Americans are watching on television as well. San francisco was the site of the signing of the United Nations charter, 31 years ago, thus it is an appropriate place to hold this debate. The subject of which is foreign and defense issues. The questioners tonight are max frankle, associate editor of the new york times. Henry l. True et, Diplomatic Correspondent and richard Diplomatic Correspondent of nbc news. The ground rules tonight are basically the same as they were for the first debate two weeks ago. The questions will be alternated between candidates. By the toss of a coin, governor carter will take the first question. Each question sequence will be as follows, the question will be asked and the candidate will have up to three minutes to answer, his opponent will have up to two minutes to respond. And prior to the response, the questioner may ask a followup question to clarify the candidates answer when necessary with up to two minutes to reply. Each candidate will have three minutes for closing statement at the end. President ford and governor carter do not have notes or prepared remarks with them this evening, they can take notes during the debate and refer to them. Mr. Frankle you have the first question for governor carter. Governor, since the democrats Foreign Policy including many of the men who are advising you, country has been relieved of the vietnam agony and the military draft. We started arms control negotiations with the russians. Weve opened relations with china. Weve arranged the disengagement in the middle east, weve regained influence without deserting israel, now weve begun a process of peaceful change in africa. Youve objected in this campaign to the style with which much of this was done and youve mentioned some other things that you think ought to have been done. But do you really have a quarrel with this republican record, would you not have done any of those things . Well, i think this Republican Administration has been almost all style and spectacular and not substance. Weve got a chance to actually talk about, first of all, leadership, the character of our country and a vision of the future. And every one of these instances, the Ford Administration has failed and i hope tonight, will have a chance to discuss a reason for those failures. Our country is not strong any more. Were not respected any more. We can only be strong if were strong at home. And when i become president , well not only be strong in those areas, but also in defense, a defense capability second to none. Weve lost in our Foreign Policy the character of the American People. Weve ignored or excluded the American People and the congress for participation in the shaping of Foreign Policy has been one of secrecy and exclusion. In addition to that, weve had a chance to become now contrary to our longstanding believes and principals, the Arms Merchant of a whole world. Were trying to bind success from enemies from the same time weve excluded from the process, the normal friendship of our allies. In addition to that, weve become fearful to compete with the soviet union on equal basis. We talk about the time. The soviet union knows what they want and theyve been getting it. We have not known what weve wanted and weve been talking about in every instance. The only part i want to make is about the defense. Weve got to be a nation blessed with a defense capability thats efficient, tough, capable, well organized, narrowly focused, fighting capability. The ability to fight, if necessary, is the best way to avoid the chance for or the requirement to fight. And the last point i want to make is this, mr. Ford, mr. K s kissinger have continued on. Even the republican platform has criticized the lack of leadership and mr. Ford and theyve criticized the policy of this administration. This is one instance where i agree with, with the republican platform. I might say this in closing, and that is is, as far as Foreign Policy goes, mr. Kissinger has been the president of this country. Mr. Ford has shown an absence of leadership and absence of grasp of what this country is and what it ought to be. Thats got to be changed and thats one of the major issues in this campaign of 1976. President ford, would you like to respond. Governor carter, again, is talking in broad generalities. Let me take just one question that he raises. The military strength and capability of the United States. Governor carter in november of 1975 indicated that he wanted to cut the Defense Budget by 15 billion, a few months later, he said he wanted to cut the Defense Budget by 8 or 9 billion. More recently he talked about cutting the Defense Budget by 5 to 7 billion. Theres no way you can be strong militarily and have those kind of reductions in our military appropriation. Now, let me just tell you a little story. About late october of 1975, i ask the then secretary of defense, mr. Slesinger, to tell me what had to be done if we were going to reduce the Defense Budget by three to five billion dollars. We will have to reduce the construction program. We will have to reduce the research and development for the army, the navy, the air force and marines by 8 . We would have to close 20 military faces in the United States immediately. Thats the kind of a Defense Program that mr. Carter wants. Let me tell you this straight from the shoulder, you dont negotiate with mr. From weakness and the kind of a Defense Program that mr. Carter wants will mean a weaker defense and a poorer negotiating position. Mr. Truitt a question for president ford. My question is really the other side of the coin for mr. Frankle. For generations United States has had a Foreign Policy based on containment of con ewism. Yet weve lost a shoving match in angola. Communist threat tennessee to come to power and relations have cooled with the soviet union in the last few months. Let me ask you first, what do you do about such cases as italy. Secondly, does this general drift mean that were moving back towards something old cold relationship between the soviet union. I dont believe we should move to cold war relationship. I think its in the best interest of the United States and the world as a whole, that the United States negotiate rather than go back to the cold war relationship with the soviet union. I dont look at the picture as briefly as you have indicated in your question, mr. Truitt. I believe that the United States has had many successes in recent years and recent months as far as the come muist movement has concerned. It didnt. We have a democracy in portugal today. A few months ago, or i should say, maybe two years ago, the soviet union looked like they had continued strength in the middle east. Today, according to Prime Minister soviet union is weaker in the middle east than they have been in many many years, the facts are, there the soviet Union Relationship with egypt is at a low level. The soviet Union Relationship with syria is at a very low point. The United States today according to Prime Minister rescreen of israel is at a peak. We wanted to have the full protection of minority. We wanted to preserve Human Dignity in Southern Africa. We have taken the initiative and in Southern Africa today, the United States is trusted by the black front line nation and black africa, the United States is trusted by the other elements in Southern Africa. United states Foreign Policy under this administration has been one of progress and success. And i believe that instead of talking about soviet progress, we can talk about american successes. May i make an observation part of the question you asked mr. Truitt. I dont believe that its in the best interest of the United States in the nato nations to have a communist government in na nato. I think that will destroy the integrity and the strength of nato and im totally opposed to it. Unfortunately he just made a statement thats not true. I have never advocated a communist government for italy, that will be a ridiculous thing. I think that this is an instance for deliberate distortion and this is occurred also in the question about defense. As a matter of fact, ive never advocated any cut of 15 billion, as a matter of fact, mr. Ford has made a political football out of Defense Budget. About a year ago, he cut the pentagon budget 6. 8 billion. After he fired james, the political heat go so great he added value about 3 billion. When Ronald Reagan won the texas primary election, mr. Ford added back another 1. 5 million. Immediately before the kansas city convention, he added back another 1. 8le billion dollars in the Defense Budget and his own, office of management budget testify that he had a 3 billion cut insurance added to the Defense Budget under the pressure from the pentagon. Obviously, this is another indication of trying to use the Defense Budget for political purposes, which hes trying to do tonight. We went into south africa late after a great britain, black nations have been trying to solve this problem for many many years. We didnt go in until right before the election, similar to what was taking place in 1972 and mr. Kiss sin jer announced pieces at hand just before the election at that time. We have weakened opposition in nato. The other countries supported the Democratic Forces in portugal long before we did. We stuck before the dictator ship much longer than other democracies did in this world. You had a question for governor carter. Much of what the United States does abroad is done in the name of the national interest. What is your concept of the national interest, what should the roll of the United States in the world be. And in that connection, considering your limiting experience in Foreign Affairs and the fact that do take some pride in doing washington outsider, dont you think it would be appropriate for you to tell the American Voters before the election, people that you would like to have in key positions such as secretary of state, secretary of defense, National Security of Affairs Adviser at the white house. Im not going to name my cabinet who i got elected. Ive got a little ways to go before i started doing that. Ive an adequate background, i believe. First military graduate since eisenhower. Ive served as governor of georgia and traveled extensively in south america, europe, middle east and in japan. Ive traveled the last 21 months among the people of this country. Ive talked to them and ive listened. And ive seen it firsthand in a very vivid way, the deep hurt thats come to this country and the aftermath of vietnam and cam bode owe and chilly and pakistan and angola and water gate, and cia revelations. What we are so proud of, strength of our country, its integrity. The representation in Foreign Affairs of what our people are, what our constitution stands for has been gone. And in the secrecy that has surrounded our Foreign Policy in the last few years, the American People has been excluded. I believe i know what this country ought to be. I have been one who has loved my nation as Many Americans do and i believe that theres no limit placed on what we can be in the future if we could harness a tremendous resources, militarily, economically, and stature of our people meaning of the constitution in the future. Every time weve made a serious mistake in Foreign Affairs, its been because the American People have been exclude frd the process. If we can just tap the intelligence and ability, the sound common sense and a good judgment of the American People, we can, once again, have a Foreign Policy to make us proud instead of ashamed. Im not going to exclude the American People from that process in the future as they have done. This is what it takes to have a sound Foreign Policy, strong at home, strong defense, permanent commitments, not destroy the principals of country and the shaping of Foreign Policy. Every time mr. Ford speaks from a position of secrecy in negotiations and secret treaties have been pursued and achieved and supporting dictator ship and ignoring human rights, we are weak and the rest of the world knows it. So these are the ways that we can restore the strength of our country and they dont require a long experience in Foreign Policy, nobody has that except a president who served a long time and secretary of state. My background, my experience, my knowledge as the people of the country. My commitment to the principals that dont change, those are the best to correct the whole of the mistakes of this administration and restore our own country to position of leadership in the world. How, specifically, governor, are you going to bring the American People into the decisionmaking process in Foreign Policy, what does that mean. First of all, i would i would conducting the decisionmaking process in secret, as has been characteristic of mr. Kissinger and mr. Ford. In any instance weve made agreements in vietnam that have been revealed later on to embarrassment, recently smith, the president of announced that he had unequivocal commitments that he could not reveal, the American People dont know what those commitments are. Weve seen in the past a destruction of elected governments like in chilly and the strong support of military dictator ship there. These kind of things have hurt us very much. I would restore the concept, which was a integral part of the administration. And i will also restore the involvement of the congress when harry true man was president. He was not afraid to have a strong secretary of defense. He also made sure that there was a bipartisan support, the members of congress, author, walter jorng, part of the process and before our nation made a secret agreement or before we made a bluffing statement, we were sure that we had the backing, not only the president and secretary of state, but also the congress and the people, this is a responsibility of the president and i think its very damaging to our country for mr. Ford to have turned over this responsibility to the secretary of state. President ford, do you have a response. Governor carter contradicts himself. He complains about secrecy, and yet he is quoted as saying that in the attempt to find a solution in the middle east that he would hold unpublicized meetings with the soviet union, i presume for the purpose of and imposing a settlement on israel and the arab nation. But let me talk just a minute about what weve done to avoid secrecy and the Ford Administration. After the United States took the initiative and in working with israel and with egypt and achieving the sinai agreement, and im proud to say that not a single egyptian or israeli soldier has lost his life since the signing of the sinai agreement. But at the time that i submitted the sinai agreement to the congress of the United States, i submitted every single document that was applicable to the sinai agreement. It was the most complete documentation by any president of any agreement signed by a president on behalf of the United States. Now, as far as meeting with the congress is concerned, during the 24 months that ive been the president of the United States, i have averaged better than one meeting a month with responsible groups or committees of the congress, both house and senate. The secretary of state has appeared in the several years that hes been the secretary before 80 Different Committee hearings in the house and in the senate. The secretary of state has made better than 50 speeches all over the United States explaining american Foreign Policy. I have made, myself, at least 10 speeches in various parts of the country where i have discussed with the American People defense and Foreign Policy. Mr. Frankle, a question for p