Consistency. Basically the west and the United States and germ anyway, if they are on you are on the right side of the history, i tend to agree and its our problem that we cannot cope with the modern world. The russian problem. But in you might call it technical terms or in day withs day term daybyday terms there should be more responsibility and consistency in the west. Not necessarily do something but if you are not prepared to do, dont say you are. We havent solved the ukraine issue. But i want to move on to something that the ambassador put on the table, which is that if we want to get to audience questions as what does this mean . This a really fundamental term or shift in the relationship of nato with russia . Are we going to say this is one of those hinge points . Well, the depend on what russia does. It takes to to tango, obviously, but from any point of view, is a said before, we dont want to close doors. We kept the nato Council Operational and still want to cooperate with russia as soon as we can men circumstances allow and dealing with all the oglobal challenges hike afghanistan or counterterrorism where were constanting withdos youre talking about to departmentalizing the point im trike to make here in the start run we have no short run we have no choice but to face the challenge. So, yes in the short term, deterrence and reassurance, if you like, defense of europe, that has to be the authority. But we are mindful here at nato that the world is not going to stop because of the ukraine problems. We dont have, if you like, any less chaos in syria or problems in the middle east, terrorism spreading across north africa, these things are still with us, so, yes, we have to deal with this issue of reassurance to the Baltic States and we still have to work with our partners Prime Minister, Prime Minister, what would you carry on as well. So we have to be a security organization, which is big enough and grown up enough as with several problems at once. What too you think, mr. Prime minister, this means in terms of where nato goes from here and dealing with russia . We we didnt solve or come up with a solution to ukraine. Afraid we not go beyond the decision we already taken by nato, and theres no good answer without finding out, what i said before. We cannot simply neglect. We cannot forget about the fact that already took and this is very misfortunate. I generally need in the need to Work Together closely with russia. That we share a lot of common interests, and i believe that the present russian policy is suicidal, against the interests of russia, and i would like to overcome that situation. But unfortunately, there are some conditions that must be done by them. They have to get out of ukraine. Have to stop interfering with Domestic Affairs of other countries. You should not forget that in europe we have elaborated regular layings, procedures, guaranteeing the rights of minorities in council of european and so on. Russia has should good to european institutions in russian speaking minorities, et cetera. But as i said, we cannot accept the actual situation in ukraine and i do not know what is the solution for that, because mr. Putin announce historical new doctrine and its sending back will stepping back will me failure, and also to address ordinary russians, to make something to change the chauvinistic view by the population. They should understand at it always ended in total catastrophe of the states and the nations. You wanted to jump in here. I think we have in historical precedent. You look back in terms of periods of tension between nato and russia and it was most serious during the conflict in former ewing slav ya and during the yugoslavia and during the russiangeorgia war. There were discussions all over the capitals in europe and the United States and russia, that we may have got returned to a cold war or be returning to another cold war. We managed to move past those periods because of a vast array of critical shared security interests. Ukraine is more serious. This is more difficult situation. The stakes for russia, for one thingare much greater in the ukrainian case. But im hopeful and when i hear jamie shea say we need to pursue this consult tatetive bodies and the natorussia council to engage and work through these problems with russia. Russias position in europe and Global Security is critical. I think they are major power, and its important that we understand some of the other major Strategic Issues that are at stake in this relationship, in arms control in counterterrorism, weapons proliferation, regional conflicts, the future of the circumstances in the middle east and the continued outcome from the revolutions taking place in that area, and if we have the United States, europe, and russia, working in a competitive or enemy sort of approach in dealing with those situations, i think it could be very grim for the future. So. Its worth trying. It wont be easy. We should expect setbacks but we have to keep, i think, longterm vision and not look at this ins just in terms of short term and immediate. I dont think its in interest of our nations to see the return of the colored war. Im not hearing anyone would use the term containment. Im hearing elements of that. For instance, that europe should diversify its energy sources. That ways be found to not need russia so much. What would you say to that, ambassador . Do you think something fundamental is happening here . I say this with no disrespect, another georgia situation where after a year or so we look the other way and move on. Its just not top of maybe we didnt take events in georgia seriously enough. But that is a question also for historians to take a look at. My own view is that what we are seeing is a policy of revisionism. That is what you call that. Placing in question what is. Essentially i learned that there are two kinds of leaders. In the world. So, theres one category of leaders that takes what is and tries to create a better future. Good example of that is yu of singapore. If german leaders postwar had behaved or were behaving now in the way the current russian leadership is behaving, we would still be fighting with poland, we would be fighting with france, and we would claim that some polls who speak german are actually germans and do deserve the protection of the mayoran armed forces if something happens in poland we dont like. I mean, this is chaos. This is awful. So im not one who is going to try to minimize the dimensions of the problem that were facing. But i also totally agree with kozarov, i hope everybody listens hundred he speaks about how important consistency is. Consistency is very close to credibility, and whatever we say has got to match with what we do. I totally agree with you. I think, in response to your question, what about nato . Well, we are going to need to take a fresh look at how important the core function of nato is to our countries. The core function in the collective defense has gotten more or less forgotten a little bit because we thought it was no longer really necessary. We used to say germany was surrounded by friends and everything is wonderful. Obviously we need to take a fresh look because oland is our immediate neighbor, part of our club, our union, and pole pollland has a bored irwith ukraine and if theres chaos in ukraine and beyond it affects our very own security and that of all of nate at the and the i as well. So, yes, i think there must be a comprehensive review of our priorities, both in the e. U. And in nato, but lets not do it, if i may say so with foaming at the mouth. Lets do it cool, and lets do it also, always, in with having in mind consistency. On that thought were going to questions from the audience. If you just briefly give your name and affiliation. You know the rule, a question, not a statement. Thank you. From George Washington university. We talked about in april of 2008 the nato summit decided to not extend membership action to ukraine and georgia, and within four months georgia was invaded. With hindsight, the word wisdom has been subpoena number of times today. Is it your view that things in not to extend protection to ukraine and georgia unwise . Just to get to all the questions does one want to volunteer to take that we lost jimmy shea. Im sorry. Theyre replacing the call. But well ill take that. I can take that question. Actually, jamie shea, tide you hear the question . I did. And i i did, yes. Im going to ask everyone to give a brief answer because we have a lot of hands up. Was it a mistake not to take in georgia and ukraine in 2008 . Well, no. Again, you cant take in countries that are not ready for membership and georgia and ukraine were then and still now still in preparation for membership, and that work continues. What nato has not done in the wake of the crisis is, first of all, lift the offer to georgia on ultimate nato membership if georgia meets can bees. But youre putting ukraine and georgia together is wrong. Ukraine is not seeking nato membership, even in the present crisis, it has not renewedy for nato. Russians were talking about nato as actually seeking to have ukraine as a member. Thats not the case. Were working with georgia but this is a deliberate process in preparation that has to go through. No. I dont believe that the nato decision was the reason. Unless russians at the time, president putin, but some kind of alibi or justification or some kind of smoke screen to simply carry out which were already there. Its a very its a good excuse but whether thats the real strategic motivation i have my doubts. Right here, sir in the red and blue tie. Thank you. Im benjamin, a retired american diplomat. My question goes to ambassadors opening remarks in which he talked about the dire consequences of not having had nato expansion. It seems to me that that suggests a lack of confidence in the ability of the west to muster sufficient economic assistance and investments to integrate and develop economies of Eastern Europe with the countries of the former soviet union. That seems to me the real tragedy. Wouldnt you agree . And your emphasis on massive economic assistants for ukraine now, means that we learned the lesson, but perhaps a bit late. Thank you. Do you want to comment on that . I can give very brief. Yes, i would tend to agree with you, and mind you, i dont speak on behalf of the German Government here. Dont i dont want to be misunderstood. I speak as a private citizen. I believe we did not pay enough attention to, also financially and economically, to the challenges of our eastern neighbors. We should have probably acted long before russia started to think about crimea or long before the maidan began to explode about how to help stabilize a country that has had a history now for two decades of not really making its way forward as we were hoping to. What was the other part of the question . I think [inaudible] okay, i think so, the gentleman in the blue sweater. The question is on the 25th 25th of may, we will have the european election. On the second day ukraine are supposed to have the referendum and president ial election. How do you think we could help them just to have free elections in all of ukraine with this situation . If i may. Ey. Believe we can do very little about Eastern Ukraine because, of course, the security situation will decide about the possibility to have any kind of elections there or not. In my opinion one of the targets of intervention, not to have elections at all, than to have the kind of pretext to question the results of elections in general. But in the rest of ukraine, there would be a lot of observers from european institutions, and they can expect fair elections. Yes, right here, the gentleman and then the lady behind him. Hi, im iris committees on Eastern Europe and russia and nato. Minister, when you first became foreign minister of the russian soviet federated social socialip lick, you laid out your plan so if the soviet union were unfortunately to break up you would prevent it from becoming a nuclear yugoslavia and i was stunned that you could imagine to achieve peace in such conditions, and i was more stunned you did achieve it. I think the entire world and the russian people owe you a great debt of gratitude for that achievement and you are not as honored as you welldeserve and history should note your important role, especially now when mr. Putin is beginning to assume the role of the milosevic and undo the tremendous work you did for your people. Thats not my question but die think you deserve that honor and appreciation. My question is about the lack of connected with words you brought up. Mr. Gorbachev when he was still president was discussing the unification of germany, and im not going to talk bet myth we promised nato would never move east, and ambassador matlock already refutessed that. Its a high. But gorbachev raced the notion should they become part of nato and the was poohpoohed. And then james baker later regretted that and said he should not have done that. He should have engaged gorbachev on that question. One of the first acts of the yeltsin government in december 1991 was to raise the question of nato membership. The Foreign Ministry later said it was a mistranslation but Foreign Ministry officials assured me at it was a true traps layings. They had to withdraw because it became a political embarrassment for yeltsin and you permanently. I wonder how much damage has bun done with our lack of with russia. First of all, i cannot agree more on your statement. Thank you so much. [laughter] and secondly, i agree with the assumption of your question, yes. Thats where i technically agree and cede the point of president putin when he says that we had what was it unclear. I would put it in a way, if you read my message, somebody publishes my memoirs, youll find it i am pro western in terms i want russia to become a western democracy, not only russian lead going to london or miami, but in as a diplomat and practitioner, i met with a lot of confusing signals from nato all the time, and even Prime Minister said, thats very interesting. The Prime Minister said they believe that partnership for peace was instead of membership. If they believed that in poland how much in russia in kremlin, are especially hardliners, tended to believe it when socalled declaration was signed by my successor, who was, of course, old kgb hand, and still is, and he i mean, by that time everything was lost. Every opportunity. The window was closed. For the west. But he believed that when he signed this fig leaf declaration of natorussian partnershippin 1997, 1998, which nato applauded for, he actually came home and said publicly that they promised him that under the declaration was the promise of nato not to expand to former soviet space. That is Baltic States. So, president putin, who still has him as his advisor, he tended to believe that he was deceived by the declaration. There is no we could not find any record of any promises to gorbachev that nato would not expand, for instance to eastern germany. We could not find member somebody find it but we have no record. We had no record of that. But gorbachev apparently seems to believe still today that he had such a promise, and president yeltsin believed he had the promise and they detail how he was led to believe that, that partnership for peace was instead of natonot a first step, which i knew because delbert and christopher and my western european colleagues, spent time to explain that to me. While they failed to tell that to president putin to president yeltsin at that time. That brings me back to my point. Its not enough for the west to be on the right side of history. Its important, but they should speak in clear terms. Thats what russians deserve. Thats what putin deserves. That is what Russian Parliament deserves. Thats what ukrainian people in particular today because they are suffering. They are in the war. So, they deserve very, very clear message and the message which needs to end because somebody whispers something to somebody, you know . Somebody behinds that, yes, we dont go very far in giving protection from whatever there is sub sub versesive operations and the event does not happen, that might spell in blood because people start fighting, believing there is somebody behind them like those socalled prorussian militia, they are fighting there believing that the red army stands ready on the border, which is probably true. So, i tend to believe its true. So, that is one thing. The other thing, if you promise something to people and you fail, better not promise. They will do themselves. Im pretty sure that russian people havent said its final word yet. There will be a democratic revolution or continuation of democratic process in russia sooner or later. Maybe after the old good a little bit down because petro dollars can buy everything including former chancellors. I think we have time so, we will do it ourselves but dont deceive people. I think we have time i was good together say for one but lets take two if you boast ask your question and get the panel to address them. So the young lady there and the woman here in blue. I imlaura. My question is, in light of the ukraine crisis it has pointed to the weakness in the security plan of the west and of nato and it also indicated that russia still has influence in many of the countries in the caucus caucuses and Eastern Europe. So what should nato do to ensure the ensure and reinforce the territoryat integrity of countries like ukraine and georgia who have proven they are in fact nato allies. And the second question as well. Apparently russia has called for u. N. Security Council Meeting today to discuss ukraine. Me question is very simple. What can they hope togyn from this move . Apparently the u. S. Doesnt support it. Who would like to tackle these two questions first . Jamie . Yes. On the first question, we have to be clear, when it comes to military the security guard, the article 5 republic of nato, which is why countries join nato in order to have that. So ukraine is not a nato ally. Its true its a partner and very close partner and in fact participated in nearly in fact all of natos operations, including afghan, and therefore were treating the partnership seriously. In answer to a previous question we have teams at the moment in ukraine, helping with defense reform, defense prestructuring, with reform of the Television Servic