This debate from los angeles is about an hour and a half. Bernard shaw on behalf of the commission on president ial debates, i am pleased to welcome you to the second president ial debate. I am bernard shaw of cnn, cable news network. My colleagues on the panel are ann compton of abc news, Margaret Warner of newsweek magazine, and Andrea Mitchell of nbc news. The candidates are Vice President george bush, the republican nominee, and governor michael dukakis, the democratic nominee. [applause] bernard for the next 90 minutes we will be questioning the candidates following a format designed and agreed to by representatives of the two campaigns. However, there are no restrictions on the questions that my colleagues and i can ask this evening, and the candidates have no prior knowledge of our questions. By agreement between the candidates, the first question goes to governor dukakis. You have two minutes to respond. Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable Death Penalty for the killer . Gov. Dukakis no, i dont, bernard. And i think you know that ive opposed the Death Penalty during all of my life. I dont see any evidence that its a deterrent, and i think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime. Weve done so in my own state. And its one of the reasons why we have had the biggest drop in crime of any industrial state in america, why we have the lowest murder rate of any industrial state in america. But we have work to do in this nation. We have work to do to fight a real war, not a phony war, against drugs. And thats something i want to lead, something we havent had over the course of the past many years, even though the Vice President has been at least allegedly in charge of that war. We have much to do to step up that war, to double the number of Drug Enforcement agents, to fight both here and abroad, to work with our neighbors in this hemisphere. And i want to call a hemispheric summit just as soon after the 20th of january as possible to fight that war. But we also have to deal with drug education prevention here at home. And thats one of the things that i hope i can lead personally as the president of the United States. Weve had Great Success in my own state. And weve reached out to young people and their families and been able to help them by beginning drug education and prevention in the early elementary grades. So we can fight this war, and we can win this war. And we can do so in a way that marshals our forces, that provides real support for state and local Law Enforcement officers who have not been getting that support, and do it in a way which will bring down violence in this nation, will help our youngsters to stay away from drugs, will stop this avalanche of drugs thats pouring into the country, and will make it possible for our kids and our families to grow up in safe and secure and decent neighborhoods. Bernard mr. Vice president , your oneminute rebuttal. Vice president bush well, a lot of what this campaign is about, it seems to me bernie, goes to the question of values. And here i do have, on this particular question, a big difference with my opponent. You see, i do believe that some crimes are so heinous, so brutal, so outrageous, and id say particularly those that result in the death of a Police Officer, for those real brutal crimes, i do believe in the Death Penalty, and i think it is a deterrent, and i believe we need it. And im glad that the congress moved on this drug bill and have finally called for that related to these narcotics drug kingpins. And so we just have an honest difference of opinion. I support it and he doesnt. Bernard now to you, Vice President bush. I quote to you this from article iii of the 20th amendment to the constitution. Quote, if at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the president the president elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become president , meaning, if you are elected and die before inauguration day. Vice president bush bernie. [laughter] bernard automatically, dan quayle would become the 41st president of the United States. What have you to say about that possibility . Vice president bush id have confidence in him. And i made a good selection. And ive never seen such a pounding, an unfair pounding, on a young senator in my entire life. And ive never seen a president ial campaign where the president ial nominee runs against my Vice President ial nominee, never seen one before. [laughter] [applause] Vice President bush but you know, Lloyd Bentsen jumped on dan quayle, when dan quayle said, hes had roughly the same amount of experience. He had two terms in the congress. He had two terms in the senate, serving his second term. He founded, authored, the Job Training Partnership act. It says to american working men and women that are thrown out of work for no fault of their own that theyre going to have jobs. Were moving into a new competitive age, and we need that kind of thing. He, unlike my opponent, is an expert in national defense. Helped amend the inf treaty so we got a good, sound treaty, when these people over here were talking about a freeze. If wed listened to them, we would never have had a treaty. And so i have great confidence in him. And its turning around. You know, the American People are fair. They dont like it when theres an unfair pounding and kind of hooting about people. They want to judge it on the record itself. And so im proud of my choice. And you know, i dont think age is the only criterion. But ill tell you something, im proud that people who are 30 years old and 40 years old now have someone in their generation that is going to be Vice President of the United States of america. I made a good selection. The American People are seeing it, and im proud of it. Thats what id say. And he could do the job. Bernard governor dukakis, your oneminute rebuttal. Gov. Dukakis bernard, this was the first president ial decision that we as nominees were called upon to make. And thats why people are so concerned. Because it was an opportunity for us to demonstrate what we were looking for in a running mate. More than that, it was the First National security decision that we had to make. The Vice President talks about National Security. Three times since world war ii, the Vice President has had to suddenly become the president and commander in chief. I picked Lloyd Bentsen, because i thought he was the best qualified person for the job. [applause] gov. Dukakis mr. Bush picked dan quayle, and before he did it, he said, watch my choice for Vice President , it will tell all and it sure did. It sure did. [applause] bernard ann compton for the Vice President. Ann thank you, bernie. Mr. Vice president , yes, we read your lips, no new taxes. But despite that same pledge from president reagan, after income tax rates were cut, in each of the last five years some , federal taxes have gone up, on Social Security, cigarettes, liquor, even Long Distance telephone calls. Now thats money straight out of peoples wallets. Isnt the phrase no new taxes misleading the voters . Vice president bush no, because im pledged to that, and yes, some taxes have gone up. And the main point is, taxes have been cut, and yet income is up to the federal government by 25 in the last three years. And so what i want to do is keep this expansion going. I dont want to kill it off by a tax increase. More americans at work today than at any time in the history of the country, and a greater percentage of the work force. And the way you kill expansions is to raise taxes. And i dont want to do that, and i wont do that. And what i have proposed is something much better. And its going to take discipline of the executive branch, its going to take discipline of the Congressional Branch. And that is what i call a flexible freeze that allows growth about 4 or the rate of inflation but does not permit the Congress Just to add on spending. I hear this talk about a blank check. The American People are pretty smart. They know who writes out the checks. And they know who appropriates the money. It is the United States congress. And by two to one, congress is blamed for these deficits. And the answer is to discipline both the executive branch and the Congressional Branch by holding the line on taxes. So im pledged to do that. And those pessimists who say it cant be done, im sorry, i just have a fundamental disagreement with them. Bernard governor dukakis, your oneminute response. Gov. Dukakis ann, the Vice President made that pledge. Hes broken it three times in the past year already. So it isnt worth the paper its printed on. And what im concerned about is that if we continue with the policies that mr. Bush is talking about here this evening, the flexible freeze somebody described it the other day as a kind of economic slurpee he wants to spend billions on virtually every weapons system around. He says hes not going to raise taxes, though he has broken that pledge repeatedly. He says he wants to give the wealthiest 1 of the people in this country a fiveyear, 40 billion tax break, and were going to pay for it. And hes been proposing all kinds of programs for new spending costing billions. Now if we continue with these policies, this trillion and a half dollars worth of new debt thats already been added on the backs of the american taxpayer is going to increase even more, and if we continue with this for another four years, then im worried about the next generation, whether we can ever turn this situation around. No, we need a chief executive who is prepared to lead, who wont blame the congress, who will lead to bring down that deficit, who will make tough choices on spending. Bernard governor . Gov. Dukakis will go out and do the job that we expect of him and do it with the congress of the United States. [applause] bernard and to governor dukakis. Ann governor, let me follow up on that by asking you youve said it many times that you have balanced 10 budgets in a row in massachusetts. Are you promising the American People here tonight that within a fouryear president ial term, you will balance the federal budget . Gov. Dukakis no, im not sure i can promise that. I dont think either one of us can really. There is no way of anticipating what may happen. I will say this, that we will set as our goal a steady, gradual reduction of the deficit, which will require tough choices on spending. It will require a good strong rate of economic growth. It will require a plan that the president works out with the congress, doesnt blame them, works it out with them, which brings that deficit down. It will require us to go out and collect billions and billions of dollars in taxes owed that arent being paid in this country. And thats grossly unfair to the average american who is paying his taxes and paying them on time and doesnt have any alternative. Its taken out of his paycheck. Mr. Bush says we are going to put the irs on every taxpayer. Thats not what we are going to do. Im for the taxpayer bill of rights. But i think its unconscionable, ann, that we should be talking or thinking about imposing new taxes on average americans when there are billions out there, over 100 billion, in taxes owed that arent being paid. Now, i think if we Work Together on it, and if you have a president that will work with the congress and the American People, we can bring that deficit down steadily, 20, 25, 30 billion a year, build economic growth, build a good strong future for america, invest in those things which we must invest in economic development, good jobs, good schools for our kids, College Opportunity for young people, Decent Health care and affordable housing, and a clean and safe environment. We can do all of those things, and at the same time build a future in which we are standing on a good strong fiscal foundation. Senator bentsen said, as you recall at the debate with senator quayle, that if you give any of us 200 billion worth of hot checks a year, we can create an illusion of prosperity. But sooner or later, that credit card mentality isnt going to work. And i want to bring to the white house a sense of strength and fiscal responsibility which will build a good Strong Foundation under which this country, or above which country can move, grow, invest, and build the best america for its people and for our kids and our grandkids. [applause] bernard mr. Vice president , your response. Vice president bush the governor has to balance the budget in his state. He is required to by law. He has raised taxes several times. I wish he would join me, as a matter of fact, in appealing to the American People for the balanced Budget Amendment for the federal government and for the lineitem veto. [applause] id like to have that lineitem veto for the president , because i think that would be extraordinarily helpful. And i wont do one other thing that hes had to do. Took 29 million out of his state pension fund. Thats equivalent at the federal level of taking out of the Social Security trust fund. Im not going to do that. I wont do that. [applause] and so im still a little unclear as to whether hes for or against the tax increase. I have been for the taxpayer bill of rights all along. And this idea of unleashing a whole bunch an army, a conventional force army, of irs agents into everybodys kitchen. I mean, hes against most defense matters, and now he wants to get an army of jrs auditors going out there. [laughter] i am against that. I oppose that. [boos and applause] bernard im going to say this and im going to say it once to every person in this auditorium what these candidates are about is of utmost seriousness to the american voters. They should be heard and you should be quiet. If you are not quiet, i am going to implore the candidates to do something about quieting their own partisans. But we cannot get through this program with these outbursts. Margaret warner for governor dukakis. Margaret good evening, governor, mr. Vice president. Governor, you won the first debate on intellect, and yet you lost it on heart. [laughter] you will get your turn. Vice president bush just a minute. Gov. Dukakis i dont know if the Vice President agrees with that. Margaret the American Public admired your performance, but didnt seem to like you much. Now, Ronald Reagan has found his personal warmth to be a tremendous political asset. Do you think that a president has to be likable to be an effective leader . Gov. Dukakis margaret, may i go back and just say to the Vice President that i didnt raid the pension fund of massachusetts. You are dead wrong, george, we didnt do that. As a matter of fact, im the first governor in the history of my state to fund that pension system, and im very proud of that. [applause] no, we did not. I have been in politics for 25 years, margaret. Ive won a lot of elections, ive lost a few, as you know, and learned from those losses. I won the democratic nomination in 51 separate contests. I think im a reasonably likable guy. [laughter] im serious though i think im a little more lovable these days than i used to be back in my youth when i began in my state legislature. But im also a serious guy. I think the presidency of the United States is a very serious office, and i think we have to address these issues in a very serious way. So i hope and expect that i will be liked by the people of this country as president of the United States. I certainly hope i will be liked by them on the 8th of november. But i also think its important to be somebody who is willing to make those tough choices. Now, we have just heard two or three times from the Vice President hes not going to raise taxes. I repeat, within days after you made that pledge, you broke it; you said, well, maybe as a last resort well do it. And you supported legislation this year thats involved tax increases not once, but twice. So that pledge isnt realistic, and i think the Vice President knows it. I think the people of this country know it. The fact of the matter is that the next president of the United States is going to have to go to the white house seriously, he is going to have to work with the Congress Seriously he cant turn to the congress and blame them for the fact that we dont have a balanced budget and that we have billions and billions of dollars in red ink. And i am going to be a president who is serious, i hope and expect will be liked by the American People. But more than that, to do the kind of job that im elected to do, will do it with as mu