Hours to go this afternoon, and now joining us here on our set in miami is Jeremy Scahill. Here he is, his most recent book, dirty wars the world is a battlefield. Mr. Scahill, earlier you were on a panel with dan balz and george packer, and one of the questioners asked you what do you see as the difference between how the Bush Administration and the Obama Administration approach the war on terror. Right. , i mean, i think first of all its great to be with you here on cspan and booktv. The bush with administration, i dont want to understate how atrocious i think that period was in American Foreign policy. It really was like murder incorporated. The destruction of iraq, the creation of the cia black sites, the idea that the Geneva Convention was [inaudible] the abu ghraib torture, using guantanamo, you could go on and on in characterizing it. So i dont want to get into a thing about is obama worse than bush. I covered those wars, i know what happened. Under president obama i think what we have is someone who has sort of rebranded some of the more egregious aspects of the bushcheney counterterror apparatus and i think has convinced himself that theyre waging a smarter war. So theyre relying on the drones much more than the Bush Administration did, using small team of coovert operators to conduct either kill or capture, and because guantanamo remains open despite the president s pledge to close it during his anytime office, i think that the Obama Administration doesnt want to capture too many people. So the killcapture program has generally become a kill program. And so at the end of the day, i think the enduring legacy for president obama on the issues i cover is that he made possible a continuation of the bushcheney counterterrorism apparatus. I imagine dick cheney fly fishing on his boat somewhere in wyoming, you know, sort of having a good chuckle and saying, you know, thank god obama was president because the next time were in power, were going to be able to continue doing this stuff. Host Jeremy Scahill, how large is the Drone Program in the u. S. Right now . Guest well, we have very Little Information about it. Lets remember that for almost the entire first term that president obama was in office, he never publicly mentioned the drones except on a google plus hangout in response to a question that a young person had asked him. No u. S. Officials would ever publicly own that the u. S. Even had a Drone Program. An american citizen was killed in a drone strike, this guy Anwar Alawlaki who was from the United States and went to yemen and was making these youtube videos, they killed him in 2011. 600 days later president obama gives a speech where he owns the fact that the u. S. Is doing this. There are secret bases in saudi arabia, oman, in east africa. My understanding is there also is a facility inside of yemen and, of course, in afghanistan drones are being flown across the border into pakistan. For some time there was also a drone base in pakistan that blackwater, the mercenary company, worked on as well and, of course, i wrote a book about that. Its a pretty large program. And to me, one of the things thats fascinating and devastatingly awful about the whole thing is that you can have guys who are trained drone pilots, you know, its not true that theyre unmanned. They very much are manned, but theyre manned remotely. You can have a drone pilot sitting in a trailer on a military base in the southwest of the United States, and he is ening in a engage anything a bombing in pakistan or yemen, and he gets in his suv at the end of the day, and he passes a sign saying buckle up, this is the most dangerous part of your day. Meaning that youre in a war zone theoretically, and youre dropping actual bombs on people, but you have a greater chance of being hit by another vehicle or having a Traffic Accident than you do in being killed in a war that youre engaged in. Host Jeremy Scahill is our guest, if you were watching booktv a little bit earlier, you saw him on the panel with dan balz and george packer. 202 is the area code, 5853890 in the east and central time zones, 5853891 for those of you in the mountain, pacific and beyond time zones. You can also send a tweet, booktv is our twitter handle. What is jsoc . The joint special Operations Command is the most elite team of commandos, soldiers, navy seals that has ever been created in the u. S. National security apparatus. It actually started in 1980s after the failed Hostage Mission in iran. Theres a whole other story that wasnt dealt with in argo, and that is the that the u. S. Military was authorized to go in and rescue the american hostages who had been taken when our embassy was seized in 1979. That operation was a disaster, and the navy was fighting with the army, the army was fighting with the air force, a helicopter crashed because of a sandstorm. And after that the pentagon and officials in the white house began discussing the creation of a sort of fullspectrum allstar team. And they originally acquired two what are called special missionsen units that could conduct missions that could conduct special operations. One was Navy Seal Team six. They wanted the soviets to believe they had a greater capacity than they did, and the other was the armys delta force. And for much of its existence it operated in the shadows in smallscale investigations, they were involved with the killing of pablo escobar, the colombian drug war. After 9 11 cheney and rumsfeld really came up with this idea. They thought that the cia was a liberal think tank which is hilarious to anyone who knows the history of the cia. But they really did believe that the cia had been melted down to, basically, a debased society under the clinton administration. And they felt that the militarys covert unit would be the best weapon that the u. S. Could use in a discreet global secret war. And so they injected jsoc with steroids. And general Stanley Mcchrystal ran jsoc for much of the bush era, and they began operating what was effectively a Global Hunting organization. And they werent hunting deer, they were hunting people. And they did their own interrogation. They have their own secret prisons. It was a whole parallel apparatus to what the cia had traditionally had sovereign realm other. Host how did you get involved in this line of work . Guest purely by accident. I went to university thinking i wanted to be a middle schoolteacher. And i discovered very soon after i got to the university what it meant to be on academic probation. I was a terrible student. So if im a horrible student, i dont know how im going to teach the youth of america to do anything. [laughter] its not that i was screwing around and out partying, i just wasnt very good at school. And, you know, i would say that i was enrolled at the university, not that i was attending the university. And after three years this was in wisconsin and after three years i decided that i wanted to do something in the real world, and i moved to this homeless shelter in washington, d. C. , the community for creative nonviolence which was just two blocks from the capitol at the time. You know, hundreds of people. And i started, i was mopping floors and cleaning toilets and taking a lot of veterans, actually, to doctors appointments. At that time for me the idea that a veteran was living in a homeless shelter was stunning to me, and i would talk to all of these old guys. And i started listening to a lot of talk radio. And i had never heard of this woman called amy goodman, and i heard her one day on the radio, and shes taking on newt gingrich, the speaker or of the house, and taking on rebels this the congo and talking about social justice struggles in the United States, on immigration issues, and i said i want to be a part of that. Some of the young folks who might be familiar with the terms im about to use, but i used a pen and what was called paper, and i wrote her something we used to call a letter and put it inside of whats called an envelope, and i licked this thing called a stamp anyway,. [laughter] i want to do anything for you if i can. If you have a dog, ill walk your dog or feed your camp. And then i started going to events. She never responded. I was stalk her, basically, not in a creepy way, and i think she had to decide whether to get a restraining order or let me volunteer. So she let me volunteer, and i learned journalism as a trade. Real reporters would ask me to help them edit their pieces, so i learned by p watching journalists who i really admired engage in the trade. And once i started going international, going places like iraq, a fire just caught inside of me, and i wanted to tell the stories of people who had no voice. Host Jeremy Scahill is the author of black water, the rise of the worlds most powerful mercenary army. He serves as National Security correspondent for the nation magazine. His most recent book, dirty wars the world is a battlefield. The first call for him comes from carl in ft. Lauderdale. Hi, carl, you on book youre on booktv on cspan2. Jeremy scahill is our guest. Caller yes, el low. Ive followed jeremys career for quite a while. I think his work is exemplary on blackwater and especially in the new book. Earlier on the panel you had suggested that possibly were in the reason that were in the state we are now with obama was basically naive. He had no military experience, no Foreign Policy experience. If you could speak to him in light of what snowden has revealed, what could be done . Because to my light, hes about the best kind of were going to get. Another bush or cheney would be a disaster. So heres a guy, a constitutional lawyer, a liberal, a good man. What could he do now to really make transparent and stop some of these abuses as you see them . Host thank you, carl. Guest appreciate the question. First of all, i dont think and if i gave that impression, i didnt mean to i dont think that president obama was knew brief. I think hes an incredibly brilliant figure. In fact, when he was in the senate, i worked with his office at times journalistically on the blackwater issue, you know, because he has a young he as a young u. S. Senator actually was pretty serious about that issue. So i dont think its about naivete, i think if he came into Office Without having military experience, without having serious Foreign Policy credentials and was to say to the entire u. S. National security apparatus, actually, i disagree with everything and im going to do it this way, i think he would have had a very tough time being the commander or in chief. Deeper about the contradictions and of our society than Donald Rumsfeld former defense secretary secretary better tombouctou were right now. Rs whistleblowers have been indicted under the espionage act and former cia officials imprisoned for blowing the whistle on water boarding. D the nuances of portage buto the most devastating part is he has used the saysolic credibility that a lot of liberals wouldno oppose. Host we had reaction ask calls after your panel. Why you continual bash the president . Why do you bash president obama . I dont see it as bashing president obama at all. There is a reason why journalism is the only sited job in the United States constitution. And that is because we have three branches of government. And if those three branches of power collude together against the interest of the people the press is the forth estate. And journalist have a role to take against those in authority. What i would say to the caller is go back and look at my record in reporting on clinton, bush j obama. I have been consistent towards those in power and that is a core tenant of journalism. It doesnt how president obama treats his daughter. I care about how he treats the broader children in america by his policies. Robert, you are on booktv. Hi, jeremy, thanks for taking the call. First off, thank you for your courage is being the last shining light of journaltshinig light of journa shining light of journalism. And it was cool to hear you write the letter and i will pester you to get an internship in the new outlet you are starting. I watched the film dirty war and there are many aspects of this story that strike me to believe the United StatesForeign Policy and what they are doing over there, is creating more terrorism than it is ridding the world of. My question to you as someone who knows about this, and the true consequences of these policies, is do you think it would be beneficial to leave that part of the world alone . Bring the military back. Defend america. And stop invading countries. Or do you think some presence over there is necessary . Thank you, robert. I do think that we should totally pull out militarily from this nations. I think there is a responsibility way to do that. You cannot move tens of thousands of troops and equipment overnight so there has to be a safe way of withdrawing. And i dont know if you remember this but when governor george ryan was governor of georgia. He was a republican and cochair of bushs campaign. It wasnt that ryan was opposed to the death penalty. It was that there was proof, a lot generated by students, that innocent people were being put to death and dna evidence was working for them after hey were killed. I think we have hit that point with the drone strikes, targeted killing and night raids and the use of secret prison. We need to look at how far we have gone over the cliff since 911. And debby is calling from just across the mbay in miami beach. Your on live with Jeremy Scahill. Debby, we will have to put you on hold. Remind her to turn down the volume and we will move on to the next call. This is richard in massachusetts. Hi, i am like you and i need my daily dose of amys show and i brought your book in cambridge when she interviewed you. My question is three days after 911, the congress minus congressman lee, was the only authorization of the use of military force was passed. And bush and obama have used the authorization to do anything they want in the middle east with drones or whatever. My question is do you think that the neo conservatives and liberals will resend that law . Can you believe we will have troops in afghanistan until 2024. There is a lot there. I think the original authorization was a disaster piece passed because of fear. I tell young people to be watch barbaras speech. Imagine being the only decenter in congress on that vote days after the 911 attacks took place. There is discussion about repealing or modifying the authorization for the use of military force, but at the end of the day, under the article two of the constitution, the american has the right to control Foreign Policy. Democrats and republicans alike have violated the war power act and not sought congressional approval to go to many wars. Even if we repealed the amf, there is the overlying issue that there is an incredible executive power grab that was the life work of chaney and obama pushed it further along. Jeremy, in reading dirty wars where are we surprised about the troop ss . A lot of the book focus on africa and near the kenya boarder and it is called camp simba. And there is where they con fronted the pirates that is now made into a movie. But they regularly do raids there. And they have a military base in another area where drones are flown. There are troops on the ground in syria, libya, and a lot of smoke about ben gaza and a lot is conspiracy on the whitehouse. But there is a lot we dont know about. There were operations that are not documented and my sense is the attack had nothing to do with the video, but everything to do with the dirty wars. In the conflict in mali there were people on the ground. In Central America there are United States military and cia engaged in military style tickets. On any given day, jshock or others are deployed in 120 countries. Some cases are training but some are hunting them down. The United States is targeting islamic rebels in the fill feenz. Philippines i have a quick question for you have see seen the rise of amy and which version of journalism do you consider the most legit form . Alex jones is more basic. What is your answer to that . I got the question. I want to be careful in choosing my words. I think alex jones is a lunatil. He has forwarded the most outrageous conspiricacy theorie. He is pushing outright law and that subverts real journalism by giving the impression everyone is running around with a tin foil hat on. He is not in the same category as amy goodwin. Greg from iowa. Let me put this on mute here. I was wondering is the common tater here earlier said he was going to ask you the question about how come you always slam president obama. And you mentioned that for you it was because of some of his policie policies. Oh, crum. The person in the whitehouse greg, what is your point . My point was oh greg, did you have a question for Jeremy Scahill . He did a good job of explaining. Greg, very much we appreciate your calling but we will move on to lorenzo in berkeley, california. Thank you for taking my call. I am calling from barbara lees Congressional District and i was lucky enough to see you speak in may and love the book. My question is for you is given things like rand paul and the drone issues and the hearings and then people visiting for the congress people. Do you think events are a shift in the drone strikes or are they drops in the buckets. I felt embarrassed as an american when he had the pakistan and yemen family members of drone strike victims and only a handful of congressmen showed up. He is an incredible man and is on a panel with academics and was asked almost no questions. I dont think it represents a shift. I think congressman grace credit and co