They would be released on bail for the second, third, fourth and fifth and tried another year later and given probation again too often. This was driving the crime rate. We achieved a lot. Thats why i was willing to support with and support senator durbin committed to reduce the mandatory census. I think we can be smarter about it. I dont have any doubt we can be smarter about it. It would be naive and a big air if we were to think we can just walk away from incarcerating dangerous people. You were worried for your guards. A lot of the people are just dangerous and weve just got to be real careful about that. I think we need to watch the cost. The federal prison system cant be the greatest system, most expensive in the whole world, which is. We just cant. Weve got to watch, look for ways to reduce costs. And weve got to be cautious about adopting the belief that theres been some new Recidivism Program thats going to solve the recidivism rate. If we can reduce it even a little bit, im willing to support a good program. But a lot of the brookings just never produce the results we want them to have. Recidivism rate today is a lot different than it was in 1980, i dont think. And so we are spending a lot more on it, trying to make it better. We havent had a very successful achievement there. And finally you and i have talked about prison industries. Theres no doubt in my mind that people who work in prison prefer it. Prisoners who have worked programs are safer, arent they, mr. Samuels . Yes. The data shows that clearly. And they probably have a little better recidivism rate, i dont know. They do. We have to have a breakthrough. More people in prison need to be working. There have been attempts, some of them not very smart, to help prisoners work but i wouldnt believe all of us need to look for a way to have more Productive Work in prisons. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator sessions. Senator klobuchar. Thanks very much, mr. Chairman. Appreciate the comment about smart sensing. I know how we to keep dangers of fencers my state has one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country. We also have one of the lowest crime rates. Part of that is triaging these cases in making sure there is some response to lowlevel offenses escalating responses. But the length of it can be a matter of dispute. I think thats part of what were talking about here. I came through this looking at our state which sometimes people joke would not just the latter 2000 lakes, where the land of 10,000 treatment centers. But our focus on going after addiction and some of these things i think has made a difference in handling of these cases, and in particular drug court in drug cases make up about a third of our caseload in the Hennepin CountyAttorneys Office which has over a population over a Million People. Minneapolis, 45 suburbs, 40 employs. We really focus on drug courts. I make changes when i got in there. I think senator sessions would like some of them. Some of them are violent cases because i didnt think they belong to there. There. I think it strengthened the drug court and use of the drug court. You know the stats, director, three out of every four people graduate from these programs are not arrested again. 75 success rate compared to 30 in the traditional system. Saving taxpayers an average of 6000 per person. And asked attorney general holder at our last doj oversight hearing about expanding the use of drug course at the federal level. So thats what i want to start with, with you. How you see this good work and how we could more effectively lower costs, better rehabilitate offenders and can also reduce our crime rates like weve seen in our state. Thank you, senator. I do agree that drug treatment program, we see a lot of benefits from the behavior that we are put to witness with the programs. We have the residential drug abuse row graham as was the nonresidential and we also offer drug education in all of our institutions. As far as a policy issue relative to drug courts, i am not the expert for those types of discussions. And i doesnt know that within the department there are many individuals who are more appropriate to have those discussions on policy issues for the department that could eventually benefit any reductions with our population on the front and as well as the backend. You do see it as a way now with the exit of the drug course of reducing some of the numbers in the prison . I believe the evidence shows that thats very possible. You mentioned the Residential Drug Abuse Program and how thats proven effective in reducing recidivism and decreasing institutional misconduct. How many inmates are enrolled in the program . What kind of return on investment do we get . For inmates to participate in the Residential Drug Abuse Program, for every dollar we invest, theres a 2. 69 savings. The total number of individuals with participating in Residential Drug Abuse Program of treatment right now is 16,000 inmates. We would like to see that number increase which we, again as i stated, noted its very productive. For our overall plan to increase the number, of the programs we can have something of the maximum number of inmates participate. Lets hear your view on inmates good time credit for participating in the intensive recidivism reduction program, or increasing the number of opportunities for inmates to earn these credits through educational or vocational programs. The department as well as the administration have continued to support these legislative proposals. I definitely concur and believe that they are important. When you look at the additional seven days of the conduct on that can be added to an inmates credit for time off the sentence because right now they are receiving 47 days, it is very beneficial to the safety and security of the facility. Its not winning it would be rewarded something for not having good behavior. And it helps us. For the inmates, we believe we can ultimately get a large number of inmates to participate in evidencebased programs to receive up to 60 days off of their term by participating in more than 180 days within a calendar year the programs that you mentioned. We believe its beneficial and it desolate ultimately helps with Public Safety. The majority of the inmates are going to be released and being exposed to the programs only enhance. One last question. In your testimony you acknowledge the tragic death of two federal Bureau Prison employees. I know all of us extend our sympathy to their families. What do you think can be done to improve safety for prison staff while on or off duty . What we need to do to improve safety of our staff is, it comes down to a resource issue. We are doing more with less. The staff are very proud to take on this because this is why theyve elected to serve their country by working in corrections. But when youre dealing with large numbers on any given day throughout this country, we have one officer working in our Housing Units providing oversight for 150 plus inmates. We have recreational staff are doing their best to show the inmates are actively involved with recreational activities, and you can have in excess of five an inmates being supervised by one person. So we are doing everything we can to put the resource aware they need to be, but you can only imagine if theres any type of disturbance within the institutions and you only have a small number of staff to respond, the staff are putting their lives on the line every single day. And this is why the programs are very important and we believe its up to us to do what we can with limited resources and the capacity that we have to maximize the situation to put us in the best possible situation to effectively manage our prisons. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thank you, mr. Same as, for joining us today but as ive expressed many times on previous occasions, in my view the federal government has been for decades in acting and socially enforcing far too much substantive criminal law. As a result of that, our federal prison system is overcrowded and its extremely costly. As weve heard today, the bureau of prisons Consent Decree significant share of the overall budget of u. S. Department of justice. Using resources that might otherwise be used more effectively in other areas to enhance the Public Safety in the United States. Although long mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses dont tell the whole story of the increasing overcrowded federal prison population, i think they do share a very significant part of the problem of overcrowding. I think we have to look very closely at our current scheme of mandatory minimum sentences as a result. And i think we have to do that to see whether incremental changes can safely and effectively be made to these sentences to reduce the federal prison population and to reduce costs, while at the same time preserving, if not enhancing, Public Safety in america. The legislation that ive cosponsored with senator durbin, the smarter sentencing act, s. 1410, we decrease mandatory minimum sentences for certain categories, drug offenders. So my first question for you, mr. Samuels, is whether this type of legislation should succeed as its widely expected to do if it were passed in helping to decrease the federal prison population over the next few years or over the decade or so following its enactment. What would that do for you . What would that do for the bureau of prisons as far as making it easier for you to do your job if we succeeded in reducing the overcrowding problem . Thank you, senator lee. I would start by saying that i agree that reform needs to take place. The specifics of the various bills that are being considered is something that, again, needs to be considered by the appropriate individuals within the department relative to policy issues. To your question what would it do to help the bureau of prisons, any reduction within our population that ensures that theres no threat to Public Safety obviously helps us effectively run our institution. And we are not dealing with the competitive issues within the population when youre trying to do as much as you can to stretch resources within the environment. Because the increase within the population which Research Shows that when you continue to add more and more inmates, the propensity for violence increases and it puts our staff and inmates to include the surrounding communities where our institutions are located at risk. Two of their biggest concern i would have to imagine would be one, prison safety, safety within the prison, safety of the prisoners themselves and other personnel. And also, the effectiveness of your programs to minimize recidivism. I would imagine that reducing the overcrowding problem within have a positive effect on your ability to manage both of those concerns. Yes, sir. What programs do you have in place currently to ensure that those released from prison, including those who might be released earlier than they would otherwise be as result of changes like these, what programs do you have in place to make sure that they dont present a threat to Public Safety once they are released to . As i mentioned earlier, we have numerous Cognitive Behavioral Therapy programs that we have modeled after rdt because of the Research Showing that these thats a programs are very effective. We are constantly encouraging inmates to participate in these programs and where every successful on many occasions in doing so. But i would share with the subcommittee here to date that we really need to have some type of incentive to get more inmates involved in these programs, this is why i continue to support and i believe that the sentencing credits that could be provided similar to what we have with rdat, any of the individuals know that when you participate in trying to them they can get up to a year offer since. But at the same time they are being exposed to the program and they receive the benefit which ultimately helps them with the transition from prison back into the community. And if we can have an incentive to entice the other inmates within the population who did not have a Substance Use disorder and it increases the number of inmates who can be exposed which over a period of time when the majority of individuals are going to be released, this will help the Public Safety. Okay, thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. You mentioned that the average cost to incarcerate a person in our system is about 29,000. Is there a difference in average costs in a womens prison facility . For the female facilities, it depends on the number, the mission, but typically the average is going to be the same. Typically. Yes. To the women in these facilities have the same access to the kinds of programs that are available to men and the mail facility . Yes. There is a growing number of women in our prison population. You cited some data in your testimony. Does your data reflect defenses and recidivism for men and women, and also do have evidencebased programs that work better for men versus women in terms of success and re integrating into society . I think you talked about one program, specifically for women resolve but then you share with me if you do that kind of Data Collection that distinguishes men and women and how they are treated and whats successful . For the programs that we operate, we are following typically one model throughout the bureau. Now, we have not collected any specific data to establish between female inmates versus male inmates to identify whether one particular program doesnt work better based on male or female. Why is that . Why is that . Why do you not have that kind of data . Do you think the are no differences, or you just havent done it . I wouldnt i would say for this discussion that there are no differences, but we dont have specific programs specifically targeted for the female inmate population, which this would be consistent with all corrections, not just within the federal system. I would definitely take your question back to have discussions internally with the bureau to include with my colleagues if there is something thats bee being done or if youe unaware of something specifically for the female inmate population, relative to the cbt programs that we provide. My understanding is that as a general proposition, women are in prison for drug crimes and not Violent Crimes. So thats a very different profile than a dangerous felon in our prison system. So i would ask that you take into consideration those kind of factors as well as i think that there may be some programs that will be better enable women to reintegrate when they are released than would work for men. And i believe that there are some states to recognize those kinds of factors and planned their programs in a way that reflects that kind of understanding. I think its very important. Because as more and more women attend to still be the caregivers to their families are incarcerated, that has a lot of ramifications to their families, their children, we entry, all of that. Senator, i have recently put together a whartons Advisor Group specifically for the funeral inmate population to look at what weve done historically and to focus on the types of concerns that you are raising. To make sure that if there any best practices, any we should consider that we are moving and its our vision to ensure theres a balance on both sides. So the female inmates within our care are receiving appropriate attention and care relative to the issues that youve raised. Because my impression is generally that there have been fewer programs for women and our prison system, both in the state level and federal level. And i understand that your responsibility is on the federal side. Thank you very much. Thank you, senator. Thank you very much, director samuels to we appreciate you being here today. We appreciate the support for our joint legislative executive efforts going forward, the bureau of prisons is going to continue to show, we will opposite continue to call on you for information and on your staff or expertise. And we look forward to that relationship as we proceed. You are excused on the committee. We thank you for your testimony, and ill call up the second panel. I i welcome our panel. Matt delisi is from iowa. The Ranking Member represents iowa, and the Ranking Member hae asked that the professor testify first is a chance to hear his r constituents testimony before just returned to his work within the finance committee. Order a so without objection will go oua of usual order and begin with professor delisi believers ask all the witnesses to please stand and be swornpl. [witnesses were sworn in] thanyou. Thank you, and please be seated. Professor delisi is a professor and coordinate of criminal c justice studies with the centera for the study of violence at iowa state university. Is the editor in chief of the juice justice and the author of nearld two and 50 scholarly articles ia and received a followup or froo academy of cruel Justice Sciences and as a member of thed American Association for the advancement of science and association for psychological science and would like to make any further recognition of professor delisi . You he saidi i gt uess you said all but io say welcome. Very well. Well go professor delisi, please proceee and then will go to director wetzel and down the line spent tha thank you very much for thisnk opportunity. Also reducing the cost of tha policy recommendations significant neglect the antia sociology of criminal offenders and the likely recidivism that would result from large scale at release of inmates. The majority of this has been tested the Behavior Risk noted by the federal prisoner with quantitative estimates of additional crime that could result from the policy recommendations. The report promulgates the notion that drug offenders are somewhat innocuous and that their antisocial beaveir isfa, c limited to drug sales l cri introduced. In fact,e criminal offenders an all criminal offenders tend to be very versatile in theirdrug behaviors, thus a person sense for drug crimes is also likely to property crim