I didnt know what to do about it. All of us in this country are starting to see people coming out and talking about the experience of this phenomenon that so many of us have experienced in one way or another and had i have no words for it, other than adolescence. Other than going out. Finally, people were starting to stand back and say that this is not actually a normal part of growing up. This is not a normal rite of passage. I think there was a moment where there is a possibility for change. The director, lee hirsch and i started talking about this. Voices started bubbling up to the service. This is not something we can expect from a normal culture. In april of 2009, it was right after to young people took their lives. Both of those tragedies, i think really ignited a National Recognition of what was going on for so long. And we were seeing parents writing into message boards. We were seeing every news story that. Hundreds of comments from parents saying that my child is going through this. Kids thing that im going through this and i feel hopeless and helpless, and i dont know what to do. Educators writing an insane that we dont know how to handle this. We dont have the tools to responsiveness. And we decided at that time to start moving the kids who are on the frontlines of this relationship. Host so what is the difference between teasing and bullying . Is everything bullying that happens back to a child . Or is it Something Like a definition of a bullying that really works . Guest everyone will be teased him on. We all realize that. There are things that are goodnatured and teasing is are part of weight of commuting with each other. There is will be times when there is violence or two kids in a fight. That is not necessarily bullying. It is bullying when there is no difference in power. When the target does not have the ability to make a stop. When there is something going on over time. Continued abuse. In the end game is to delete them and humiliate them. Host is bullying something that is just about words . Is it isnt just physical . Is a combination . Today, we are seeing all kinds of forms. Bullying is worse than ever before. We have heard a lot about cyberbullying. Ways in which bullying is occurring in many different contexts. While that is absolutely significant as far as a piece of the picture, the good, oldfashioned bullying is still quite alive and well. So i think that it is something that is happening. Physical interactions, we see a child who every time its on a school bus, he is pretty likely to know that he is going to be shoved by someone. He is going to be pushed by someone. He may be pushed out of his seat. He is going to cure things. People are going to call him names. I think that that is something that is very prevalent in our society. It can be ostracization. They can be everyone throwing a party and somehow you are made very aware that you were not invited to this. It is a social exclusion that is a big part of it. Again, online, text and pictures and spreading rumors. So i think that it takes a lot about different forms. The reason it is so hard to work out is that it is about social dynamics and social hierarchy. There are relationships between children and adolescents, particularly in middle school, where they are jockeying for power, they are figuring out official use of power. It is complicated. The child who may be in the most popular crowd, they could be the same person that gets bullied on the bus. It has a lot to do with the group and this is everchanging. This is part of what makes it not just one kind of thing that is bad and we need to stomp out where every we see it. We have to understand what is taking place among kids were very sophisticated and a lot of understanding about who has power and who doesnt. Host how prevalent is bullying . Can you give us some information about how children generally faced bullying . Also whether there are special populations of kids who are particularly vulnerable . Absolutely. We know that 13 million kids will be bullied in the United States. This year. That is a lot of kids. We know that kids who are lgt kids that are lgbt. Host kids that are identified that way . Guest yes, absolutely. That is another big part of the picture. Another thing that is very vulnerable is kids who are on the opposite spectrum. Often kids who are at the high functioning mainstream in the schools. So they have great grades, they have the ability to look like everyone else, yet they have a disability that is invisible. And it plays out as not understanding the behaviors that someone may be doing and it is bullying and not friendship. Host yes. It is described in this book that kides. It is described in this book that kids with special needs have a pandemic. It is that public. Guest yes, absolutely. Host you know, one of the things aside from kids with learning disabilities, those with dyslexia, we have an essay by an author who talks about having gone through his adolescence and there being a bullying all over the place, and it is playing out in different ways in the community. And we have talked about at length how now that we are a lot more aware, when we look back on us, going to high school, kids were considered to be not smart or not intelligent. And now we are understanding how that plays into bullying. Just to clarify for the viewers, this author is a wellknown actor who is known for his role in the apprentice. Guest thats right. Host we Mention High School kids. Is there a subset in high school that is particularly vulnerable . Guest but we know its happening in junior high is that our childrens brains are changing. But literally they are sort of their frontal cortex is rearranging, their behaviors are more impulsive any of us who have been there or who have kids who are there can feel like the child is turning into a complete alien. A lot of emotion, a lot of learning how to process things. What happens with that is you can make a lot of decisions that you look back on and thank gosh, i didnt really think that one through. Another thing that is happening is the influence of peers is becoming more important than the influence of family or parents. There is a very big shift that takes place. And who the important elements are and where they are looking to for acceptance. And i think that is where we make adjustments for this. It really feels like this life or death thing. If you have been ostracized, you know, like the whole entire world is turned against you. With what we see taking place online and on the internet, the sense that the entire world knows something about you, that they have spread a rumor about you or doesnt like you, it can snowball very quickly. When messages are being sent on facebook, Text Messages and so forth. Host so it is about different kids who are perceived as weaker, perhaps . Different, perhaps . In whatever way shape or form it is, im sure that there is bullying that goes on a kids who are perceived as overweight or underweight were of one National Origin or another. I know that here in new york, we have several incidents where there are some sick kids that were targeted by bullies. And physically assaulted. So it is about so it is a way of not coming to terms with differences. Is there anything about the families of kids who are bullied . Those that allow conclusions to be drawn, or does this cut across all different kinds of families . I think that families are a huge part of the picture across the spectrum, across the section of kids that are bullied. I think that is one of the things that we really need to look at. There is a huge amount of pressure on educators to address this in the schools. There are laws passed to varying degrees of effectiveness that have really mandated that schools must be providing development and we have gone to a point within a short period of time, really, since 2009, where schools see their responsibilities in a totally different light. That being said, i think that bringing parents into the fold and working with parents on us, it is very difficult. I think that schools are scared that if they admit that there is a bullying problem taking place, but they will be attacked or that they will be liable to lawsuits. They are very portable and they need help and they are saying that they are trying to work on this. I think that parents of kids can be empowered in a lot of different ways. I think that one of the things that we see with bullying is that they dont tell their parents. This is absolutely what happens. Parents do not know what is going on with their kids when they walked to the bus, when they are at school, i think often kids know when their under stress. Parents know when they are under stress. The communication isnt great, or even if it is great, kids are ashamed. They are afraid that either their parents wont take them seriously. They will do something that will make the situation even worse. Kids are afraid of that. In situations where kids dont trust that they can make the situation better, without making them feel more alienated or making the bullies know, i think that kids dont want to tell. They dont want to perceive what is going on as bullying. I think one of the things for parents to look out one suspect their kids may be bullied, it is to find ways to talk to their children about being bullied. Host you say an interesting point. Interesting ways to identify whether there is bullying going on. But i think it is probably fair to say that most parents would give their left arms know how to do that. What dc for parents to try to talk to their kids reign. Guest i think it gets harder as you get older. When kids very much want independence and they want to be able to handle the situations on their own. I think that at different levels, the questions and conversations can be direct. I think kids in elementary school, it can be much easier to breach the topic. Questions or conversations about, you know, who is playing with whom. Who seems to be ostracized. I think those questions can be answered more directly. When kids get to middle school, it is more roundabout. One way of getting with the social fabric, it is asking questions about clicks. I think that kids are fascinated by changing clicks and social dynamics. How different groups identify themselves. Where do you feel like you are fitting in . Where you feel that you are not wanted . Host can you give us examples of questions that you think work for kids . We all know about being bullied in school. Guest i think questions around things like drama. Is there drama going on in groups . You have a group of kids over and you notice that someones not there. Where is Jeannine Janine today . What is going on with her . Is everything okay between you two . I think some of the questions that were brought up before. How do kids breakdown who, where, and why. What do you call the different kids in their groups . Howard how are they identified . Were some of the things they do together, that they dont do, who is part of that group . Simple questions like who do you sit with at lunch . Some kids will be open to answering that. Others will not. But i think that those are some ways to get into it. Afterschool activities. What are some of the things that are available . What interests you . If your child is interested in something and then seems to be suddenly withdrawn, i would definitely probe a little further. Maybe it is that passions and interests change. Maybe it is because it is within the activity. Host would you say its the responsibility of all parent all parents have a tough time. The object isnt hard to know whether kids are being heard, terrorized, bullied. But it is also, i would imagine, important for all parents, whether or not their children are being bullied, whether or not their children have a role in the social fabric. Im sure there are lots of to think of the kids perfectly happy, and it turns out that they may have they may be bullied. So questions like what goes on on the school bus,. Guest thats correct, where you sit on the school bus. I think that you will find a lot of kids will sit in the school bus, and youll go to the school estimates you unless you really want to get it. Some kids are terrified about what is going on back there. Cemented a question about what we would like you by what is going on, where does it seem not save . Where you feel safe . I think i kind of know a lot more about the social dynamics within the groups of kids that will come to their house after school, those that they will see on the weekends, i think just being involved in their childs life. Making sure that they are there for dinner every night. I think family dinners are very important, or where its possible for parents to be there. In terms of making the time to make sure that there is a safe place at home. Even when i remember when i was in high school. Just the time that we would spend together, and i knew that, it was very important. I think it is important we think right now there are incredible pressures on families. And i think it can be very difficult to take the time to stop and turn the tv off and just sort of decompress. That is one way of some of that information and patterns in things that seem to be out of whack. Host when you were making a documentary, then there came a moment when you took off your filmmaker had, can you tell us about that . Guest yes, we have been following alice through the school year. We were not aware that she was being bullied on the school bus. And it was something that was escalating over the course of the school year. We have let the school know early in the school year, on the very first day, that she had been punched on the bus, on the first day of school. School buses are pretty rough and back. But nothing was done. And as we were witnessing getting bullied more severely over the course of the year, and as we knew things that were happening to her, we came to a point that on the one hand, a responsibility and partnership going through this for years, this elementary school, on the one hand, the responsibility it was almost be able to say this wasnt typical. But this is what it looks like. And we are not one that glosses over. On the other hand, the responsibility is to the family when the school did not intervene after he continued to tell them that this was dangerous for him on the bus. Host you are a topnotch filmmaker, but you are a person first. So you are very responsible and you talk about these subjects in your movie and book, and it can be so important in getting things under control. How these children shouldnt be victimized by bullying. There is one thing i want to ask about quicker, which is School Resource officers, safety officers, they operate with a lot of different sections. Quickly before we take a break, what role do they play, i know that they are sometimes part of the problem. Guest there was a Police Officers two doors down from the assistant principal who did not report any of the behavior to the School Police officer. I think the officer can be a great resource. Not that you want to create a record for summoning the school kids, but you want them to know that there are real consequences to this behavior and the consequences only get real busy get older. And there is a liaison between consequences of behaviors can have when kids are younger, and the ability to say, you know what, i have to be responsible for my actions and here are the things i can do. The response of the adults that are supposed to be there, helping kids, protecting them, it is very critical. It is very critical to what happens to the children. Host all right, i think we will take a quick break now. And we will come back and talk more about some of the solutions to the problem. Bullying is probably easier to spot than it is to fix. Guest absolutely. Host i think that if we dont take a comprehensive approach, sometimes we can make things worse by bumbling. Okay, we will take a break now and we will be right back. Guest thank you. Host okay. On the go . Visit booktv. Org and click on podcasts on the upper left side of the page. Select which podcast he would like to download and listen to after words while you travel. Host lets talk a little bit more about the School Safety officers. Guest these officers can play a very Important Role when situations start to escalate where you have text messaging and bullying is happening. Also when it involves more than one serious incidents of assault. I think parents find that when they have tried to remedy the situation all were if they have reported problems on facebook and it is still continuing, i think that turning to the police for help can be an important step to take. What often happens is that it is looked at as something that is taking place among kids, but the role of the Police Department is to deal with this. The perception is not that they have more important things to deal with. Even for resource officers, there is often more officers who serve as liaisons and not necessarily dealing with behavior with things as they come up. Fools can partner with Police Departments to educate about bullying. Many Police Departments in the United States now are developing cybercrime unit. So that they are quick to say, okay, we can figure out where this message came from, and we can figure out where things are coming from, and i think i can be a very helpful thing for parents who have gotten to that point where they feel helpless. They investigate a great deal. Host so when you have Police Officers stationed in the school, and there are 5000 of them, do you ever hear about how they interact students . Are there problems with pool safety officers actually serving as bullies themselves . Guest im sure there are instances. There are instances when teachers are found to be going. I think that you dont want to have officers in a school that will intimidate kids. We want officers in the situations with the directions where they keep kids safe, that they help things before they get to the point where they are 18 years old and have a record that can really damage them for life. Host how you inoculate the officers and teachers, for that matter. Again, as part of the problem. What is important by way of rules and training to ensure that they have the tools, and also that they are accountable for protecting the kids. Guest i think it all comes down to the adults in the building taking bullying seriously. Its all about culture. I think it is about looking at the overall picture of what is the culture and climate in the school. And i think that one of the things that we know is that strong leadership really starts at the top. That principals have a great deal of influence about how the adults treat not only the kids, but also each other. There are some schools where you have a principal who intimidate all the kids. So what happened i