In addition, career investigators at the department of justice also looked into these claims. They also found, and i quote again, no evidence that any official involved in the handling of the tax exempt applications or irs leadership attempted to obstruct justice, into quotation. Its no wonder then that we have read reports of speaker ryan doing his best to make certain this measure never reaches the floor of the house, as Speaker Boehner did before him. Its also not a surprise that many in the republican conference have been critical of the tactics that forced this hearing. Chairman boost the need for the subcommittee on tax policy has argued that this hearing is a waste of time and and potentially damaging to our priorities. He told reporters last week, if we do this is going to further delay the investigation. I think its time to move on, into quotation. Senator orrin hatch, the chairman of the Senate Finance committee, has said that there simply no interest in impeachment activity in the United States senate, where a twothirds vote would be required for any conviction. When asked about commissioner koskinen, senator hatch and said, we have a very different experience with him. We can have our disagreements with him, but that doesnt mean that there is an Impeachable Offense. And he added, for the most part hes been very cooperative with us your to summarize, mr. Chairman, the proposed articles have been debunked, the investigation itself, by independent investigators. The resolution faces stiff bipartisan opposition in the house, and even worse odds in the United States senate. There are precious few working days left in this congress. I am personally disappointed that we plan to spend not just today but an additional day in june discussing these unsubstantiated claims. If its at all possible, chairman goodlatte, please consider returning the second day to do substantive work of this committee. In any event, i urge you to lead us past this distraction quickly and back to the work of some actual benefit to the American People. And i thank you for the time and i yield back. I yield back. The chair thanks the gentleman. Without objection all other members open status will be made a part of the record. We welcome our distinguished witnesses today, both of whom are members of the House Judiciary Committee but as is our custom if you would please rise, we will begin by swimming in. [witnesses were sworn in] thank you very much. Please be seated and let the record reflect that both witnesses responded in the affirmative. I would not begin by introducing todays witnesses. The first witness is the honorable jason chaffetz, who has been a member of the House Judiciary Committee since first coming to congress in 2000. Representative district of utah is a member of the judiciary subcommittee on courts, intellectual property and internet, and the subcommittee on crime, terrorism, Homeland Security and investigations. Since 2015 he has served as chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. Our next witness is the honorable ron desantis, since being elected in 2012, he has served on the judiciary, Foreign Affairs and oversight and Government Reform Committees. He is a the chairman of the Oversight Committees National Security subcommittee and the vice chairman of the Judiciary Committee subcommittee on the constitution and civil justice. Welcome to you both. Your written testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety and ask each of you summarize your testimony in the time that you are a lauded. To help you stay within that time there is a timing light on your table. You guys know how this works. When the light turns red signals your time has expired but given the importance of this we have a lot of additional time to give you and for the video that the chairman has brought with them as well. We will begin with chairman chaffetz. Welcome. Thank you, thank you. I appreciate your holdings assuring a joint belgians and to the Ranking Member conyers i enjoy a good working relationship with you, and i enjoyed your friendship and expect that to continue in the future and i appreciate the discussion today. Also want to note and thank chairman isa, chairman when much of this happening to me these things are happening and to his good work and tenacious approach to this, it was an important step and wouldnt be here today quite frankly without the good work and leadership of darrell issa. This is really a simple case in my mind. When congress ask you a question, youre expected to give a truthful answer. When Congress Issues a subpoena, compliance is not optional. Imagine if the taxpayer failed to comply with an irs summons or subpoena. What would they do to you . If they asked you for those materials come youre expected to produce those materials that if you dont they will take you to court and probably going to win. The irs targeting scandal was on american. They got the most powerful and feared entity in the United States. The First Amendment rights of citizens were trampled upon. In fairness mr. Koskinen as commissioner was not there for the initial targeting. He was brought in by president obama as the president obama as a turnaround artist, to work handinhand with congress to fix a problem. From my perspective he didnt fix the problem. He made it worse. They are been numerous hearings, letters and subpoenas issued a variety of committees. The irans is no stranger to its summons or a subpoena. They know exactly how this works. In fact, on average the issue about 66,000 summons and subpoenas per year and a half since 2010. Failure to abate a summit is a criminal violation under 26 usc section 7210 entries with it a fine of up to 1000 a year of imprisonment. If you dont comply the rs is going to come after you. They do prosky. The irs prevailed and 95 of those cases. Again compliance with a subpoena is not optional. Providing false testimony before Congress Comes with a consequence, at least it should. It is a crying. Mr. Koskinen did not tell the truth to congress. He provided false testimony failed to comply with the subpoena. He couldve presented evidence from being destroyed but he didnt, he didnt tell the truth about it. Americans are rightfully frustrated about the targeting scandal and the lack of accountability. But the case before us is about mr. Koskinen in what he did and did not do which promote deprived the American People of understanding what went wrong with their government. It also prevents us, congress, from fully fixing the problem and Holding People accountable. There cant be full accountability because the evidence was destroyed on mr. Koskinens watch and under a subpoena. The remedy given to us in the constitution is impeachment. Into the remedy designed for congress as a coequal voice. The senate gives its advice and consent on confirming residential appointments our founders in that constitution also gave us an opportunity to remove somebody if theyre not serving the best interests of the United States of america. This set has the opportunity to of a coequal voice, and who serves i in the upper as long aa deductible summit out of there for congress is impeachment. Hasnt been done often enough, and i think we must stand up for ourselves. To give some background im going to show video. Its about 10 minutes and it thn well get into the specifics of why think mr. Koskinen allies. From the woman at the center of the irs scandal involving where is lois lerner . Lois lerner. This was orchestrated, it was bland. Or possibly of criminal activity. Let the record indicate the witness did answer in the affirmative. On the advice of my counsel of respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and declined to answer that question. The irs and lois lerner, something weve only received his bits and pieces but what does a lookalike altogether . Lets rewind. In 2013 the i resonated to the selective intentional targeting of american taxpayers based on their political beliefs. This is lois lerner, the irs simply with the most knowledge of the intentional targeting but when called to testify she refused to quit the key witness unwilling to cooperate to get to the truth congress had to obtain and review documents. What followed was a sequence of obfuscation, construction and destruction of evidence by the irs which has left the American People with no real answers to why the First Amendment rights were violated. With rumors of targeting percolating come in june 2011, ways and means chairman dave camp since the first letter to the irs related to the allegations of the irs mistreatment of conservative groups. Nine months later in march 2012, chairman garrett isa and jim jordan of the House Oversight committee sent a letter to the irs requesting information. By may 2013 the irs commits to targeting, and chairman isa and jordan send yet another letter requesting information. The president acknowledges wrongdoing and pledges cooperation. This is inexcusable and americans are right to be angry about it. Our administrators to make sure were working hand in hand with congress to get to this thing fixed. By august the osha commission issued its first subpoena of the committee sent a letter to the secretary min money in of the obligation to preserve all emails. At this. 3 Congressional Committees, the Inspector General and the doj all have investigations under way. Fast forward nine months, after he condemned the targeting president obama state in of february 2014 interview that there is not a smidgen of its russian spin not even ask corruption. Not even a smidgen of corruption. On this investigation are still open. Even the investigation he ordered was not complete. So how did the president arrived at this conclusion . What did he become aware of in those nine months . Meanwhile, irans commissioner koskinen appears before multiple congressional panels promising to deliver all of lois lerners emails. Are you going to provide the documents to lois lerner . Yes spirit that were subpoenaed speak with yes. We are working very hard to get you the lois lerner emails. Are you or are you not going to provide all of lois lerners emails . We all already yes, we will do that. Until he starts backtracking spin the process redacted or there will be thousands of pages but it will not expect the conclusion of this investigation. In june 2014 he tells congress her emails could not be recovered. The actual hard drive after was determined it was dysfunctional and that was expert, no emails could be retrieved, was recycled and destroyed in the normal process. Spirit wasnt physically destroyed . Thats my understanding speed of what could happen for the commission to make such a statement . Remember the very first letter from chairman camp to the irs in june 2011 . Coincidentally lois lerner char driver crashes eight days later. What are the odds arent her hard drive within a week of a banquet from congress truly defies all odds. This hard drive will sit in the bin for nearly eight months until it is destroyed. Within weeks of an irs internal investigation commencing. Another coincidence. In april 2013, a month before getting to the targeting, lois lerner reminds colleagues to be cautious about we say in emails. On a sameday asks whether the answer of instant messaging system is our god. When told no, she responds, perfect. So back to may 2013, the irs just admitted to targeting and the president just promise cooperation. Lois lerner comes before congress and takes the fifth. On the exact same day, nearly two years after congress started asking questions, the irs find issues on august the order to all irs personnel. So with an admission of targeting subpoenas and investigations under way we returned to the president because the comments from february 2014. Not even a staging of corruption. On the same day the president makes those comments they irs discuss a problem, i cap and lois lerner seniors. Thousands of emails are missing in the targeting and 2011. Remember, are hard drive crashed. Staff recognizes the need to collect backup tapes that might contain emails from the relevant timeframe. But on march 4, 400 backup tapes containing emails are destroyed. This is 30 days after realizing there is a gap and eight months after the nondistrict court and the subpoena that Something Like this happen. The iq test was actually an unbelievable set of circumstances. How in the world with a preservation order and subpoenaed to they destroyed 422 . Its an unbelievable set of circumstances that would allow that to happen. Wasnt commissioner cost and appearing at the same time ushering members the irs would turn over all emails . If commission intentionally Mislead Congress . Tacitly suggests the irs new lois lerners emails had been destroyed at the time of the commissioners march test them. Remember the investigations. Besides congress and the doj, the ig was investigating aspects of the targeting scandal. Paster looking to lois lerners emails in june 2014. Heres their story. In june 2014 the ig opened its investigation into the missing lois lerner emails. Commissioner koskinen confirm lois lerners emails cannot be recovered and described the great lakes the irs has gone trying to find them spent we spent at last count 18 million responded without over 250 employees after his times involved and over 120,000 hours of effort devoted to it. Weve gone to great length. We have replaced the process we are producing her email twice just to make sure that no email was missing. We understand the import of this investigation. Weve gone to Great Lengths and spent an amount of money to make sure theres no email that is required that has not been produced. They didnt find any. The iges looking for backup tapes. Just 15 days into the investigation of the ig drives 1. 5 hours from d. C. To irs facility in West Virginia and ask for backup tapes use the back of lois lerners email accounts. They handed 744 tapes. Identified the 740 for backup tapes that met this criteria and took possession of all of the identified 740 for backup tapes. Attendance that no one ever asked but they been all a long. Irs in testimony and letters stated that left i quote no stone unturned, end quote to recovered emails. Was that true because we were able to recover emails what appears that statement so not true . I was officials testified that it quote from from the emails were unrecoverable come into court. Given recoverable data still exists on the tapes was a statement to speak with it would not a beauty be true. I quote no way to recover them. Them. Was vouchers because that would not appear to be true. We have established here today multiple incidents when the irs did not tell the truth. Throughout the course of investigation which went to the summer of 2015 the ig recovered 1000 unique emails that were never turned over by the irs. What did they do with these emails . To the best we can determine, they simply didnt look for those. So for the over 1000 emails we found in the backup tapes, we found in because we looked for them. They have been. They were under subpoena. What a coincidence. Remember those 422 tapes destroyed after the irs knew they were missing emails and after the nondescript order was in place at eight months after the subpoena . If those have been properly preserved, an additional 24,000 emails may have been recovered and maybe there would be answers. The American People will never know because the irs didnt do its job of preserving deprivation the way he was obligated to do. The ig concluded in its investigation that the irs neglected to search sources beyond lois lerners hard drive for emails. How many potential source of recovering her emails existed for the irs because we believe there were six. The hard drive, blackberry, backup tapes, server drives, the backup tapes for the server drives and then finally her laptops. How many of these to the irs search . We are not aware they search anyone in particular. They didnt look after blackberry. They didnt look at the servers or backup servers or her laptop. So what great links didnt really go to . Spin on the advice of my counsel of respectfully exercise my fifth amendment right and declined to answer that question. The bottom line, irs didnt fulfill its legal obligation to respond to congress. They didnt preserve information. They didnt try to find information. They misled congress four years. Theyre physically the American People in the dark about how the First Amendment rights were trampled upon. There must be accountability. Mr. Chairman, thank you for laying us to show that. I want to build on for the on his testimony, especially the statements made to congress on june and july of the year 2014. He cant explain why the irs wouldnt be able to produce thousands of lois lerners emails. At that point as if it had been in place since august 2013. The subpoena was reissued to mr. Koskinen after he was confirmed by the end of the subpoena had at its name on it for more than five months. On february 22014 super bowl sunday, they realized there was a problem with ms. Lerners emails and the some of them are missing from the irs production to congress. Ms. Duvall was counsel to the commissioner at the time and she was basically managing the irs production to congress. The next day and were third, ms. Duvall told our colleagues at the irs about the problem she had done. She told the i. T. People should talk to the people in the office of chief counsel. Should talk to the deputy associate chief counsel, and by the next day february 4, Thomas Kinkade of lois lerners hard drive had crashed back in 2011 and that was why many of her emails were missing. The irs knew in early february that there was a pro