Selfdetermination. Host author herb boyd with us on this Independence Day weekend. Professor boyd, what is july 4 me deal . Guest it means the same thing what it meant to Frederick Douglass, you know. While you can have the general celebration and everything, we have a different perspective from the africanamerican community. This was a long history to understand exactly the distinction in terms of the celebration for one community and the kind of lack of observers on the other part of the community. What does it mean to people who history of segregation. You have to understand the kind of sensitivity that might be distinct from one community to another. Obviously we Start Talking about this history of this country and the role of africanamericans in terms of providing that celebration, that is a whole another question because we have been in the forefront of the socalled battle for freedom and justice and liberty in this country from day one. From day one going back to the socalled boston massacre this was the first and since that moment you can look at it. Across the years, no matter what kind of turmoil or conflict battle for world war this country was all involved in youth on the contribution of africanamericans. Certainly what Frederick Douglass was saying at the time is what does it mean to the slave in this country . Your socalled celebration . We have to keep that in mind as we approach this particular holiday. In your autobiography of a people but i think you say 5000 africanamericans fought in the revolutionary war. Exactly. Some of those, most heroically, i was think about one of the individuals that stand out when solomon , peter salem, he was a flute player in terms of you always see this here image of the revolutionary war where three people are marching to drum of the flute player. At that time a player and someone else holding the flag. Will that player could have very well have been him in terms of the contribution that he made they are providing the kind of musical inspiration and it has always been part of our struggle in this country. Almost inseparable for the people who were wielding the guns and going out to battle. If you look at the civil war, if you look at the Civil Rights Movement also, again the music is very important. But here he is during the revolution. Who is providing the kind of instrumentation you know the martial music of that day as well as picking up a gun at some point. So youre absolutely right in terms of the contribution. Not only from an army standpoint but also in the naval situation. There were black naval participants in the war at the same time. So that is the beginning. In terms of understanding this whole history, the odyssey, the evolution of participation of blacks in the military in this country. Are there two separate histories going on in the us . [laughter] i think that has always been true peter. Almost from the beginning and i think when you look at it from the origins of the country and going back to the first africans that was brought here. And understanding the treatment that they received, the distinction. We always understand the indentured servants who were brought in. The whole 1619 and going back to the mayflower compact of 1620. You look at the history of black people in the state of new york and particularly in the city of new york. Or even detroit for that matter. Because like a microcosm you know of the history of black people. And understanding these here two separate societies are being shaped. And at very dramatic moments in our history, that separation is sharpened by conflict. We can talk about it in terms of the rebellion of 1967. We can talk about the current report of 1968. We can talk about you know these two societies out there, one black and one white. Moving almost inevitably toward the conflict that is created and the tensions, the turmoil that comes as a result of those distinctions. The kind of separate treatment, the restrictive covenants, unemployment, lack of unemployment opportunities for africanamerican people. All of this here as into the notion of two separate communities, two separate societies, two separate countries that we have inside of this United States of america. There is a kind of separation almost from the beginning. And whether or not we can ever kind of mollify that in bring these two communities together well, that is what we have been struggling about over the years in terms of from the emancipation days right on down to the Current Situation where we look at the differences in the treatment of africanamericans particularly from the Police Department in the country. Herb boyd, in your book black panthers in beginning. Here is that dedication. For font families who dared to challenge the most oppressive government. The black Panther Partys almost emblematic of this here resistance. The reluctance to go along with the status quo. To speak out, to speak truth to power. To pick up a gun even. Did you to do something about the oppression that they were experiencing. The black panthers from the beginning was a very Interesting Development for me because it was a way of working with lance who is an opportunity for us to graphically present you know the, other than the kind of academics that that had been done over the years. Lance is the illustrator of the book. And he did a remarkable job of capturing the kind of check for both goal of the panthers. What i tried to do with the narration of there is kind of matched the kind of graphic interpretation that he had in mind. We went back and forth on that. But at last i think he just demonstrated an ability to absorb the kind of imagery that it presented that an Emory Douglas had also who was the electric artist, the illustrator, the cultural commissar you know of the black Panther Party at that time. So what we are trying to do there is to give a, a negative perspective on some of these memoirs and of course the absolute, their endless beginning with bobby seal and you renew in and Eldridge Cleaver and kathleen cleaver. All of these individuals, Erica Huggins that put our books about the Panther Party. The real is just our contribution to that. But giving another angle in terms of particularly for Young Readers out there who are just being introduced to the panthers. Heres a way because many of them are coming out of their visual experience counseling is an opportunity for us to give you a kind of visual representation of black Panther Party. I think we are told about one of the worlds most oppressive governments. That was certainly their perspective on it. That is how they viewed it and they moved at that particular understanding. So i dont argue with you know, with their particular interpretation. I tried to find out what do they mean in terms of how they deliver, who was or what was the reaction to this oppressive government . And the reaction across the country was a very violent period. Probably one of the most violent periods in the nations history in terms of what was happening out of the africanamerican community. And voicing the resistance. You know this is an outrage, and outcry coming from them. And sometimes i guess you know in terms of expressing our resistance, it takes on these very violent terms and that is not the first time. Many many elements of black people fighting back. Thats pretty much. The applicant american history. The whole sense of resistance. The idea that you know we kinda just went along with the idea of the way things were. No way in my studies of africanamerican and american history, i have kind of highlighted some of the moments in which that resistance check a very, very very violent forms. Of course with the black Panther Party that was the most dramatized aspect of it. Television is available, you have these charismatic individuals, the whole presentation if they had, the swagger, the dress, the black beret. You know wearing leather jackets and everything. Kind of marking to a very different beat. As we talked about marshaling a resistance against this Oppressive Society that you are talking about. Some of their perspective on it peter. We may have argued with it, they were different organizations out there who had different strategies. You know proposing different kind of tactics as well as philosophical and ideological approaches to that Oppressive Society. They wanted to dramatize it in such a way that you know sometimes even saying that out of the barrel of the gun, picking up the whole redbook that they did at some point. The approach. It was a revolutionary practice going on. It was not at all unique for the black panthers party. It was kind of a, a universal, global expression of resistance. They picked it up, they say the wind has changed it was blown across the african continent. A kind of liberation movements there. Fighting against portuguese colonialism for example picked a fight against what was going on in south africa what was happening in other parts of the continent, algeria. Through algerian revolution. The kinds of things in the air so we picked it up, gained the same in terms of moving against this Oppressive Society. That you have to do this in a violent way because john bounces his know we can purge the land without blood. With his natural heirs to Marcus Garvey . Where they went . Natural heirs to Marcus Garvey . Not exactly. I think you have to understand that they were more the natural heirs of malcolm x. [laughter] and there is a connection it. Very interesting because you have to get to malcolm and going back before you get to marcus. Because malcolm, his parents were garveyites. Right . And they had picked up from the members of the un ia the universal Negro Improvement Association for the whole movement at that time that grew out of the 1920s or less. Because at one point in 1922, you had almost 6 million members you know of the Garvey Movement here in this country and across the caribbean. And that is really the connection the panthers have is with malcolm x. Because you know malcolm was assassinated in february of 1965. The Panther Party came into existence almost a year later. In october 1966, boom it is fully blown out in oakland california. Although many people feel also elements of it developed right in harlem. So that was a certain kind of energy, inspiration, influence, technically that they picked up from malcolm. So if theres any kind of direct connection between the panthers any president , thinker or movement, that probably be, it would probably be malcolm x. In your collection of essays about malcolm x, by any means necessary. Malcolm x we live in a short memory culture. White supremacy is the system that dominates black life from cradle to grave. Therefore, black life is seldom formally taught in our institutions and even less discussed informally. He is absolutely right. I should also add with that particular publication, is that i have with me. Then i have three doctors there with me. [laughter] i like to keep those doctors with me. And really the book is this reaction to many transport very very controversial biography of malcolm x. And we put our Heads Together on and said something had to be said you know to counter some of the conclusions that manny had reached in his book. So what has to happen, i had meant Something Like 75 reviews. And i reproached the other ricoh editors there and proposed the idea, of course the book is published by third world press. And so he was very very you know something has to be done because we are kind of the sons of malcolm. We figured that you know what he had to say in their, what manny had to say and of course, you know i love manny and i really stood right with him across the years. But we have had some differences when he came to his interpretation. We figured lets express them and rather than personally expressing why dont we round up all of these different other thinkers about it and for the most part, people who are taking opposition to what manny had to say in so many respects. It may not be here transport there at this point to summarize exactly what was happening with that. It is very complicated and involved process in terms of understanding what manny was saying. And what are we reacting to . And what were some of the problems he presented . But when you have some 35 different writers there and for the most part, they are against what manny has to say. Oppressive bring seven and who support him also. To have some kind of balance there. But what he is talking about is that we have an absence in terms of, and it goes back to black studies. The whole creation of black studies, peter, is that we were saying some things back in the 1960s that we were not being properly reflected in the education system, the curriculums and what have you in this century and something had to be done about that and we all grew out of a period in which black studies is very typical in terms of educating and getting a perspective and an understanding and an analysis. A very critical analysis of what was going on from an educational standpoint in this country. And he had been like a superb teacher. A superb publisher, a magnificent poet. And it was really basically his idea that picked up and made this project work for us. So i felt very comfortable in having anything he proposed intensive analysis about society. I just talked to him the other day and the whole project that he is involved in now intensive dealing with the trump administration. So that continues the same kind of legacy and desire to bring about change in our society. And by any means necessary came out in 2012. And before he wrote his National Awardwinning book has an essay in there as well. Well, you mean in terms of the american book award . The National Book award, right . But you have an essay in here find him. Yes well my goodness, what a remarkable young man. You know, he, you have to go back and read his essay in terms of how he deals in. Kind of like a balanced approach to any it has been a phenomenal thing to put them out there on front street you might say. And rightfully so. He is a very very insightful you know commentator on the times. I think it captured a spirit particularly for the next generation that is coming along and picking up some of the things of the older folks, the elders put forward in that particular publication. I know his father very well, paul, who was a publisher of black classic press. Over the years equates is a former panther himself. Talk about the black Panther Party. Paul was a member of the black Panther Party. We always hit a fruit never falls that far from the tree and he has picked up a number of the elements of the previous generation and incorporated it into his understanding of whats happening right now in our society. And it was always just a joy to work with him. I mean, he glared black except for me so we have this continuing relationship in i have a tremendous respect for him and what he is doing out there. You know they kind of throw him into i think some of the other people who began to see him as the second coming, you know of James Baldwin, i dont know that that is actually fair for him. And he kind of disavows it to a certain extent. But i know what they are saying. They are saying that we finally have someone who has the same sensibility, the same sensitivity in terms of where we are as a people. And what needs to be said, what needs to be done. You know, speak truth to power. And i think he carries on the tradition. He has a similar eloquence. He has a similar perspective, a sense of analysis. At the same time you know a command of words. And that is very important because that is what baldwin was. He lived in the whole command of our literature and how to present that in such a way that it could resonate for just the ordinary person out there. But also for the academics out there who require a little bit more inches if you presentation. So as to strike a nice balance between what you quality street folks who can connect with some of those ideas at the same time some of the academics who really demand a little bit more rigor and intellectual inquiry. Herb boyd, you wrote a biography of James Baldwin that came out in 2008. Baldwins harlem. There seems to be a resurgence in discussion and reputation of James Baldwin. It is not fair . No doubt about it no matter where you look you have baldwin. I was looking at Sonia Sotomayor who is in the supreme court. And she was courting James Baldwin. There is a film that made the rounds called im not your negro. A very fine filmmaker, stephanie did was significantly important. So i had an opportunity to address the particular film at the comet in pittsburgh at the film and Arts Festival to talk about the significance of baldwin again. You know, the fire next time. They have like three or four publications that that kind of play off the title, James Baldwin from that variance. I mean those essays, two or three essays that comprise the fires next time you know if baldwin had his magisterial best. This is the epitome of James Baldwin in terms of addressing the kind of inequities that exist in our society. I mean this is superb supreme baldwin. And i understand people going back in revisiting not, it is a 1963 publication. But it is eternal. It wont go away and thought they wont go away because he was, his words were so prophetic. He was dealing with a situation that his time and there was a number of problems and issues. Some of the same concerns we have today that he addressed back then. So thats why his words have meaning today. Because the issues that he addressed c