a world where we basically store all of our papers, but that hasnt yet been opened up by a quarter. Is a question im only asking because i dont have the answer in a major city and it. What is the best alternative . In other words, we have a problem. Over the Supreme Court is that if i take data is stored in a database held by third parties, have no expectation of privacy. That means some of us have any privacy. She didnt say what the court would do as an alternative. I am not that i know the answer, but i think its worth asking that all the tests companies from at t to google to facebook are lobbying to get that particular part of the law changed. They want the search warrant should be the standard for supplementation record, email, sent a data that currently because of the Third Party Doctrine is easier for the government to get. As you say, congress could pass a bill saying you need a warrant to get access to the provision . Yes, it would. Im just going to throw it out there so maybe you can push it as well. I loved your First Amendment argument so much. Never have a hard privacy question i ask what would brandes do because hes my privacy hero. I think he wouldve insisted the framers of the degree of practical obscurity and anonymity and forms of ubiquitous tracking that defeat the expectation are unreasonable searches of our persons and electronic effects. What do you think of that . Guest i heard an argument that i thought was interesting, which is mainly the Second Amendment should protect us. The right to bear countersurveillance. I thought it is actually a great idea. Ive kind of armed myself with countersurveillance. That puts me on a suspicious list actually. But it may well be a level of anonymity needed for political discourse that would be allowed by the fact they had my phone to prevent all signals to getting through. This is the hottest accessory. Advocacy this is basically some thin metal in the model prevents signals getting in. So when my son is in the back, its not communicating within a network. Its really off the grid. It saves me from having to cons to me they okay, how they got my location setting nonor whatever . Is worth pointing out that you could turn your phone off to do this, but the cia, chief technical officer went public a year ago saying you know we contract you even when your phone is off, which basically probably means remotely activating the microphone or some other part of it. True privacy paranoia and this is something that protesters do because the cops went to note is that the protests and so effectually commonly used by occupying other people. This is the time to use the woody allen line. Just because youre paranoid, doesnt mean youre out to get you. A more stylish alternative to your original approach. [laughter] i was talking to this guy who is an excia then. He was that you dont need this. Wrap your phone in tinfoil. I said okay, try a precise than a day wrapping my phone in tinfoil and it was really embarrassing. Its an appealing about them, try not to tear it. By the end of the day it looks like a very crinkly sandwich, special. My colleague said to me, julio, i know someone who can get you a bag you do have to start doing this because you look crazy. You can get them on amazon. The sun i got from a guy who does countersurveillance are in new york. We could set up a little operation of the Constitutional Center and saw them together. A little franchise. Thats a great idea. Now, obviously im king of curious. Based on our conversation, who had the idea would die one . Who thinks this is just too much and would not buy a . Said this is actually almost two thirds. It is a hard humanity committed Constitution Center today. So again, the great virtue of this book, stories, practical tips about how to protect privacy, but we talked about the harms of government surveillance. Let us talk about the harms of privatesector surveillance and being tracked by online companies. I mention the great contribution of your wall street Journal Articles was to reveal that people may be charged different prices online based on who the Companies Think they are. Tell us about that example is differential pricing. Whats happening now when you were online is your computer turned misinformation about you than you think. You imagine yourself being anonymous. When you arriv