Welcome to politics prose im brad graham, the coowner of the bookstore along with my wife Lissa Muscatine and were very pleased to be hosting two ryzens here this evening we have veteran journalist jim and his son, journalist tom, and theyre here to talk about their new book the last man the cia the fbi, the mafia and the kennedys and one senators fight to save democracy. Our jim, of course, is a very accomplished investigative reporter, did some outstanding work with the new york times, where he was for for nearly 20 years from 1998 to 2017. He a member of the team that won the 22 pulitzer for explanatory for coverage of the september attacks. And then with a colleague he shared that 26 pulitzer for national for coverage of the nsa domestic spying program. Hes also written four books a about americas fight over abortion, about the cias final showdown with the kgb, about the cia and the george w bush, and about the costs, consequences of americas war on terror and first dozen years or so, after 911, currently his Senior National security correspondent for the intercept his son, tom its been a journalist for 15, 16 years. And hes worked for various news organizations covered and covered a wide of local and national topics, including National Security and u. S. Politics. His current focuses on in the last honest man, they look back at the life of former democratic senator frank of idaho, who was one of the most consequential lawmakers of the 20th century. He served in the from the late 1950s through the sixties and seventies church emerged as an early opponent in congress, the vietnam war, and also later launched a landmark investigation to the rising global power of americas corporate giants. But hes best known for investigating in the mid 1970s, decades earlier abuses by Intelligence Community churches to close disclosures shook the nation. The Senate Committee he chaired aired basic questions about the proper balance between liberty and security and the wide ranging reforms he spearheaded resonate to this day. Jim and tom, Credit Church with nothing less than creating rules of the road for Intelligence Community. A rules that largely remain in place today more than anyone else in American History, they write church responsible, bringing the cia, the fbi, the and the rest of the governments intelligence apparatus. Under the rule law. For the first time now, the last honest man is not just an authoritative of churchs life and work. Its a book that reads an espionage thriller and imparts relevant lessons about government overreach and institutional oversight. So ladies and please join me in welcoming james risen and thomas risen thomas risen. Thanks. So im jeffrey. Thanks very much for me. And i bradley and i really appreciate your time and coming out here. Its great to see everybody. This has been really labor of love to actually write a book with my son is is a phenomenal experience and to write about a who i really admire has also been great. Ive spent my life writing bad people, doing bad things and it was nice to have a change in write about a good man who did things and that was really why i wanted to do this book because i thought was a time in america where we needed to remember some people instead of the people we have around these days who shall go right now and. So church was frank church was a who i think is really out of out of his time at that time he was he was a classic american liberal who became radicalized throughout his career and its very rare in american politics to see someone who is transform armed throughout career and changes drastically and and is willing to evolve as a politician. And that to me was fascinating to to understand and to write and and i think it led ultimately for a unique young man from, the Mountain West to go from a small conservative town, idaho, to lead the Major Investigation of the cia in the mid 1970s is a amazing transformation and if you think about it and thats what we tried to document was how he how he got to where he ended up he started out in boise. He was born in boise in 1924. And was considered the smartest kid in class. And became one of the it became probably the class pet, if you will. All the kids sort of resented the fact that the teachers all loved him. But then they also realized was smarter than them. And so there wasnt much they could they had to kind of respect his intelligence when was in middle school, he got a letter the editor in the boise published on the front page because he wanted to defend senator William Borah of idaho, who was being criticized for his isolationism. And then a couple of years later, he won the National Oratory contest of the American Legion by presenting a speech that was radically different from the letter to the editor had just written a couple of years earlier and his speech was essentially like the four freedoms speech or Franklin Roosevelt defending american and the need for regulation, american capitalism and to fight against fascism in the world. And it was a remarkable transformation and in just a couple of years and then he he that the win in that competition got him a scholarship that he was to go to stanford and leave boise. But then with World War Two, he ended up in the army as an Army Intelligence in china. Hes one of the youngest officers in america in the army at the time and became the briefer for the commanding in china by 1945 and the he such a precise voice a way of speaking at such a young age he was only 21 he was a Army Intelligence in china that his commanding general of the chinese command for the us army would have him put him basically on display and have him talk at dinner parties of american officers. And because any that you have the best diction, the army and people he began resent it. He felt like he was just a plaything of this general and thats one of the early signs of radicalization is that he resents and turned against being, you know part of this hierarchy. He felt was supporting a corrupt chinese regime of chiang kai shek. And he turned against the American Military power very early. He saw he wrote letters home that are in the Frank Church Papers in boise, where he talked he was he was felt revolted by the american atomic bombing of japan. Even though everyone else in the army in china was elated by it. And he came to the us. He turned down an opportunity to stay in intelligence after the war which might have led him to join cia if he had stayed in and he up going back to boise and after he had suffered cancer. He went to law school and, ran for senate when he was only 32 and got elected and when was first elected he was a he was a very he was a very traditional. Cold a democratic cold warrior of the 1950s. And it really wasnt until vietnam that he was radicalized and i would wanted to ask tom to speak a little bit about what church did not know while was joining the senate and become and beginning to fight against vietnam war in the early sixties. He did not yet know about the cia because the cia there was no oversight of the cia that time. And we talk a little bit in the book about the growth of the cia in the 1950s. Yeah. And as i mentioned, theyre the Armed Services in Congress Officially had power. But as we know, congress is very busy and the Armed Services committee. One more thing to do is not ideal so. And also there was a lot of deference. So the cia, fbi were able to pretty much do what they wanted and pay some lip service to the lawmakers, you know, who were the fbi or cia. And so they pretty much did what they wanted and cia was created out of the wartime oasis in 1947. Its charter sort of vague. One thing thats very, very clear is are not allowed to operate inside the United States. And thats because president harry truman very worried about the United States secret police. He was already dealing with J Edgar Hoover who had by time had been leading the fbi for decades. And would increasingly target leftists and africanamerican groups, culminate in the 1960s control probe program that Church Committee would eventually investigate and in absence of this oversight, the cia did a lot covert action that really would have turned heads if people were paying attention pretty much immediately. They started bribing governments in italy and japan with the aim of subverting communism, they overcorrected in that case, and led some corporate corruption that frank church would also investigate. In japan. Id look it up in the book so corruption begets more corruption and the cia also picked up the uss quest for the perfect interrogation drug that it started during world two. They drug prisoners looking for the best way to interrogate people, looking for a truth drug. They took that up, expanded it and called it mkultra and with the knowledge of president eisenhower, they drugged americans without their knowledge, especially with lsd was the hot new drug of the 1950s. They were kind of obsessed with it. And they also looked for the perfect torture method and create the first black sites in, places like germany, japan, south korea, south, vietnam, anywhere. The military had a presence. Panama canal also a big area. There was a military base there at the time. And like i said, a big fact finding of the Church Committee was that president s like Dwight Eisenhower pretty much knew what the cia doing. You know, if they didnt know because they want to know. But eisenhower knew that americans were being drugged without their knowledge. And he to use the cia as a force of shadow american power, he didnt want a direct military confrontation with the soviets. So he thought he would use it to subvert, you know, keep the status quo in favor of the western powers, europe and the United States. He used it to stage coups in nine in iran in 1953, guatemala, 1954, congo, 1960, and kind of sought to replace european colonialism with american hegemony and helping him with this were the brothers allen dulles as director of cia and John Foster Dulles as secretary of state. And neither of these men particularly suited for their jobs. They were and elitist both their uncle and their grandfather had been secretary of state. How elitist they were and were pretty arrogant and had this Foreign Policy where there was zero room for even negotiate with communists and that like i said, overcorrecting know communism is bad, but they overcorrected and eisenhower was there with him. He thought that the end of colonial was a destructive hurricane. As we write the book and that helped lead to the disaster, the vietnam war, where francis was dealing with counterinsurgency for the better part of a decade since the end of World War Two. It go well. They make a lot of mistakes that the American Army will later repeat pretty frighteningly. And so by the time frank church is in the senate and he visits vietnam in 1962, its pretty clear that the saigon government is the us military has supporting and abetting them. Britain and france refused to help because there supposed to be a treaty. The geneva accords, that would have united vietnam through an election. Ho chi minh probably would have won was incredibly popular. He was a communist communists were killing rival groups. So there was already a civil war brewing. Think there was going to be blood . The united just made it worse. And thats so. Frank church visits vietnam in 1962 and he notices things are not going well. When church arrived. In 1962, president kennedy, who he was, he very close to kennedy, had wanted him and some other senators to tour vietnam and he went and he was just shocked by the corruption and the incompetence of the south vietnamese regime. And reminded him completely of the Chinese Nationalist army and the Chinese Nationalists regime of chiang kai shek. And he went back to washington and began to slowly to turn against the war. He was, since he was so close to kennedy, he was very discreet and subtle about his criticisms of the war at. He turned he would the the south vietnamese government but he wouldnt criticize his the kennedy administrations policies and it was really only when Lyndon Johnson president that began to turn openly against the us policy in vietnam and his relationship Lyndon Johnson went downhill very fast. He johnson had been Senate Majority leader when church was first elected to the senate and they had had very up and down relationship. He was in the senate very volatile but now it went completely south because church willing to be very open in his opposition to the war and he was the first major senator who johnson considered credible to openly turn against the war and he really pressured William Fulbright was the chairman of the Senate Foreign relations at the time to hold hearings on vietnam. And it was the pressure think from church that finally helped force fulbright hearings were a watershed moment the mid 1960s on vietnam and it helped opposition to the war and then later in the during war church became very frustrated that congress was having so little impact on ending the war that he became deeply depressed and. He finally began to push for congress, defund the war, and defund military operations. He started on the edges that with a series legislative moves called the Cooper Church, which began efforts stop any operations in thailand and then move to try trying to stop military operations, cambodia, and then finally trying to defund all military operations, vietnam itself, and think historians today agree that it was the Cooper Church amendments and similar Actions Congress which finally force nixon, Henry Kissinger to begin, accelerate and intensify peace negotiations with North Vietnam and, ultimately led to the peace accords of 1973. And i think that was really church doesnt get the credit that he deserved for his role in helping to end vietnam war and it as i said earlier he was he started in the 1950s when he got to congress as kind of a cold war hawk much like kennedy was. And it was it was the democratic mainstream of the late 1950s, was very hawkish. And they were trying to be more hawkish than the republic hence in the wake of the era. And church really evolved from that. It was transform armed by vietnam much more than any other senator. He became a real radical by the late 1960s and early 1970s, and he compared he began to compare the United States to the soviet union. He thought that the United States becoming a militaristic empire that was dangerous force in the world, just like the soviet union and his speeches. If read them today are just shockingly. Leftist for a senator from idaho and probably the only thing his his the main political that he received was that he had split personality. On the one side, he was becoming this radical. The other side he was deeply politically ambitious and he wanted to be president and he was extreme good at navigating how to present his radical views. Idaho to an increasingly conservative audience. And he did that in a remarkable way by just honest with them and by telling them exactly what he thought. And its kind of refreshing to see what he was saying to people in. Idaho in 1968, when he had run for reelection in the midst of the war, and he would go from county courthouse to the fremont courthouse to the other, and he would sit down with people and talk about vietnam and explain he was turning against the war and why he was afraid of what was doing to the nation. And people in idaho accepted it and they saw that as well. Hes hes explained to me, he sits down with me and he talks about it. And in simple english and it worked. Its remarkable that politicians dont try honesty. And. And yet idaho becoming more conservative over and so he he realized eventually by the mid 1970s he realized i think that the state was turning against him and he wasnt sure how long he was going to be able to continue and in the senate but and he had this dual view i think of his life one as i said he was deeply politically ambitious but becoming radical and i think thats the great tragedy of his life was he never quite figured out to resolve that in his life of being a radical who was very worried about the future of the United States as a republic. He thought it was going to become an imperial power that was unaccountable and yet he still wanted to be president of the United States, or at least chairman of the Senate ForeignRelations Committee here. And i dont think he ever resolved. How do you how do you navigate those two completely opposing thoughts . And and that climaxed in 1975, when he was he wanted to run the Church Committee, but he also wanted to run for president. And he did. And it was kind of his ultimate, uh, the ultimate problem. He quite resolved but in his mind or in his because while he ran the Church Committee, he was being criticized by many who thought that it was just he was just using i