Bit of a problem when you limit Human Emotions and possibilities in a certain kind of way. Perhaps that is the power of the it allows us to comment. The software of facebook itself forces you to be positive and share something that deserves a thumbsup or like. Abcawun as a College Professor at pepperdine is technology interfering with teaching . Guest every teacher wrestles with what to do with technology. And so you are constantly competing for their attention even in an exam type of situation the possibility of students accessing information via their cell phone then temptation to cheat is ever present. I teach media and yet i allow no media in the classroom no laptops cell phones. They. They must be fully present to the discussion and each other. I might use media on the screen, have a laptop bringing a powerpoint and slides, but i do not want them fragmenting themselves. When it comes time for exams, exams they are allowed all media access possible. Host y . Guest they will never be a time in the workplace when they are cut off from those resources. So it would not be a real test. They have access. How can you sort through too many options in a limited timeframe is the challenge of the workplace now. How do you see through things, read carefully analyze, make wise decisions given to many options. Host you close igods with the question, is technology enslaving us. What is the answer . Guest we we will come to see technology as something every day. We will come to see it like a fork, spoon, para classes. At this at this time it is so captivating, magical that we give ourselves to it a little too boldly. And my book igods is an effort to push pause long enough to think and gain perspective distance, make sure those tools designed to serve us are not enslaving us. Host kind of a warning shot. Guest i i think it is a deep appreciation for the people who created these technologies. I appreciate how how they helped us to manage abundance but it is a chance to say be careful that you dont place to too much faith in technology and described too much magic. Thursday night do book tv. The cspan cities tour takes you on the road. This weekend we partnered with Time Warner Cable for a visit to austin, texas. We are in the private suite of lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson a private quarters. This is not part of a tour offered to the public. This has never been opened to the public, and you are seeing it because of special access for cspan. The. The ips come into the space, but it is now open to visitors on a daily basis. The remarkable thing about this space is it is living, breathing artifact. It has not changed at all since pres. Johnsons death, and there is a document in the corner of this room telling my predecessors, myself, and my successors that nothing in this room can change. Here at the 100 block of congress avenue in austin. To austin. To my left down the block is the colorado river. This is an important Historic Site because this is where waterloo, austins predecessor was which consisted of a cluster of cabins. I am standing at about the spot where the cabin was. He and the men got wind of a big buffalo herd. They jumped on their horses. Congress avenue in those days was just a muddy ravine they galloped on their horses grabbed pistols and rode into the midst of buffaloes firing and shouting. He shot an enormous buffalo and went to the top of the help where the capitals and told everyone that this should be the seat of the future empire. Watch all our events from austin saturday at noon eastern on t1 book tv. In january the new congress will see the largest gop majority. Julia angwin is next on book tv. She argues due to the pervasiveness of the dragnet system we are in danger of becoming a society a society that censors itself instead of demanding rights. This is just under an hour. The National Constitution center is the only institution in america chartered by congress to disseminate information about the u. S. Constitution on a nonpartisan basis. We have three goals the museum of we the people a a center for Civic Education and americas townhall. Riveting American Society and allowing citizens to make up there own minds. We we have had such a remarkable and exciting variety. Just last week we had a debate about whether the president has the constitutional power to target and kill american citizens abroad. After a rousing speech the audience changed their mind. Tomorrow we we will have a great discussion on whether our constitution is broken. In in the spring we will hand out our latest mailer. I am excited about this dizzying array of programs. Several books about the 50th anniversary of the civil rights act. It is constitutional heaven every day of the week, and week, and we are so proud to share it with you. Please do look at our newly redesigned website as well as our weekly podcast. We hope you we will enjoy it my friends ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, out of all the topics i am privileged to discuss , there is none i am more excited about than privacy, and no author i have been more looking forward to meeting in person and talking with them julia angwin. We are fellow soldiers in the privacy trenches. There there is no reporter in america from whom i have learned more. Your reports in the wall street journal and elsewhere about the tangible harms of online tracking and especially the details about how much is being collected and what is being done with it is unparalleled. A a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 2012 revealed something many of us are not known. People are charged different prices online based upon the profiles that facebook out rhythms create about without our knowledge or consent. Some of her other many great achievements currently a journalist a reporter at the wall street journal and a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in 2011 on a team of reporters that won the pulitzer in 2003 also an author. So thrilled to have her here to discuss her latest book dragnet nation a quest for privacy, security, and freedom in a world of relentless surveillance. Welcome. [applauding] thank you. We have so much to discuss. What surprised you most about how much companies and the government to know about you . Thank you for having me here. In my book i decided to take the privacy investigations a step further by investigating myself what is known about me and what i can protect. I sought my data from as many places i could find. I identified 200 data sources, but only, but only a dozen would let me see my file. Interestingly even in that small set it was shocking how long some of them were and how right some of the more. Some companies were completely wrong. One said i had never completed college, was a single mother and Poverty Level income. None of those things happen to be true. Others were incredibly detailed. Every member of my family perfectly associated to me and purchases i had made. On the whole they knew a lot. Occasionally they knew long things about me, and i cannot decide which outraged me more. Were you surprised how much google new . The Google Search history was incredibly shocking. They have been storing all of my searches and that is a long time. I realize how revealing they were a map of everyday. The weather, something weather, something about my kids school, what article i was researching, start shopping for clothing. You can you can see my mind making leaps. The idea that there is a record of the mental madness disturbed me and i quit using google after that. We will talk about the alternatives, but there was more that struck me. You got your tsa records and found that the description of why you were going abroad for a reporting trip was reported to private companies and turned over to the government. This was shocking. One of the few sets of files that you can obtain from the government fairly easily, waiting three months and writing letters. [laughter] so it was incredibly comprehensive. What i learned from it was the wall street journal used a travel agency which used a system that automatically sent internal communications i had with my boss. And just by the virtue of no one paying attention, all attention all those communications were swept into a government file. When i brought this to the wall street journal they understandably flipped out. So they actually stopped working with that travel agency until they got it fixed which took quite a bit of time. This is one of the problems of this data age. They did not know. The amount of inaccuracies, glitches it would seem hard to get a handle on how much is out there. It was very difficult, and im sure i do not. I have probably seen a thin layer. Most companies do not have to share. Facebook let me download an archive of what they have on me, but we no from the european who obtained a full a full set that what i saw was less than what they had. His file had everyone who he had lead as friends posts. It kept this ghostly record of things that he thought were gone. What. What i saw was a more sanitized version. We will discuss the steps you took to protect your privacy. I want to to talk through the question that both of us get all the time. What is the harm . You talk a lot about edwards note in the fact that the government was collecting metadata as well as intercepting content of conversations. I am not a terrorist. Why should i care . Usually i get it. It it was a pleasure to be able to ask it. [laughter] you must be a terrorist. Exactly. Interesting that we even have the conversation. In in europe there is no need to justify privacy because it is a human right. We will debate it. The thing that i think is the biggest harm from government surveillance is it leads us to be less free with our speech. I read i read about this guy who was surveilled by the fbi. He and his friends are both teenaged young men in santa clara, and his friend had written a post on a social network basically saying i dont no why the tsa is so crazy. I can go to mall and vomit no problem, which is actually true. A couple weeks later this guy and his friend were at an auto shop and found a tracking a tracking device in his car. The fbi had put this on his car. He later found out it was because of the comment. What i found disturbing was what happened afterward. Their fell apart. He did he did not want to be friends with someone who might put him in danger. Danger. He does not feel free to talk about anything subversive a Muslim American and now uses a different name and still is detained every time he crosses an International Border and does not feel like he has the same freespeech right. You argue so powerfully it is not just privacy but free speech and the core of what the framers were concerned about. As you say the Supreme Court has not been sympathetic. No, they have not. There are a a number of reasons why they had taken that path. Largely largely it is over the issue that you cannot prove you are surveilled until they cannot show any harm. An interesting case is coming up. After snowdon people can prove that they were surveilled. It will be interesting to see. One thing i talk about freedom of association. Afraid to associate with his friend. People who collect big data say the thing they love is you suddenly realize people who buy pads to put under the furniture are better credit risks. Risks. We have a history of protecting freedom of association. The Supreme Court upheld the right to keep the naacp list private. The thing is those are no longer private. In addition you identify Fourth Amendment concerns and actually went to the former east germany and found out what the styles he knew about its citizens. How much more less . Well there were a couple a couple of people on whom they had dozens of binders they they measured surveillance and binders. But average files were 20 to 50 pages, handwritten not as robust as a typical facebook profile. Nowadays the timeline dates back several years. They years. They did not no how to be repressive. I always want to be cautious with this. We are better better at surveillance but not as good as repression. Does it work . You tell the story of one of the people who the government has offered as an example of someone caught through surveillance, and yet it is not clear that the surveillance itself was the cause. The one the government uses most often to defend the ms a bulk surveillance ever since the snowdon revelation, a guy who wanted to blow up subways. And they identified him because he had written an email to someone overseas who was a known terrorist. They caught that through the Prism Program to read you dont use of both Surveillance Program to monitor communication of known terrorists. Basically they caught him by literally chasing him across the country and cars. They had a team of agents trailing him. It was incredibly oldschool the gps device was a form of search that the Supreme Court later struck down. What about the future of Fourth Amendment issues . You say it is currently open whether or not the government is allowed. They can subpoena the geolocation geo locational information stored by at t. Some folks say you need a a warrant. The problem we have with the Fourth Amendment and these devices is that they are the best tracking device ever devised. Any spy would love there target to carry such a thing. The the First Amendment, the way the court has interpreted it has been very much about the boundaries of your actual home. The interpretation has been that if you give your information to someone outside the home such as the phone company or a bank you have a lesser expectation of privacy. That allows the government to get yourself on records with less of the legal standard. That is known as the thirdparty doctrine. In the case you referenced Justice Sotomayor were suggested it might be time to reconsider that. That has not yet been opened up by the court. I dont know the answer and im interested. What is the best alternative . We have a problem. If i take data and store it in a database i have no expectation of privacy. That means none of us have privacy. Did not say what they could do as an alternative. It is worth pointing out all of the Tech Companies are lobbying to get that particular part of the law changed. They want the search warrant to be the standard for location records emails Sensitive Data that currently is easy to get. As you say, congress could pass a bill saying the unido warrant. Yes. I will throw this out there. I i love your First Amendment argument so much. Ww bd what would brandeis do. I think he would have insisted that the framers believed a degree of practical obscurity and anonymity was necessary for full democratic participation and forms of ubiquitous tracking the defeat that are unreasonable searches of up person. I think certainly brandeis would agree with that. I heard an argument recently that said maybe the Second Amendment should protect us the right to bear counter surveillance. I have armed myself with counter surveillance and that puts me on a suspicious list actually. It may well be there is a level of anonymity needed for political discourse. The fact that i have my phone in a bag that prevents signals from getting through. The hottest privacy accessory. It prevents signals from getting in and out. It is not communicating with a cell tower. It saves me from having to constantly think, think, do i have my location setting on or whatever. It is worth pointing out that you can turn your phone off, but the head of the cia chief technical officer went public one year ago saying we can track you even when your phone is off which probably means remotely activating the microphone or some other part. True privacy paranoids put their phones in bags and this is something protesters do. Cops want to no who is at the protests. It is commonly commonly used by occupy and other people. Just because youre paranoid. Far more stylish alternative i was going to get a faraday bag. Wrap your phone in tinfoil. Okay. I will try it. Hes a stoner conversations so far who in the audience would went by. All right, wow. So this is actually a hearty and already committed audience at the Constitution Center today but i think we have a little more work to do to persuade the people about what the harms are so again the great virtue of this book. There are stories and practical tips about how to protect their privacy but you give us the harms and we talked about the harms of government surveillance. Let us talk about privatesector surveillance of being tracked by on Line Companies and i mentioned the great contribution of your wall street Journal Articles was to reveal that people may be charged different prices on line based on who the Companies Think they are. Tell us about that example of differential pricing. What is happening now when you are on line is your computer has information about you. Imagine yourself being very anonymous but when you arrive at a web site and a retailer web site or someone is trying to Say Something they have quite a bit of information about you and they can dynamically change the page to tailor to you. This is marketed to personalization. Sometimes it is when amazon tells you what books you might want although they only books they tell you our nsa i already have them all. But what i wanted to find out at the journal in my investigations was how is this thing is to provide different prices because that is what i think is ultimately what i would want to to do as a retailer so we did find in 2010 the capital one was using this information to change the credit card offer. When he went to their web site they had never seen you before and its like boom heres a card for you. It was kind of disturbing because it analyze the traffic your web site sent back and forth to them and is set in the traffic there and send analysis like low income or middle income and how much education i thought you had. Now lets be fair you can apply for any credit card you want. Your choices are being fully limited. Its just being scoped as t