Well, thank you very much, matt, for speaking us today. Please join me in thanking him. [applause] we now invite you to join us. Copies of the book will be available for sale and signing. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] booktv is on facebook. Like us to interac interact with booktv just and yours. Watch videos and get uptodate information on events. Facebook. Com booktv. Booktv sat down with Martha Johnson to discuss her experiences as administrator of the General Services administration in the aftermath of her leaving the Obama Administration in the wake of the gsas las vegas conference scandal. This is about half an hour. Joining us now on the booktv on cspan2 is Martha Johnson. Martha johnson, in the past what are you done for a living . I have done a lot of different things. About twothirds of my great has been in the corporate world. Ive been in business large and small, automotive, architecture, consulting. And about a third of my great has been in the public sector, a Public Service side. I worked all the years for president clinton in that administration and ive a couple years serving president obama. So its been a little bit of everything and it has given me i think and real understanding of the large and small organizations and their cultures and their effectiveness and performance. What was your last job at the federal government . Was asked the ministry of the General Services administration, which is a massive Infrastructure Organization about 90 billion, and in scope and size, and we handled real estate, i. T. Travels, charge cards, supplies for the government across the whole government, executive, judiciary, legislative branches as well as date, local relief work, tribal. So it is the epicenter of a lot of government performances and that was my job. It was the best job in the world spent its kind of the back office of those . It is. We serve the government and our goal was to help government to perform better. We were enabling that in a number of different ways. When did you leave . I left two years ago when i resigned. I resigned in the face of an Inspector General report that was about a conference in las vegas, which is what everyone remember, it is a conference that had some various indiscretions and some poorly executed contracts, excessive travel. And it became a flashpoint and i think it was quite a political flashpoint. In the wake of the report i resigned. It was an electionyear . It was very much at the beginning of an election year, and one of the major candidates was a major businessman. So this storyline at the time was to be sure that the president really understood how to run the government, and i was mentioned one of the largest organizations around government performances. When you say you resigned, do you mean you resigned . I lost the support of the white house and i chose to resign. There was a number of meeting you had with the white house in which they were trying to understand what had happened, what the scale and scope of it was. And as we continue to have those discussions, i got to the point where it was obvious that the white house had withdrawn its support. You know, you dont have to be a Rocket Scientist to know when your boss has moved on his support. You pretty much figure it out. I opted to resign. Your new book that we want to show on the air, on my watch leadership, innovation, and personal resilience. You kind of detail that last day in office at the gsa. What was that last day like for you . The last day was personally a very sad day. I was in mourning for most of the day but i couldnt show that because my resignation was very sudden any afternoon. I was concluding things and signing some letters and orders, but when i resigned in front of the senior staff it came very suddenly and i simply said to them that i had chosen to resign and i sent a letter to the president , and i left the route to i turned the meeting over to my chief of staff and it went downstairs and got in my car and drove home. By the time i got home my email was about blowing up with all sorts of people extending themselves to me and just a wonderful way. It was quite a day of both loss and a sudden network of support. It was a story i wanted to tell about how in the buzz saw of washington politics theres a human story behind that. And a teacher of the story, career star, a personal story of Lessons Learned and the resilience. What would you have done differently with regard to the gsa conference . First of all, did you know anything about it . Did you know it was happening . It was planned for at least a year before actually came into office. So it was, so that was one piece of the data. We knew of it because my deputy had requested an investigation of the because she had heard a story, somebody saying something about the conference as she but we need to kind of find out more. And that investigation went for 15 months. We were aware of that because we requested the investigation and we are waiting for it to come forward so that we could decide how to respond. I think thats a little bit of the dilemma, the due process of an investigation. You need to wait until its done. You dont act precipitously. So those kinds of due process and issues that find me when it came out, i knew pieces of it and in something about it but the formal report was still about a month before i resigned. Did you in that month do anything with that report speaks oh, yes. Oh, yes. We were running through, first our own review of the materials. Inspector general can come in and say bunch of things and its important for us to validate and understand those things, and so i had a war room set up and we had gone about instigating some discipline action around some of the people that have been involved, but the government is about due process and these things dont happen like that. Is part of what i think happened, the storm clouds of politics were insisting on a more action and calling for a had to roll down even as the process was unfolding. That was the political buzz saw once the media got hold of it. As they headed gsa do you agree with the fact that you should have resigned . That is one of those questions that will haunt me forever. I did sit in front of the congress that i will mourn the rest of my life the loss of his job. It was a fabulous opportunity and we were doing wonderful things, and importantly, i did not resign because of all the innovative work were doing. It was not because were taking risks in trying new ways of helping the government perform better. It was another issue that brought this to the front. So importantly i want to say, you should not, you should not succumb to risk, the risk of innovation is important to do and its not something leaders should be afraid of or worried about. They need to take calculated risks and move. Were doing that and that is not why i resigned. I believe the white house in its various calculus which wasnt particularly privy to i felt i mean who knows what all that was about but they simply did not want to continue their support, and that was something i heard loud and clear spirit how did you do that . I was in a meeting with jack lew, the chief of staff, andy basically was expressing the president concerned. And the real concern that if the government is going to be operating well, the people that set the rules need to set a platinum standard. It was insid insideout that i d hear what was being basically requested. Did you ever meet with the president or hear from the president throughout this process to . No. I did not. I did not, and it was largely handled by staff. It was all handled by staff. I did not do from the president. Do you think that is appropriate . I dont know what is appropriate. In many ways part of my star is that im not a political animal. I am an executive management person and i have to say my hat is off to the Obama Administration for inviting me to play a serious role in the performance and management of government. Not policy, not programs but in how it works, and thats what my expertise is and thats where perhaps, well, thats what i do, and the politics and campaigns and the various issues around whos on first in washington. I was able to avoid a lot of that because it is a management organization, but i ran into the buzz saw. Do you think thats kind of a negative not to understand the object necessary of the politics of . All, i think i very, very competent staff that understood and i think were all taken for surprise. I dont know that this is one that could have been completely foreseen, because relative to other scandals, this is something the process should have taken care of. So thats part of it i think was, maybe a little overblown. I believe that had i stayed in office we couldve done some great things and wouldve been a huge benefit, and we lost that chance. Martha johnson, as you have been watching the Eric Shinseki affair play out, you become he has resigned now from his position, whats been your thoughts . A couple of thoughts. The first is i think Eric Shinseki is one of the great public servants. I worked with him a little bit and observed him, and he has a very deliberate and quiet style, and he should be respected. I think, i hold him as one of those, one of the people i wanted to emulate. I will say that the management analysis i have a row this is i think we have fallen in love with measures so much so that we have forgotten that the our whole systems around those measures that need to come into play. And one dimensional management scheme will measure you in a lagging indicator without sufficient resources is not the kind of incentive that works. With the overwhelming pressure to great measures and to numerous everything, i think we are signaling to the bureaucracy that thats the commission we want and thats a dimension and its a gotcha to mention. I think there is a lot of serious management, systemic structural change that needs to go on to balance out measures in the whole performs of government, government effort. So i really feel that thats the heart of what this is about, using measures, manipulating measures and then holding up one or two measures of somehow the be all of the endall. I think its very regrettable. Give us a sense, Martha Johnson, of being in that washington gotcha media feeding frenzy. Well, i felt it the most when i was in front of congress. I mean, i turned off the television. My son watched the john stewart stuff. I didnt follow any of that but i did feel it when i was in front of congress. The way i felt it in fact i had a friend, a media person advice before had my congressional hearings and the striking thing to me she said, when you are exchanging, you know, comments with the congressman, do not look that congressman in the eye. Do not. Look at the nameplate. You do not want to engage them personally because this is not personal. This is about them talking to the cameras and theyre doing something for a different stage and you are sitting there and it has to be orchestrated so that you dont get caught in an unnecessary hoopla about this. And there were cameras across the front, you know, clicking every time i blink. So i felt the intensity of it and i appreciated that advice that was, remember, this is more about the system of government. Its not about you personally. And when yo youre in that kindf crowded situation its good to remember that. At the same time when if somebody up on a dais pointing at you and saying mean things about you, looking you in the eye . I tell you, one of the things that i continue to think about and tried to evolve as i was lectured hard by one of the congressmen about the bullying culture in gsa. I was feeling a little bullet at the moment and i think we talk about bullying in of the context and i think we need to put that on the table a little bit more. But, frankly, as they redoing that they were looking at me. They were looking at the camera. Its very disconcerting to be lectured in another direction. You know, being in any kind setting like that is its own unique experience. Something else you talk about in on my watch, that first month after you left gsa. What was it like . Well, it was full of surprises and thats one thing i think people need to know when they crashed into a wall is that the other side of the wall has a lot of surprises, which you can capture very positive energy. My surprises were, you know, i was sitting at home looking at the dust on the furniture and not really sure what my life would be like. But it suddenly, i got to have lunch with my husband. I didnt have to get dressed in a suit everyday. I cant say to myself again, theres a hold live out the. What i want to do . And for me part of what i stepped into was my creative work, and i finished my novel. So that first month was sort of life had changed and i couldnt say no, i want to create something and ive been working on a novel. Ive been writing it on the bus going back and forth to washington. I was able to finish that and publish it. That is the kind of surprised that i think you can introduce into life after crisis like this, just take advantage of. Its not all pain. Its also the energy and the opportunity of something new. Was their depression and . You know, i think theres always bashed that i dont know if those depression as much as morning. They be thats depression. I dont know how to go about it but i still mourn that loss of the job. I always will. It was such an opportunity and i was raised i had an opportunity to change government and we launched a number of things and i just felt as if i hadnt finished my work. So that i will continue to mourn. Its a little bit of sadness but its not what dominates who i am. I have of the ways i can contribute and i believe in work, so im finding other work to do. Were you first on on the nonprofit with some of your former circles in washington when youve resigned . Well, my experience was that i had a rather Large Network i discovered and it broke into three categories but the first was what i call banana bread brigade. They all showed up with banana bread and the wine and the flowers and all the invitations to dinner and some. It was a huge support of loving hug and it was big. And then the second was a group of people who were really angry for me. They were angry at the system, angry about what happened and, of course, how to go until you all about that. I heard that but it allowed me to let go of my own thank you. When you take that on for me, ill send it to you and that gave me a little bit of space, emotional space. The third thing that i recognize was that the was a small group of people who are washingtonian, longstanding, who communicated to me a email or call and they said get a grip, thats washington. This is politics. Everybody knows what this was about. You will be fine. I found that wasnt quite something i could totally understand at the moment, but i completely embraced that now. Im fine. Im fine. The system still has although bit of work to do, you know, personally i felt as if ive emerged this huge lesson and a lot of energy to keep on worki working. Did you have any flashbacks when Jill Abramson was fired as executive editor . Top duo executive leaving, was there any comparison . I certainly watch the high profile stories and its interesting to me that that was such an amazing, that was a store that great a lot of buzz. Everybody wanted to sort of explore that. And the gender conversation about that has been i think significant about style, work style. I have found that those conversations are incredibly important and they do think that theres some real issue about the standards senior women are said to in terms of how they can compare with the guys and all that. Were Getting Better at that but we have a lot of conversation to have. I do say that it does open up a workplace, the New York Times and other media, and then the sort of brought in some of it. They use the word growth. The word gruff. A leader needs to be very careful about style, man or woman because youre the one in power. If youre the one in power and youre using a particular style that is negative, it will roll down the organization and they will stuff it and youll never begin to get back to the. You might learn things but the culture will be one of defensiveness and fear. And i am of the mind that a elitist style is as important culture as anything. So i think about that with her story, with all these others of what style and messages they were sending to the organization. Thats where i again, without the culture of performance of an organization rather than the politics of it. What is your novel about . Thank you for asking. Its not about murder on the potomac, nor is it about its a story about a gay boy in a small midwestern town, Southern Indiana and and its about his coming of age. Theres a parallel story in the korean war, another son of the same community who is also gay and who was murdered in a hate crime. And the one story, both stories have been kept completely under wraps, its a very special book and i really was able to go to a different place to finish writing that. Where did the concept come from . Well, it came from a group of activists that i knew in the 90s who were very concerned about gay ordination in the Presbyterian Church, and they just exposing to a lot of writing and a lot of issues about this, and i ran into a slightly similar story and said thats a novel. I picked it up and ran with it. You are active, orgy, in the Presbyterian Church of . I am. My and. My father is a minister but my grandparents were all clergy so thats part of my story, and to do think that theres something in leadership that is something about ministry, about taking care of an organization and ministering to its human needs as well as its performance needs. So i do got to give credit to the Washington Post who profiles you and your book on my on my watch leadership, innovation, and personal resilience. We hear a booktv had not heard about this before the Washington Post profiled you. What difference did that article make . Well, first of all, it was enormously gratifying for the Washington Post to call me up and say, would you be interested in being the subject of a feature . And i was but it was two years after all this had happened, about four or five months after the book had come out. I was touched, moved come into interest in the fact that they wanted to do it as a human story, not just a political