Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20131203 :

CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings December 3, 2013

They are created by the various political social economic environments. In other words, the lone wolf terrorist do not inherit from other states. They are a part of our society and subjects of the political and economic ideology and religious environments. In other words, many of them share values through the technology through the website and so forth. Some operate on one basis of a single attack and some operate on multiple attacks. There were a number of studies that were developed over the years that we are trying to follow on a daily basis and i think that it requires a great deal of interest in terms of radicalization and International Society tries to understand what can be done to deal with it. So ultimately the discussion would provide i think the initial context for the discussion and the first speaker as i mentioned is spike bowman who has a very rich background in the government and in the Academic Community and taking one course now sco w. And one for the interns he is a student in the class so to be paired with a class tomorrow. I think of spike is a very broad experience in the government and counterintelligence, and also various positions in the fbi come and they indicated that he has an academic background, so we are looking forward to his remarks. And then we are going to follow up with our other panelists and help them to develop a discussion. Spike, would you mind coming up here . I will let you get by. Okay. I first started thinking about lone wolf terrorism right after 9 11. I was the deputy counsel for the National Security affairs at the fbi and we really didnt know a lot about al qaeda at that point in time that we began to look at it very quickly. Among the things we learned was that there were a number of Training Camps being run by al qaeda in afghanistan. The more that we looked at it, the more that we realized that while al qaeda was trained in the camps in afghanistan, and all full of other people have gone through their not necessarily affiliated with al qaeda and not necessarily to intend going out on a terrorist plane but perhaps going for training to do something later on. So, we began to think about what would happen if one of those people began to decide to do something unattached, unaffiliated. The reason i made a difference is because the way that we looked at terrorists and spies and so forth in the United States was largely through the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act, which is operated by the secret court. It had secret warrants for wiretaps and physical searches. But the predicate for the fisa warrant is that the target is either a foreign power or the agent of a foreign power. If you have a person acting on his own it is hard to tap that person into the agency of a foreign power. One of the things i did a fairly soon after is i suggested that perhaps we could have an amendment to the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act to look at this Single Person that caused a lot of consternation because it did change the way that we thought about this from the start. Eventually, we did get an amendment to the act for that purpose but we also begin to realize that the things that might happen, too. One of the things that had us thinking along a slightly different line is soon after but for an interview with for an intelligence had studies on their part of the world, one of the startling things that came out of that is they didnt find a lot of ideologues. They found a lot of people that seemed to be having an affinity for violence, just wanted to do something violently. And as a consequence, they started looking at those individuals and they actually did disrupt not only in the netherlands but other countries as well some things that were beginning to happen in the planned to happen simply because they were focused on these individuals. Well, we began to look at that, and then another thing happened. In 2005, we had the British Underground bombings, and we began to look at that point and we thought weve got people in the country that as they can tend to come as something we didnt focus on that much past Timothy Mcveigh. Now we are starting to think we might have people that are not affiliated with al qaeda or something similar. We might have people in our own communities that want to do violence. So we began to think more and more that there might be some other thing to do about this. When i testified in 2002 in congress that asked for the foreign Intelligence Surveillance act be amended, i have to say that congress was very skeptical. They were not really ready to accept the fact we might have these other types of individuals in the United States and it took a period of time for the congress to come around. They eventually did, but the other thing that has happened through the years is that we have fairly well decimated the ability of the al qaeda type of affiliates to carry out a large complex type of observation that 9 11 represented. Could it happen again . Yes. But what is more likely . Hearing going to give you a prediction. In the United States and the other countries as well, future terrorist acts are less likely to be well organized and we saw with 9 11. They are likely to be less complex. They are less likely to succeed. They are less likely to be as lethal if they do succeed. They are going to be more numerous. And in all likelihood, i believe that they will be mostly conducted by citizens or longterm residents of the United States. Why do i say that . Its what the sequence of events that i just laid out sort of points us to words. If we stop and take a look at what has happened in the United States since 9 11, we have had over 50 terrorist according to fbi reporting over 50 terrorist attempts defeated and weve also had a number of terrorist associated persons arrested and of those that have a link to the al qaeda type of philosophy more than half of them were United States citizens. 35 of them were born in the United States. 60 of them had a College Degree and 60 of them were either working or in school. These were not the people that we were looking at right after 9 11. These were not the discontented who were going to camps in afghanistan to learn how to make an explosive to try to learn tactics or maybe learn how to shoot a gun. Who knows. But basically we are looking at today and entirely different cadre of people than years ago. What bothers me is i dont think we are looking at it hard enough. I dont think that we are as focused on the lone wolf single individual that might have no affiliation with anybody who might not even an ideologue who might just want to go blow something up because of discontent. Again you can think back of the example of Timothy Mcveigh that we have seen others in the United States like this as well as i think that is what the future holds for us. I think the way that you described it, there is no doubt about your analyst is at the basis of only u. S. Citizens or permanent residences, but also that come to study on a visa or come in illegally as well, but it is also characterized in the European Countries as well the terrible tragedy in norway in the name of some secular ideologies. So i think this is the wave of the future. Now im going to have another perspective to discuss the issue after kumar whom i introduced earlier and he is teaching also Georgetown School of service and specializes on the financial aspects as well as south asia on the case study and that particular region. So, i asked him to bring in some of his findings and perspectives and then we are going to have a third speaker to focus on the weapons of mass distraction. Would you please come up here . Many thanks to yonah and mike for having me here. Its an honor to be here at such a distinguished panel. And i think the previous speaker, spike, for the excellent presentation. Essentially, im going to run through some important aspects of global terrorism as well as others. When we talk about what is the lone wolf care of some terrorism on person plans and executes and finances it and the reality is in the context of political terrorism by the radicalization process, the single individual that may perpetrate the act but under the radicalization name or than likely not be radicalized through either the group or the army experience or what have you. So that is a distinction that one has to be very clear about. And the kneejerk response is rt because the single individual at you may be kind of a lone wolf terrorist. He may not be. And he may be a member of terrorist organization, some previous interface in the organization, the radicalization process and some travel in the terrorist camps like for example if you look at the boston bomb or one of them had traveled to central asia. So it is hard to call a person that travels a lone wolf terrorist because he was indoctrinated along with the internet of course. Secondly, it has been eluted to buy yonah and spike as well one of the types of the lone wolf terrorist could be secular and it could be religious, could be single issue such as the eu and the bomber unibomber there could be the anthrax attacker in 2001. He had a criminal intent. And its hard. It has to be one or the other. It could be a mismatch of the categories. What actor is going to be for the lone wolf terrorism . For example, Timothy Mcveigh went through radicalization after his experience in the first gulf war and after that. He developed such a loathing for the federal government and he wasnt for states rights. You have all these basketcase folks who may be radicalized in one of many ways. Then that are what we call stochastic terrorism, which are basically folks like bin laden and others with and exhorting their al qaeda presence to engage in lone wolf attacks. That could be what we call a really stochastic process where the perpetrator of the act, what some call missiles actually. What do terrorist organizations achieve using lone wolf care . Im going to focus on little more from here on out on terrorist organizations and how they may use or utilize lone wolf attackers. What do terrorist organizations achieve using global terrorism . To our lowcost, greater impact, require no planning. They are difficult to predict and protect and take care just measures against. It is this aspect of plausible to 90 building. If you look at the mumbai bombings, initially in 2008, this is topical because we are celebrate the fifth anniversary of the heinous attacks in mumbai, exactly on november 26, 2008, when the 60 our carnage began really. Initially the news report said its an outward call. Then there was then we discovered they were trying to engage with the call plausible deniability. Its an offshoot. Then it could be threats within the mod team for a local criminal gang in india. This has happened before because last car operator to look at david, surveillance of the mumbai targus and 2007 easy and lone wolf terrorist for pc kind of sent their to act as a lone wolf terrorist to make you believe that this is an individual whos perpetrating acts on his own. Theres a case of another who was involved in the plot to survey the Financial Institutions in new york and new jersey and in washington. And then there is this need to meet the requirement on the part of a global terrorist to meet with other members of the crew. And his way the terrorist organizations engage in plausible do not duplicate its of the individual. I told you its the individual who is involved. Last but not the least, what is lone wolf attacks as far as terrorist organizations go, they show would be terrorists or would be lone wolves that heres one guy who is committed this act, all of you can go and do the same thing. Thats what alawlaki has been saying, exhorting would be al qaeda sympathizers and radicals to lone wolf care. Importantly enough, what kind of thstrategies of counters and strategies can be used . It could be communities where civilians would be involved, easier said than done but i think this washington metro bus, you know, Say Something if you see something. Thats a very typical example of what can be done because the lone wolf terrorist at least i would consider a lone wolf terrorist someone who executes and finances and plans the attack, but is radicalized by an external agent, i. E. , a terrorist organization. Whatever enablers there might be, the internet, military, previous travel, previous contract contact, part of a sleeper cell, what have you. Then there is the need for federal, state and local kind of coordination and information sharing and is trying to get all these would be attacks in the blood. Then theres monitoring internet usage. With what powers can the government monitor the internet . It can and should because whatever is taking place still is brewing over the internet. What kind of messaging, checking out how does a would be lone wolf terrorist finance his terrorist plots. What kind of interactions does he have . Then there is this question of Rapid Response. For example, it the norwegian authorities would have respond to the first attack of anders breivik, guinness difficult to predict what hes going to do, but them if they had only responded to that and he may not have predicted, he may have perpetrated the Second Attack which was the more heinous one with larger casualties actually. Then there is the question of investigating not just lone wolf terrorist attacks of the botched plots as well. Theres so much more one can learn from a failed plot. The underwear bomber. Theres so much more one can learn in terms of a plot thats been foiled or botched. What kind of implications does lone wolf terrorism have for Counterterrorism Measures . Its difficult to detect and, therefore, an orthodox strategies are called for calm including some with once i mentioned to me decreasing. The strategies need to be designed to prepare for, respond and prevent the terrorist attacks. And its difficult to make out when were doing this whether the attack is by a criminal or by a secular terrorist or group of terrorists. So its difficult to really pay to make the strategy to kind of address the potential plot, or potential perpetration of terrorist attacks. There are obviously issues of whether lone wolf terrorist attacks are more possible in developed societies versus developing societies. In the context of south asian nations, particularly their information sharing methods, their monitor measures are not as good as ours, or our other allies in the developed world. So there is a thinking amongst intelligence and Law Enforcement circles that its harder to perpetrate a plan, a lone wolf terrorist plot come in a place like india or any other country in south asia than there is in the developed world. There is an opportunity to study whats going on in terms of the lack of lone wolf terrorist attacks in other developing societies. The real possibility is weve seen time in and time out of terrorist attacks here. Lastly i just want to be, im going to talk about radicalization. I want all of us to look at the carefully, what does radicalization into. What does al qaeda can we say bin laden is gone, al qaeda is the essentially damaged, we are kind of a little bit obsessed with the organization of al qaeda. The organizational structure of al qaeda. There is the ideology of course which we have been able to do much about. Deradicalization imprisons and narrative for example, are important strategies to employ. Then there are the outside movements which are still intact. If you like it the ideology look at the ideology or movement of al qaeda to grab local separatist and then in the kashmir region or the rebellion in malik, or in other parts of the world, or the separatists cause in south asia, i. E. The taliban. That coupled with the fact that there is increased interaction amongst affiliates of al qaeda points to the would be or potential lone wolf terrorist part of this movement. There is some connection either ideological or in person, or both. So its difficult again to really spring to a judgment that, okay, if you have a single individual, then its an only individual act. I would reckon that radicalization in some strange sense is a kind of Material Support as well. And most people wouldnt recognize it. Weve got to go beyond the obvious. What appears on the surface may not be true or entirely true. Its good to dig deep and look at more important social aspects of radicalization, and a lot more can be done in terms of engagement with the imprisoned individual, for example, or to prevent someone whos been in prison for criminal activity not to become a terrorist to address either through education means or kind of work on their employment, future implement outside prison. Because a lot of literature deals with recidivists and folks have been left out of on time of day and are perpetrating attacks in aqap or in other outfits, either in syria or yemen or elsewhere. Well, thats it for now. Thank you. Our next big risk olson, has every rich expense as well consulting, advising governments and industry and the Academic Community. Particularly related to the nature of the threat, and i remember very vividly after the attack in tokyo, which was mass destruction, that you were kept quite busy to make sense out of that period and i really think that with your very wide experience, is to share with us your thinking about various scenarios and possibilities, the use of what we call some, some sort of weapon of mass destruction, whether chemicals, sarin, or anthrax in some cases that we have seen in the United States and abroad related to deaths potential. So, kyle, if you please come up here. Thank you. The lone wolf terrorist, he is obviously a subject of great interest, great concern. You through several questions out right at the beginning, thank you. You asked whether not the future for terrorism in general but certainly the lone wolf terrorist, or religious something worse than 9 11 . An event on that scale. You asked a question about whether society could survive and you as al

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