Brunch. The author Robert Kuttner. Hes a Award Winning and bestselling author who covers the intersection of economics politics and social justice. Youve seen his writings everywhere from the New York Times, new york book review to the Atlantic Harpers new yorker, dissent, foreign affairs, columbia journalism review, Political Science quarterly, and, of course, the Harvard Business review. Bob is cofounder and coeditor of the american prospect magazine, cofounder of the Economic Policy institute, which, believe me, a major, major player in the economics scene in washington. He currently serves on their board as a long time columnist for business week and the boston globe. Hes academic post at boston university, harvard, among other institutions. He currently teaches at brandeis university. Bob was also a staff writer and a columnist for the washington post. Chief investigator for the Senate Banking committee. Executive director of president carters National Commission on neighborhoods. And economics editor of the new republic. Hes won numerous prestigious awards, journalism awards as well. The paul hoffman award of the United NationsDevelopment Program for his lifetime on economic efficiency as well as social justice. Hes educated at oberlin college, London School of economics and university of california at berkeley. Hes also the author of 14 books, including the 28 New York Times bestseller obamas challenge americas crisis and the power of transform primitive presidency. Bob is here today because has written a incredibly interesting and timely book and the is going big. Fdr his legacy bidens new deal and the struggle to save democracy. In this book, bob draws a line through a line from fdr to joe biden and describes the possibilities and perils facing President Biden as he attempted to go big during his first term. Im im looking forward intently to this conversation here at bob thinks about the prospects of going big and bold if there is a second biden term and what the social agenda be and that with the Political Climate at this moment our history and also im interested in bobs comments and on the topic of day and that is what is the future our democracy. Where are we going . Hows movie going to end after the november . So please, please join me in a Warm Community action welcome for Robert Kuttner. So bob, i want to start off by asking you really sort of a softball question to start this, but why did you write. Going big . Was it with frustrations with the democratic . Was it fear of what donald trump or republicans might do if, particularly a party led by donald trump to the country . Or was it out of a sense optimism that . The timing was right to do this . Well, thank you david and thank you for having me. And thanks, everybody, for coming in. Looking at my book. I think it was one part hope and one part fear. And the opening line of the book suggests that this will either be a pivot forward to Something Like the new deal or it will be a heartbreaking interregnum. Between two bouts of something very close american fascism. And we we are in it. We will know which it is come november. I think the other reason i wrote the book and i started writing this in. 2021 was out of a sense, joe biden of, all people was starting to lead the democratic back to something that. The Democratic Party had lost, which was a concern for the wellbeing of ordinary working people. And a lot of the book is how three democratic president s begin with a carter and then clinton and then obama really set the stage for donald trump by being very liberal on social issues. But by forgetting, as James Carville famously posted a note its the economy, stupid. And if you deprive ordinary of their dreams, then sooner or later youre going to get someone like donald trump, where the anger and frustration and, the exasperation and the that elites are looking down on you opens the door to a kind of racist that in some ways is irrational, but it cant be written off because it reflects the real feelings of ordinary people. And i, in 2021, i was astonished that joe biden of all people, given his history as a very mainstream democrat, was sounding more like fdr. And i argue that this was actually a good thing that the council that democrats needed to recoup by moving to the center was bad advice economically it was bad advice politically was not going to help and yet heres biden, who is the most improbable messenger of that pivot. Hes almost 80 years old. As i wrote you of had the soul of Elizabeth Warren in the persona of joe biden. And that didnt quite compute. And yet going big was right thing to do. And we can talk in more detail about why more people have not appreciated the fact that the economy is in good shape, that this is to bidens credit. I have some answers to that. Ill save that for the conversation. Back and forth. But i think my point if if progressive vision is ever going to take the play away from the kind of resentful, angry, reactionary politics that breeds trumpism, its going to have to do something for ordinary people again. And the American Dream has lost. My generation, if you didnt have rich parents, had a very good shot at. The American Dream college was basically free. You could afford to buy a home you could get a job that was a gig that had a good career. You could a pension you could have Affordable Health and Health System was not impenetrable. And you look at the world from the point view of somebody whos 25 years old, who doesnt have rich parents or the point of view of whos 40 years old, who is in a declining area of the country or a declining sector of the economy. The price of realizing that dream are getting further and further away. And unless we restore it, which i think biden is really trying do, youre going to have more and angry reaction. The so whats been the response from Party Leaders to your book. Well, i think initially when the book came. In 2022 and i wrote that the democrats are not going to get clobbered in the 22 midterm for a variety reasons that i can talk about. People were very skeptical ordinarily when you get elected in the first midterm, your party loses control of congress. Well, biden hung on the senate. He almost hung on to the house, only lost a few seats in the house. And and i think a lot of commentators felt that the democrats really needed to repair to the center because you needed manchin in cinema and maybe you could peel a few republicans. And said no democrats really needed to be more than more like fdr. And the fact that biden did this in his first two years with working majority i think of five or six votes in the house one or two votes on a good day in the senate. He passed all this great stuff was kind of a miracle. And i think i feel rather vindicated because somehow biden, as witnessed in the state of the Union Address and, witnessed in his that was just released on on monday is trying to go even. And my friend Stan Greenberg the pollster has advised biden dont dont brag about what youve done. Theres a kind of cognitive dissonance if people feel that their lives have not fundamentally changed for the better and that yeah, inflation down, but prices are still higher than they were years ago. And technical. As a matter of Economic Statistics wages are up, but there may be up 1 . And i dont have any shot at buying a house than i did four years ago. If you talk about how great things are youre, youre going to challenge peoples lived experience. But you say to them, give me a Democratic Congress, reelect me. These the things im going to do in my second term. Thats more plausible. And i thats what biden did in the state of the union. I think thats what he did in his budget. And and and more and more power to him. And, of course, he finally got energized. This whole picture of sleepy joe that trump has got to town with. Biden was on fire and god we need to see more of that. The you Joe Joe Biden in the senate. You know i knew biden in the senate. I certainly observed as Vice President. Did you expect the joe biden that went big to go big . No. And part of this book tries to explain why he went big. And i think there are three reasons. And the analogy with roosevelt is very interesting in this regard. So the first reason was that that he inherited a crisis the same way that roosevelt inherited a crisis. You may recall that campaigned on a balanced budget. He attacked Herbert Hoover from the right. Hoover was spending much money and it wasnt until roosevelt took office and realized desperate the National Situation was that roosevelt started governing on the need for Massive Public outlay and some deficit spending. And i think biden, whod been a, you know, a fairly conventional moderately liberal democrat all of his career obamas Vice President , takes office at a moment when the covid crisis and the covid recession are requiring very substantial outlay. And so he pivots. He uses the moment he rises to the occasion. But there are two other reasons. One is that if you recall, how got the nominee asian bidens campaign was dead in the water. He he was going nowhere. He was written off. I think if if sanders and warren had not both been the race, one of them might well have been the nominee. But then he wins the South Carolina primary. He wins it big. He goes on to run the table on super tuesday. And warren, in particular, follows her campaign early, becomes all in for biden and exchanges loyalty for. And a lot of warrens ideas are really im sorry a lot of bidens ideas are really warrens ideas. A lot of bidens key personnel are warren people. And so biden really almost inspired of himself becomes, the standard bearer of the warren wing of of the Democratic Party. I think the third reason is reality. You had three democratic president s. Really moving more towards the center, embracing what some people call neoliberalism. Lets deregulate. Lets privatize. Lets balance the budget. And by 2016, it became clear that that working. And so think reality had to the left if you will the center of the Democratic Party had moved to the left. Bernie sanders, who was simply taken seriously until 2016, all of a sudden a major player. I think a majority of young people, the Public Opinion polls said they had a favorable view of socialism. So i think reality moves to the left, Democratic Party moves to the left. Warren a lot of influence. And then he seizes the moment that he inherits. So biden, of all people, becomes fdr redux. Who would have thunk it . Well, yeah, who would have thunk it . Is right. The you look at the three successive democratic before carter, fdr, truman, lbj. Right. They all went big. Yeah, in a way they all surprised by their movement to the left. Louis roosevelt was first bureau. The budget director quit resigned because of the that roosevelt running. No one would have expected truman from missouri right to move like he did. And of course, lbj went went big and and shocked a lot of people, the Democratic Party. So there a realization that going and bold is a strategy successful democratic have been big and theyve been bold. So why specifically, why do you think carter started the trend of a abandoning what was a successful formula for the democrat . Its a great question and its sort of the heart of the book the book. Let me say a little bit more about, truman, because its such interesting history. So, truman, to to the surprise of a lot of people gets gets named named roosevelts running mate at time when roosevelt has only three months to live and roosevelt is in denial about what poor health hes in and. Henry, who was then Vice President , was very left wing and a little flaky and unpopular with the party. And so roosevelt agrees to replace. And then theres a big tug of war about whos going to replace. Wallace as the Vice President , the compromise candidate is truman. And then the truman. Is track to just lose a blowout election in 1948. He loses congress in 1946. And keeps stumbling. There was a line in those years to air is truman and and then in the in summer of of 48 on the advice a couple of strategists truman goes big. He sends up to Congress Republican congress a whole new package that he knows is to be defeated in order to the difference between him and the do nothing congress, which he called it. And then he goes on the road he goes on the road twice and he gets energized and he says things like, dont vote for me, vote for yourself. These republicans are all just about wall. They dont give a about you. And his rhetoric gets bolder and bolder. Bolder. And even though hes got the Dixiecrat Party on the right, walking out because he supports the civil rights plank at the convention and hes got the left, hes walking out to nominate wallace. He still wins. He wins 303 electoral votes. He wins by by 3 million popular votes. And because truman rediscovers his inner new dealer. And then you have johnson. Who decides almost on day one that his destiny is to redeem the unfree business of roosevelt. And of course, if it werent for the tragedy of vietnam, which then divides the party and ushers in nixon, and ushers in a whole more conservative era, lbj would have been one of the great us president s ever and he would have succeeded. So now why carter . And if you if you look back at that era, its 1974. Nixon has resigned in disgrace. Jerry ford has become president and and theres a kind of a general revulsion against the corruption of washington and jimmy carter is the ultimate outsider. Hes also a much better politician than a lot of people gave him credit. I was the junior man on the National Staff of the washington post. In 1974 when carter declared for the nomination in. 1976. And my editor calls and says, this guy, jimmy carter, i think hes governor of georgia, is having an event at the National Press club. Will you come in and cover it . Now, at that point, carters name recognition, not not his popularity rating, but people who have ever heard of him is 2 . And i, the only National Reporter who even covered the event. Thats obscure. Carter. But he was a dynamo politician. And his time was unerring. People were in the mood to nominate. And then elect an outsider. So why does carter become the most conservative democratic president. Since Grover Cleveland . And i think the answer is the nature of the times. First of all, you have this horrible inflation that is the result of the opec oil price increases. And secondly you have carter his advisers telling him that if you want to do something about deregulation, inflation, lets deregulate. Lets deregulate airlines and lets deregulate trucking. Lets deregulate the Health System and lets deregulate the several other sectors of the economy. And that will engender a competition. So the whole new deal schema of regulation gets tossed out the window on theory that competition is going to be good for restraining prices. Well, of course what happens is you get recounts, creation of powerful industries without regulation. Also, carter blames unions for inflation. Unions too much power. They put up wages. That in turn puts up prices. So carters not terribly friendly to unions and. Then finally, you have supply side economists saying that, well, the way to reenergize the is to cut taxes on capital and the first supply side tax is not reagan. Its in 1978. So carter believes that you got to move to the center and also carter very unfortunately appoints paul volcker to be head of the fed and volcker decides that the way were going to break the back of inflation is to put Interest Rates up to 20 . And we all know how that worked out. So, yeah, it did break the back of but at the cost of a terrible recession. And then reagan roaring in and reagan does neo big time. So unfortunately the carter repositioned Democratic Party as a kind of center, a center right party. Privatization, tax cutting, antiunion and the. 1980 election. Is it total blowout . Really the new deal long shadow of the new deal continues right through the seventies. Nixon did not try to repeal the new deal. Eisenhower certainly did not try to repeal the new deal. Eisenhower has a Democratic Senate for six out of eight years. Final in 1980, democrats, the senate and a whole of Senate Progressives gets blown. Republicans take the senate and this really is the beginning of, the conservative era. The both roosevelt, truman, johnson had large majorities of their party in congress. The great 89th is very famous in terms of did so did carter. Yeah and and yet. Yeah. Carter in 76 did have huge worry at 80. He was fair for Ronald Reagan to say are you better off today than you were four years ago . Which no one in their right mind would say, oh, yeah i