Give the fact they were excluded i was going tell the story where some of them went to europe, some went to new england and studied privately. Some studied privately in the atlantic and became teachers and doctors and all sorts of in fact, actually, one of the things i got more interested in as i started the project was why they were excluded from the colleges and universities. These colleges in fact had a long history with black people on campus, and slaves but not as students. They a long history with native americans and native American Students were on campus for 200 years. Host they were doing what . Guest as students for almost 200 years. Host how is it they were able to be on campuses . You write about that. Guest its the beginning of the book. If you think about it, the first attempt to build a college for native American Students is 20 20210 years. The first native minister probably 150 years before the first black minister. That sounds like native americans are privileged, in fact, part of the story i tell in the book its precisely the role of university in conquest. Its precisely the role that explains the early presence of native students on campus and precisely that role that explains how university turn to the slave trade to fund the surprise. Host when you say the conquest, from what i was reading was that part of the conquest was these are savages. These are people who are infour your and we have to educate them or train them or somehow make them unsavagelike. Im speaking in reference to the native american. Guest the belief was that the goal, the obligation was to bring the gospel and the bible to untutored people and civilize them in that way. That civilizing project went hand and hand with conquest and territorial expansion. None of one of the things that was spriedz surprising to me, was the quite clear role they played in the early colonial period. The american colleges and universities help take me as a kid as with a single mother and turn know a College Professor with tenure at the fantastic university. Host you and your sister who is an m. D. Guest yeah. My sister is a pediatrician in d. C. Ive always thought of Higher Education and colleges and universities as benevolent institutions. Institutions that do good things if we can get access to them. Once the Research Began to expose was the other role that universities can play. Universities can be, in my mind, weapons of social justice, but what shocked me when i started doing the research was they could be weapons of social destruction. Host in what way . Guest they could play huge part in intermining the integrity of native american nations and civilizations. One of the things i write about in the first chapter is the desire to christianize native american people. Several attempt to build college successful and failed. Which was all of the early colonial colleges have as a prepare mission the education of native people. But that has always sort of impact on native society. It en it means theres going to be generational division between parents and children. Youngsters brought to the Christian Education system are tutored in english, and only have, in fact, the remnant of native culture and language. Host in the book ebony and ivy do you talk about the type of cause m that might have been created as it relates to intergenerational conflict in guest sure. Yeah, i touch in the first chapter of the book in trying to show the way in which the Early College had a militaristic role. Part of their goal part of their purpose was to help achieve the strategic aid of the colleges. And so we and we often deploy education, and we deploy it in the colonial world to soften the resistance to native americans to europeans. Host then the whole issue of slavery. Because the one thing that catches obviously peoples attention and the critics have talked about this how the slavery founded these College Campuses, funded and built these campuses. Who were these individuals that built the harvards . The yale . The brown. I think many of us may remember the headline from Brown University that started with a study there. Guest right. Host how much of that had an impact on what was in ebony and ivy . It had a great impact on it. I was four or five years to the project when Brown University released its report, and the former president of brown courageously, actually, and within the face of criticism and criticism from her often actually from her own constituents, board of trustees. Guest yeah. And she courageously articulated the purpose of Higher Education. Which is the pursuit. And we pursue in all of these other arenas. We also have to put some truth in our own history as institution. And the brown board met in 2006 i realized how big it was. How much its going take. How many years it was going to take. There was a good part of me that didnt want to go forward. Host why . Guest well, you know, it just seemed enormous, and it wasnt clear that five years later or ten years later i would be done with a coherent book. What it seemed i would have no more information. That the time, you know, the book wasnt clear in my head yet. What i was clear about the amount of material there was to go through. The number of places i would have to go really pull host such as . Guest from, you know, quebec city in canada to the carolina along the east coast and stock land, england, holland. Host let start with those that are farrest away. Guest okay. Host why scotland . I could understand england. Why scott scotland bring feement understand understanding. Why would a book on race, slavery, and the troubled history of university. Guest its in the race part. In the section about the rise of race and racial thought. Scot hand scotland had and ultimately on the rise of the United States as a nation an independent nation. Scottish immigrants are the Largest Group of free people to cross. Host isnt that where the term red neck came from . Guest the larkest group of free people to cross the atlantic host were scottish. Guest in the decades before the American Revolution. Theyre filling in places like the pennsylvania back country, the carolinas, western kentucky. Toward georgia and appalachia. With this enormous migration comes a migration of ideas. The Scottish Universities played a key role in helping to modernize the colonial universities. The scottish faculty that come to teach and the ministers that come to governor over the school. Loads of americans students, colonial students who head to scotland to study science and medicine and come back to north america to do things like, for instance, establish the First Medical School in the north american common any alcohol host correct me if im wrong, they arent one of the principle players in the slave trade, were they . Guest theyre not suspects you look at. Theres a trade just like the small town. We have to remember small town like bristol. We have to remember how massive the slave trade is. Part of what the book is about is the enormity of the africa trade in the 17 and 18th century. The way in which the trade shaped the atlantic world. And that trade instituted the economy that convicted europe to the americas to africa to south america. And created in fact a transoceanic freight. Host how do with the United States will be born . In terms of building these campuses, when did who were these founders of these universities . Were they slave traders . Guest no. Host they werent . Guest well, they are largely ministers. Host okay. Guest from the various denominations. Remember they are denominational schools. Theres harvard and theres Baptist Brown and columbia, which is the Kings College. Theres the dutch reformed college which is now rutgers, and theres the princeton. These are actually denominational school. They emerge out of the church communion; right. Once you establish them, you need money. A lot of money the first source of funds will be england. The colonists will turn england. Host why would they want to fund . Guest thats the problem. Thats one of the problems. I jokingly describe it to myself as working on the chapters is, you know, why would the english want to give the puritans money to blaish school establish a school in new england. Getting rid of the puretists was a great goal. [laughter] theres not necessarily warm friendly relations between the puritan and the church. This is where we get back to native american history. And native americans become key. Because the american colonists were fearful at raising money using the evangelist of native people as a goal. And so sending off missionary to england to britain under and raising money under the claim they were evangelizing native people. The first brick building at harvard is the indian college. Thats where the money thats where the donations are coming from. Host it goes back to what you were saying earlier. It allows the expansion of the alcohol any and the expansion. Guest to facility the economic expansion and the territorial expansion. And, you know, it accelerates the crumb crumble of native society on the frontier and the borders. They are not quote, unquote, slave owners. Eventually after independence guest even before. Host they do turn. They turn pretty quickly. They are religious groups. They are church groups. Very quickly they have to figure out the sources of funding. One source is going europe, england in particular. And raising money often under the claim one is evangelizing native americans. The other source of money they have available to them is the rising population of colonial elite. People who actually have money within the colony. And in particular, both in england and in the americas, that group is made of slave traders who are operating out of place like bar barbados and jamaican may. Many of them are absentee likes or dislikes who live in england and manage it from afar. Host often sending children. Guest right. And sometimes as i read the male children oldest might go military or the oldest might go to own the land. The middle child or the next youngest go off to college. Guest i actually point out. They station their children in various point. And thats how we should think about that. They are family nexts. Networks. Theyll have the main warehouses and storeses from new york city and manhattan. But theyll also send a son to the caribbean, and establish them there. Theyll send another son to england. From the various point they manage their operation more efficiently. It give them a chance to make strategic changes in the plan for the long extended shipping voyages. They are also are two reasonses to do it. The american schools, the colonial schools quickly begin to also turn to the population of increasingly wealthy men and families. With interests and the americans. And begin to advertise themselves actually. As the institutions is of their own making and design that can cater to their children more efficiently. I use several example. One more famous. Is john who becomes a scot a minister there scotland becoming the president of what is now princeton university. One of the things he does is writes a one of the chapter is named after it in which he says has come to imply great wealth. Then he goes ton promise if they send their boys to princeton, theyll be well taken care of. And guided and super vise supervised and turn in to substantial young men. If you send them to england the British University are too large and decentralized to give them that kind of attention. What hes really selling is the potential of the american colony to serve themselves and the potential of the educational constitution to cater and large plantation owners in the caribbean when we read the review as most people probably with will before without getting to ebony and ivory we are talking with the professor craig steven. Race, slavery, and the troubled history of american universities, the impression is that slaves built these universities not just that the money from the slave trade financed them. But was there actually the presence of slaves on it in the university of harvard, yale, princeton, brown . What capacity or every capacity guest yeah. In every capacity you can imagine related to labor. You know, the enslaved people cleaning the hotel, they often called it. Basically the dormitory of the colonial period that clean up after the student. They prepare meals. They collect wood. They gather wood for fires. Theyre in charge of lightening the candle and putting them out in the evening. Of cleaning up the study rooms and presentation rooms and runninger rands for the students and faculty at harvard, at yale, at columbia, at princeton. Many of the College President s owned enslaved people. And arrived on campus with slaves. Host come from scot land. Guest and purchase at least two people. One for the main house and campus house. Host were these individuals under the ownership of the university incorporated or under the ownership of various professors . Guest its both. Yeah, i mean, i think its a technical issue, kind of. That is a little bit harder to decipher in the colonial period. For instance, theres a one of the things i look at as i was exploring this. I looked up the county records in which these the counties where the colleges are. You look at the colonial county records, often youll have the name of the president or the name of their professor, and then listed with their taxable property will be an enslaved person or two or three. Host did students bring their slaves . Guest yeah. Host they actually brought them to school with them . Guest yeah. What happened if you look at the name of the president and three lines over part of the taxable property is an enslaved person. What youll often is, for instance, in the case of princeton or harvard, youll actually have the president s name, ditto the college. Well, who owns the person then . A sort of Common Knowledge of the town, of the local area, the president and the college are kind of inseparateble anyway. I didnt spend a lot of time actually trying to decipher that. In fact, the president and the college are host if i collegetown. Guest right. [inaudible conversations] guest and more College Towns than they are now. Guest yeah. If u f you can believe that. Host right. Guest these are host cambridge would be a college town. Guest right. Nassau hall the tallest building in British American when its built. These colleges dominate the environment. One of the things that i also found fascinating about ebony and ivy you talk about the slaves who build the campuses and waited on the faculty and students was the the curriculum. This white supreme sincerity that wasser. Strait perpetrated. You are a professor of history at m. I. T. I dont know how you maintain your intellectual sanity and you obviously knew it before, though, if you have it supported in the Actual Research of these quote, unquote, what we now consider liberal institutions. Teaching white supreme supreme sincerity im not trying to sound as if im surprised. If you said that now about yale or harvard, you know, people would think, my goodness, when did this start . How did it get started . You sort of explain in because of the people who started these universities. Guest its built in the origin. Its in the source of the funding, and the continued remember, as the American Revolution approaches, and the tension between the colony and england increases, the capacity of the american the indian college, harvard, largely, you know, taken down at the end of the 17th century and the beginning of the 18th century. Host they cant finance it. Guest they use it for other stuff. Host all right. Guest and to be perfectly honest. I wrote it in the book, as the native American Military threat in new england declined. The interest in evangelizing native american declines with it. Host theres no [inaudible conversations] guest to some extend. It doesnt mean there was a sin veer it mean there was also in fact a strategic interest in evangelizing and christianizing. You know, and so, yeah, absolutely. One of the things that happened in this that i wrested with in the book and related to the question you asked me earlier about did students bring slaves to campus. Host right. Guest yes, they do. William and mary they pay fees to house their slaves on campus. At columbia, then Kings College, George Washington comes to new york city with his stepson, and jay i cans slave, joe. And the president of columbia, Kings College at the time, miles gives him a suite of roomses that jackie has painted and suited to his swift haste. And joe was actually in the smaller bedroom of the two where he can, you know, so yes, people, student arrive with slaveses to campus. The faculty often had slave. One of the thing that i want to get across in the book. The chapter with enslaved people on campus. Enslaved people were inseparateble part of the College Experience in the colonial world. Host which meant that exposed to Higher Education, or guest yeah. They were. And in fact, actually, there are examples of this. Betsy stock don who was enslaved to one of the president of princeton studies. She becomes a gifted scholar. Shes being consulted by biblical. Host shes selftaught. Guest largely selftaught. The president who owned her actually gave her instructions. He instructed her in the host first of all, who was he . And the reason i bring this up, you write here that this future cotton planter, and they were talking about, i believe, henry watson, jr. , also wrote that the ancient egyptian had the curly hair and other features of the african race, and that contemporary egyptians were only lighter in complexion because of centuries of mixing with europeans and professor did not leave it to his students to infer that black africans cradled civilization. This fact refused all the false theory. So often in favor of slavery. Expand on that. It seems to be apparently what youre saying here, there was a conflict, i take it, who were the egyptian how is racism taught . Who were african