Transcripts For CSPAN3 Amanda 20240705

Hello and welcome. Thanks for joining at the seminary club bookstores for tonights of getting me cheap. Hello. Each work traps women and girls in poverty. The seminary club book stores founded in 1961 and in 2019, we became countrys first and currently only, not for profit bookstore, Whose Mission is bookselling. This mission, recognizing recognizes bookselling as a cultural endeavor. Bookseller is as professionals and bookstores. As a Civic Institution that supports an informed populace. We invite you to browse and encourage you to more about the coop. Its a support system store, 57th street books and how to support these unique cultural institutions by visiting our websites and cars. Com and of course speaking to a bookseller. It is my distinct pleasure to welcome to welcome our speakers tonight for housekeeping notes we ask that everyone remain masked for the duration of the event and for the book signing to come. But my id love to welcome Amanda Freeman who is our speaker and the author of getting me cheap Amanda Freeman is an assistant professor of sociology at the university of hartford and a writer and researcher. Motherhood and work. She lives in westport, connecticut getting me cheap, published by the new press, is her first book. Amandas Andrew Outten is joined in conversation today by anna galland and as a strategist and covers Organization Builder excuse working to advance democracy and build world where everyone can thrive. She serves as chair of the board of moveon and as a member of the boards of Public Citizen and the National Domestic workers. Her work in National Media has included numerous appearances at msnbc, cnn and cspan and interviews with print publications, including the New York Times, the washington post. Her writing has appeared in outlets the nation and impact alpha. So grateful for, both of you to join us tonight for this conversation. And please give our speakers a warm welcome welcome with some of what an amazing institution we are so grateful to be here. I am certainly. And amanda, this is very exciting to be in conversation with you. I think you have given us such a powerful offering in getting me cheap. I read this book in, the context of being someone whose work in the world is organizing and campaigning for social. And what i read this was as a kind of contribution to the conversation about ways in which our economy and society and social safety net, such as they are now, make brutal demands on working women and in low wage jobs, especially care workers, nannies, care workers, Child Care Workers, fast food workers, the folks who do the work that powers the day to day for so many us who are doing other kinds of work and how we collectively as a are making these brutal demands not only on the workers, not only on the low wage women workers that you describe in your book, but also indirectly on their children. I thought that was one of the most important observations that, really, im going to carry with me into our conversation and going forward. Theres tons of moving texture in this book, including stories that made have been familiar but felt acute as you brought them into focus. For example, girls, some as young as being in grade school or middle school who are missing days of their own education because theyve been sort of conscripted into doing the care work to take care of the household where. Their mother is going off to take care of someone else. So as you put it, mothers turn to children to fill the gap by poverty wages or other texture. From the book, you pointed out, this practice of hiring. So imagine that im working in a low wage job in a restaurant. I dont have access to quality, affordable care. And so i bring my child to work and i conceal the kid in the bread racks. That was the kind of story that i read and thought, wow, thats something didnt personally know of before. Im glad i know it now as a kind of piece of texture of the hidden cost of our economy. It seems to me that you are to pull the curtain back for people may not have this direct lived experience. And that youre also perhaps for folks who do have this experience holding up a mirror and for all of us saying it doesnt have to be this way. It shouldnt be this way. This is a setup for these families and these women and their children to and to suffer needlessly in the process for the rest of our consumer. So thats intense. Thats important. Im so glad youre offering it. And lets get it together. I know youre going to read us a passage of the book to get us. Im going to read a little bit. No expectation that anyone has read the book. Previous this. So ill start out with the introduction and ill get into a little section terms of domestic care work pre pandemic. Lisa dodson this book is coauthored, so shes my coauthor and i have been listening to low moms for years. So were not surprised that the pandemic took the most from those who could afford it the least. This is not new low wage work in food service as grocery clerks and retail sales as cleaners, childcare workers and in the rapidly expanding market, home health and elder care, the nations backwater jobs are filled largely by women and, disproportionately black and brown women, while raising more than half of all kids in america. They provide the Services Higher income people rely on to manage their family and care demands. As one woman put it to us years ago they get me cheap, which is how we got the title. This book is guided the concerns and values that low income women emphasize and circled back repeatedly in our conversations them. Its not a linear story, one molded by current partizan debates. Instead, it mirrors the lives women describe to us. Multitasking. Above all, in order to be there for their kids, we heard how they changed jobs, went back to school joined the armed services, made residential moves and at times sought assistance to supplement poverty wages across states. And over the years, one thing never changed motherhood and kids was always at center of their lives. And then if youre looking going to read another section from, seeing. When they get the real answer. Its called work for cheap. And just a little context. So in this chapter, i mean women do about 80 of all care work. Right. And so all women we spoke with were managing care work in their own homes and then also working full time part, time and in order for us to speak with, they were receiving at least one public benefit. So thats basically who we were talking. Nannies, housekeepers and home care workers are seldom in a position to renegotiate even as employers expand, change, work expectations. In fact, when employers ask for more, its often hard to turn them down. Saying no to a domestic employer can feel a threat to a personal relationship. But the burden of this kind of employer employee personal relationship is one sided. Many Domestic Workers described when the employing family had a change like a job change, marital separation reduction of hours at the pandemic or other major shift the relationship quickly reverted to a boss employee dynamic abruptly with reduced labor demand. Care worker was no longer viewed as almost kin. They were no longer part. The family. And this section, this brief section is about a care worker. Serena. So she was commuting to be a nanny for a family who lived about an hour and a half away from her. When i first talked to serena, she had just given birth to a baby and family only was able to take her back if she only took five days. So was actually just, you know, physically recovering. Had an infant at home was really sad to be leaving her own to go and care for this other family. Domestic workers caring for wealthy families describe the way in which affluence is often steeped in inequality parents model behavior. Serena out. And sometimes the kids picked up on the way the parents treated her. The ones who barely said hello and regarded her as an employee who clocked in and out, versus those who were more friendly and would sit on the couch and talk, ask about her life. Kids often mimicked the class behavior of their parents. Oh, my goodness. There have been boys that i walk in and they wont acknowledge that im here. Its like, say hi. How are you doing . No response. So if i tell them its time to clean up, theyre like, no, you clean up. Thats your job. Serena recalled cooking a big and then grabbing a bite for herself while she was cleaning up, watching the kids eat. And the kid said to me, why are you eating . Youre not allowed to sit here with us. Not all employing parents like this, of course, but some do just bark orders. They dont really want to chat with me. Talk to me. On top of that, many parents have strict ideas about routines and the way their kids should spend their time. They want these intense rules to upheld even when theyre absent. Theyll be like, this is what the kids have to eat. They like it or not. So i have to give protein shakes, vitamins, everything. But serena had little chance of getting kids to eat food that they didnt want or getting them to turn off the tv when they hardly considered her to be a person at all. Really appreciate how many of sort of routine humiliations that you tried to bring into texture from these hundreds of conversations had over, what, ten years . Right. So it was really a long process of many, many conversations from which you started to spot trends and were able to talk things that were common across many peoples experience. As a sociologist thats something you get to do. Thats a tool that you have that you can bring forward. Can you talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that the mothers in your books of so many of the people, i should say, that you spoke to were themselves mothers and. They were constantly having to motherhood and care work in ways where the sort of intersection, those two aspects of their life really determined their decisions and opportunities. So love for you to speak a little bit to the obstacles they were facing at work and at home. And if you can also just maybe speak a little bit to how their experience of work, family conflict might be different than a more affluent mother. Right. What i think is interesting is when i first got involved in this, i mean, im a mom and a is a mom, right so i was interested in this area of work conflict. I read a lot about it in college and grad school. And when i started doing some of this, i realized that whats really missing from that literature is work, family, conflict for like people who work at starbucks or Grocery Stores or in our homes caring for our children. So you know employees who physically have to be present. Many the moms we spoke with were working part time jobs, so they werent eligible for benefits, even though, you know, almost all of them were working than 40 hours per week. Right. So not only like, you know, my peers, were talking more about like onsite childcare time, not that we dont need all of these kind of benefits. Right. But almost none. The women we spoke with had sick leave. Right. So thats just kind of you know, its like dealing this kind of conflicts, but its such a different level. Such Different Things are at stake. Im thinking of several moms who felt actually like the only childcare to them was unsafe. Right. You know, one moms child, had a never are getting their diaper changed right at Daycare Center and feel it and this was the only Daycare Center that they could find that would accept a childcare subsidy. So then just being confronted with this situation of like do i leave this job, you know, which often happened was a lot of turnover going from one job to another, you know, and i was saying to anna. Like one crappy job to another because theres no route up. So i would say, you know, lack of benefits at work low wage. I think i did just jot down here since were in chicago, one single mom with child. The living wage is 37, 25, 37. 25 per hour. And i get it right. It is. Yeah. So, you know, too low of wages is right. Lack of benefits and then also this kind of just in time scheduling which i was relatively unfamiliar with. So you know, schedules almost like at the beginning, the week or you know, according to how much demand there is in the business. You know, i think even amazon will often give you option to go home. Right. Which for some employees and then some the moms would say, like, of course, i want to go home. Right. But its not go home and get paid for that shift. Its home. You know, you can to go home because there isnt available. So just in times without just in time, child care is a real problem. No route up and out in these jobs is a real problem. And i think know what really struck me was how a shame a lot of the moms felt. Theyre really ashamed. Talk to me about receiving public benefits. I they really wanted to make it clear. Theyre trying to be the best moms they could. They also are really aware of this of intensive parenting. Right. We all are like we want to spend money and spend time and sign our kids up for a bunch of lessons and all of the moms wanted the same i mean they all that they wanted their kids to go to college for instance and so just really being out without the resources to do that and and also which conflicts that wanting to be good employees so you know not wanting to have to call in sick when your is sick or to hide child at work. I mean there were several of child hiding, you know, whether it be in sometimes like in cahoots with your boss, if theyre okay with it. Right. You know, somebody called last minute and canceled my childcare. Can bring my child to work. And then other times, like instance that anna mentioned shop. Right . Right. This was like her last strike. She couldnt call out of work, so she had a five year old. The childcare fell through i think looking from the outside you might regard that as deficient parenting somehow and lot of the moms felt like people looked down them in terms of their parenting like at the kids. Why arent you at the conference. Well, im not at the conference right. Even i feel this way. They want you to be there in the daytime a lot at school. Right. But im working these different jobs. Im trying to provide my children. You know, one other thing is that almost none of the women received any Child Support and 70 of the women we talked to, single parents. Right. So they just dont have enough money in in order to accommodate this kind of really difficult dilemma between work and parenting that a lot of parents face. Right. I mean, when i face it, i purchase care is how i deal with it. And they just didnt have the ability to do that. Yeah i feel like the way in which you just brought in some of the strategies they employed, even with complicated feelings about the judgment of others of society is really. You also talked a lot in the book, i think, about how many of these women, again, of hundreds that you spoke to over ten years were, actively trying to change the conditions in which they were living. They were trying figure out whether they could go to college. They were trying to find sort of Apprenticeship Program. You know, they were actively both working multiple to pay the bills. They were actively and then they were trying to find a route to make this endless hustle easier. Can you talk a little bit about what got in their way and, what some of the kind of efforts were that you saw people engaging in . Yes. So many of the women we spoke with were trying to go to college. I think we that cultural narrative and it is true. Like one of the things you can do. Im a college professor, so i tell my students doing the thing that you can do to not live in poverty right. So especially also because they wanted their kids to go to college, a lot of the moms said, listen, i have to walk the walk. So they were trying to go back to school. Many of you probably know, this post welfare reform, its very to attend college, if youre receiving a welfare benefit. Right. It used to be that college could count as work in terms of your calculation and in some states this is still true. Much more difficult and much more limited. A lot of the interviewing we did was in massachusetts, that does count a certain number of hours. But ill say even as a college professor, you know, even when youre able to use those, you have to get your professor to sign off often dont count homework lab time. So its just very, very difficult. So pre welfare reform, we had many more poor single moms attending college than we do today. And you know, our institutions not set up to support. I would say parenting students in general around 25 of undergraduates are parenting child and despite that that group has some of the lowest of any group so its usually four or 5 earn the degree going for within six years. So thats thats terrible. 95 of them are buying into the system. Many of them are taking out loans. Right. Theyre trying to take classes all different times. I do actually think. That postpandemic this something that has become a little bit easier to take some Classes Online or at home. But i would say from all of our interviewing, that brings up other because whether or not you have technology thats reliable whether or not your child care while youre actually trying to do your job things experience yeah child whether or not you have a wi fi signal reliable right all that is tied and no mean i had students during the pandemic sharing one phone with their whole family. Right. So all of those things are barriers in terms of college. Apprenticeships are something that i learned a lot about for this book and talking to women there are more getting into the trades and this can be a really sustainable paying job if youre able to do it. However, a lot of the women we spoke with were encountering serious. You know all the range from harassment and various ways to lack of support. And again, you know, childcare often crops up. So im thinking of one story of a woman know she actually moved across the country because got into an Apprenticeship Program. But they they tend to start at like four or five in the morning. And so she did have a childcare subsidy, but she couldnt find anywhere to use it at time. So she described to us, you know, going on craigslist just at the time and finding someone who didnt necessarily do childcare but said they would do whatever and she felt about the arrangement. I mean, the arrangement was just to meet the child early in the morning, bring them to the bus. But it wound up that actually like this person failed to pick up one day and cause this really situation for the mom and she just had to give up the Apprenticeship Program and move back. So it really felt like in all these kinds of ways, you know, the women that we were speaking with were trying to break of this cycle and at every turn encountering these kinds of obstacles. Its funny because childcare, i keep thinking, i cant remember the phrase you used. Was it multigenerational or two generation or something . The way in which helping people it through these kinds of transitions in their life, if theyre seeking to go school or whatever, you actually need to provide the support for the people who are providing support for others. Theres this kind of loop were getting stuck in as a society where ones getting enough support in the childcare provision cycle. And so its of repeats it. Does that ring a cord . No. Yes yes. No, it just made me think. And i with all of the i was struck and im sure, you know, this i feel like culturally have a lot of support now for policies like childcare, parental leave. You see like bipartisan support around 70 to 80 . So why and you know, in terms of all of your experience with National Politics and organizing, why is it so hard to pass some of these policies would support all family, you know, why are we stuck in that lot . Well, its a great question. My first thought from so again, im organizer, not an academic or a journalist. And my own experience of this starts from my own perspective of this on, this starts from thinking its not an economic problem that we face when you think about the challenges outlined in your book, its not that theres some unseen hand that is prescribing that working women who are providing these kinds of services to society must be paid very badly, must not have access to child care, and must be living a precarious. Its not an ironclad law. Its political and cultural choice that we have made as a country. And so to get out of that sort of trap that were in is going to require political cultural, social change. And we run up against immediately some of the conditions that we are all familiar with in our politics and society where in the two Major Political coalitions we have, one of them is committed to a number of ideologies, or at least some faction in the Republican Coalition and not maybe every person who adheres there. Theres an important faction, Republican Coalition that fundamentally doesnt believe that women should be working outside the house and also fundamentally thinks that poverty is a personal failing and a moral failing. And a policy or a structural failing. And so those two things combined mean that many of the proposals over the years even though at the popular level, at the voter level, there may be bipartisan support at the level of elected officials, you cannot put together a coalition that will pass those policies because they are trapped by some those ideologies in their coalition a whole. And then on the other side, i would say that some in the Democratic Coalition over time havent sufficiently prioritized taking action on paid leave and child care and Worker Protections and raising worker wages. It just hasnt been enough of a in some cases for long enough, although thats changing, i think, in important ways. I was just saying to amanda that we had only a couple of weeks ago the biden administration, a fleet of really historic. Or i should say executive orders that are plugging some of the gap that is being left by congress, not taking action to improve the quality of life of care workers in this country. Thats a huge deal that theres a suite of orders aimed at improving the lives of care workers and investing in the caring economy. And its a testament to, folks, who are taking action. But i think the the challenges we face are ultimate due to political and cultural that will require us to take together to change. Its not like if we could only the right economists to tackle the problem be fixed. Its a its a social, a cultural its a political issue. So but lets come back to the the lived experiences of the workers you talk to over the course of the last ten years. So child care we were just getting into is really a major issue for so many people. We talked little bit about how childcare got, more press, sort of during the pandemic, but i just want to talk about or i want to ask you to go a little deeper into some of the ways that women that you spoke to struggle with childcare. You spoke of a couple of, you know, getting someone maybe didnt feel safe. Were there other cases where that you can think of that are important to sort of bring to light ways in which childcare either was too expensive, unavailable quality was bad or it just didnt work for some other reason. Right. I definitely would say that childcare was the number one obstacle the women were facing. And you know that in time scheduling, right . Theres sometimes this idea that low income women dont want to use centers. And i didnt really find that mean. I really came across. They just knew how astronomically expensive they were. Right. We do have some childcare subsidies that are available, but the waiting list can be up to two years long to get a childcare. We also. And to get a spot right and thats actually for that can be for all moms of all income levels. Childcare especially between older five is really difficult to to come across in this country. And so, you know, cobbling together a often with family and friends. Who are you know, in many cases also low income people who have frequent emergency things that they have to handle. So it might not be the most reliable care. And then just this fear of, like i said, the kids being in unsafe circumstances was really driving a lot in terms of trying to find childcare. So in in i think georgia in, atlanta, specifically in focus groups, 60 of the moms had lost because of childcare arrangements through and that just rang true throughout different places where we were talking to moms. So it can be like the gap in the morning, it can be all daytime, it can be like these warehouse where its appealing because all of the moms want it to be present parents. A lot of them talked about like, could i take a mothers hours job . They were often looking for employment, like in schools, public schools. But interestingly when they found positions in schools, they wouldnt like unionized positions in schools, they would be kind of outside of that a lot of grant funding. So its just not paid in the same way you dont get the same benefits. But just that being able to get my child off the bus, that was like really a priority for a lot of the moms helped them with homework and then sometimes leave again right so if they could find a job that was overnight i would often say to them, when do you sleep right . Because the schedule that theyre setting up, i, i actually really need at least 7 hours to function as a parent. So that was something that was resounding with me. And so, you know, there are models out. I do feel like childcare is a, you know, an issue where were getting some traction. So if you didnt know in the recent in the midterm elections right, theres a Ballot Initiative that passed in new. That guaranteed basically a right in that state for children to have universal childcare from age five. Thats huge, right . I mean i dont think theyve totally figured out how thats going to work as of yet. But, you know, we have portland, oregon, you know universal child care just rolling out this fall for three and four year olds. And and cities like new york now chicago. Yes. And this is not only i mean, one of the first states to do was oklahoma, which is not a particularly Child Welfare friendly. I think i can say. But the way that theyre doing it is just extend adding kindergarten down. Right. So its more palatable, i think, when we are able to legislate something already exists, right. And expand the program. But i mean, during the pandemic, i think we really recognize school is child care for a lot of parents. Were relying it in this way. So i think the more we can expand and come to depend on these programs and dont get me wrong. I mean, i think if we have a system of universal child care in this country that everyone uses the system will be a better quality. Right. And it wont be stigmatized. A lot of the moms are talking about sending to center where they take vouchers and that center is known as being somewhere where else wants to go. And its of low quality. So if you have a system thats universal for everyone, i think that be really beneficial and a game changer. And like i had mentioned, i mean, in portland specifically and in some other places, part the part of the push is to look at how were treating Child Care Workers. I mean, the average wage for a Child Care Worker in this country is around 12. And this for caring for children, which i think almost any parent that you would ask would say thats one of the most important roles to them. Right. Is who is caring for their child. So the portland plan, at least everyone in the system. So teachers, aides and anyone working in the system makes at least dollars an hour. Right. So they have that included . I think theyre talking that and i mean building that into the system and making child care more of a sustainable career route for people i think is really important, too. And actually several of the moms in the book and i was i thought this was really ingenious they had turned to child care as like what they could do for a job. Right. So one of the several of the had interviewed at Child Care Centers assuming that they would be to send their children there and really like they would say, well theyre offered me a discount, but the discount is still would make it more than they would earn. Right. Which just makes no sense. Right. How does that. So. So several moms in the book open to child care or daycare arrangements in their own home and that was the way that they could watch their children and so you know like the portland plan in portland does allow that. So they have Daycare Centers, they have family daycare you can apply to be certified are programs to help with that all parents get you know a certain dont want to speak incorrectly im not exactly expert in portland but they get a certain of hours and then low income if you make less than a certain wage you get more hours, you can qualify nontraditional hours. There are. Some centers providing overnight care. So that kind of a comprehensive system, i think would help the moms that we talked to so much would require a pretty significant investment. So one of the tragedies in the last few years or in my opinion, a tragedy the last few years, is that in this kind of the first two years of the biden administration, of course, there was a significant debate about what would be included in the build back better package as it was then called, eventually resulted in the inflation reduction reduction act as the major fleet of legislation that did pass mostly not including the kinds of investments in care or a paid leave policy which so many advocates had been fighting for. But one thing that i think that whole conversation lifted up was that to get this right, were going to need hundreds of billions dollars of Public Investment in child care and in other care policies, this country and a comprehensive sort of system upgrade, because the patchwork that were currently working with doesnt work for anyone, neither the workers nor those who are getting the care. So how i would love to also ask you to speak a little bit to the paid leave side of the equation. You talked to lots of women had gave birth and then went right back to work and didnt have to paid leave. I think one of the stats that you shared was maybe that of the Domestic Workers, nine out of ten Domestic Workers in this country, nine in ten do not have any paid time period. So what just what were some of the that you encountered when it comes a lack of paid leave influencing or affecting their life and to continue to move themselves forward . Yeah. I mean, when i would bring up things paid leave, they would almost like laugh at me, you know, thats just not in the universe. What they were expecting at jobs. But i do remember woman saying, if they would give me medical insurance like paid when i have a baby and i would never leave that company. And that just really stuck me because, you know, even in my own peer, i do always feel like you know when you have a good experience returning work and a compassionate employer who really helps to ease situation. Youre much loyal to them. Right. And i really feel like, you know, the women are talking to theres one woman, you know, somebody are incredibly bright, straight students when theyre able to go to college. I mean, really like one woman that im thinking of have had as in all of her classes. She actually wound up getting bumped out of the Scholarship Program that she was in because she wasnt able to take more than two classes at a time, which is really just an example of how system is not designed for parents designed for parents. But so. So yeah i think like just generally in terms of paid leave, it would be so helpful. I mean a, lot of times i think theres an anecdote in the book about a mom who had a difficult pregnancy. I mean a lot of times theyre just going back to work. But for some people, intervention is required. Youre in the hospital, right . And so she was let go from her job on the phone while she was in the hospital. So she wound up becoming a victim because she wasnt able to pay. And then the ultimate fear for all of these moms is losing their child. Because often they have, you know, because theyre receiving benefits. They do have state interventions in their lives and. So theyre just constantly thinking about, am i going to get, you know, somehow in trouble . And so that mom we talk about in the book actually wound stockpiling the medication that she was receiving in the hospital and selling it and you know you could look at that from the outside and be like, oh, my god, shes, you know, dealing drugs. But this is like the way that she was able to come home and, you know, afford to get into a new place, keep her child with her. Right. So its i think you can also read it as just like really resourceful, right. And like figuring things out. So you can protect your child. So, yeah, definitely i think paid leave also and just leave that, you know, allows you to care for family members. I mean, we were talking about how its not always necessarily your child. You know, you might have a sick parent or someone else in your universe. When you say women do, 70 of the care work globally, thats often for people in their community, their neighbors, their friends. Right. Its falling to them to engage in that care work. And then we have to be able to reconcile that with employment. Right. Because thats what we ultimately, you know, we want a System People can actually live in through all stages of a real life, not just a sort worker unit life, but a real life. You get sick, you might have kids, you need. And yeah, thats really helpful. But so you do have more, i think, experience of like on the ground campaigns that people do you have like advice for people what they can do in terms supporting things like child care leave and those kind of campaigns. Yeah, sure. I was to amanda that theres a great susan quote that i came across recently which is that compassion is an unstable emotion. It needs to be translated into action or it withers, which been sitting with. I think that one thing your book is beautifully doing and its an important contribution is activating compassion and hopefully activating, which is a move towards action. So i first of all, would just say that there is no single bullet. And i sometimes in my own life during the trump years, i would sometimes joke that i became my friends sort of personal resistance concierge like. They would come to me and say, what can i do with my specific skills and attributes and place in the world to contribute to stopping trump . And but the thing that i. I laughed about it. But the thing that was, is that we all do have something unique offer to struggles for Economic Justice and social justice in this country. And the world. Thats true. It is true that theres no shortcut to building Mass Organizations that can change politics and culture. All of us have to move together. There is no secret special recipe for just me. Theres my to organizations, in this case, moms rising parents together or the National Domestic alliance are all good groups that i would recommend joining supporting because of their advocacy specifically on these issues. Among others, the poor campaign, which is an outgrowth of National Welfare Rights Movement and league, certainly joining unions, especially those that represent workers in low wage jobs, is a powerful we can take. I think one of the contribute factors to the kind of trap that were in as a country is the decline of the labor movement, which was not just an inevitable decline, the result of concerted attacks on labor power. And so i think theres really no replace for making the phone calls going to the meetings, signing the petitions, going to the marches when theyre organized and making a kind of visible contribution to there being a community of people agree that the status quo doesnt work for us. And so thats one thing id say for. People who are themselves domestic employers, which is actually a cohort of people that really here in the absence, the federal government taking the actions we needed to take individual have a responsibility to do best. I was heartened to see the biden executive order package includes a template for a sample domestic employer or kind of agreement that people can go use. Thats been something people have been sort of freelancing for people who have the means to hire a Domestic Worker in their home. But in terms elections, i, i dont, i, in my own sort of career through organizing and social change work, at some point i thought, man, its really messed up that our 501c3 nonprofit law has many, many people organizing in contexts where no ones allowed to talk about electing or defeating. And actually, the people power really matter. Elections really matter. And so for folks who care about advancing access to child care and improving worker conditions and building out and investing in the caring economy, along with like enacting comprehensive immigration, which does is such a factor. I didnt come up as much in your book but the ways in which people are more vulnerable if theyre here without full status the ways that you know the abortion conversation is now so live and such a kind of manifestation of i think some of the same dynamics that if you care about these issues you should also in addition to joining an organization and being part of a broad movement, you should also be your part to push forward in the context of of supporting candidates and parties are going to be proworker, prowomen and pro childcare all pro things that we need as a country that has left this gaping hole in social safety net. So those are a few things. Those are not all the answers, but those are a few things. I do feel like theres a a a sense sometimes of hopelessness which is actually best countered by talking to someone who is themselves a Domestic Worker involved in organizing to build power for their agenda. The women that i know who are Domestic Workers and are organizing in conditions that are as challenging as many of the ones you in the book, theyre not hopeless. They are determined. And that determination, i think, is fuel for folks who are would be allies as well. So with that thats my take. Lets turn it back to you, dear. I, i do want to sort of turn to something that you close book with. So my own politics is a politics that at least reaches for a solidarity across lines of difference, across lines, issues we care about, across class lines where we need to show for each other. This is true in particular for people who have more financial or political or cultural power offer. They need to show up where they can. You close the book in a kind of similar spirit. You close the book in conversation with lang lang, chancy who . Whos the executive director of the Advocacy Organization 9 to 5. And she told you, im not looking for allies anymore, but coconspirator who take risks. So i wonder if you can speak to a little bit like whats message you took away from that, from that quote, and what do you want audiences think about or do in a new when they encounter the stories in your book . Yes. And i will say, i mean, the book has been out for a little while now. So ive been heartened just by how many people come and say, what can i do. Right. Because and i do think youre doing the first thing or im doing the first thing, which just like these conversations can sometimes uncomfortable to about or talk about with friends. And so i think visibility of these kind of stories is really important. And so and so to have them be and out there is one thing that that everyone can do. I usually talk about you know kind of personal level on the personal level, like anna said, thinking about if you employed help in your household i mean, what is that relationship you able to advocate for the domestic in your household . Do you have a contract with them that outlines what in terms of sick days and pay and all those kinds of things. I think sometimes then sort of stepping back and then thinking about if you were in a workplace like how is everyone treated in your workplace . So im a professor at university of hartford and, you know, only relatively recently became aware that like parental leave varies, if youre a staff member or youre a faculty member or, youre an admin. Right. And this is true in companies. So you know, the New York Times did kind of an expose, you know, starbucks, corporate versus like if you are barista. Right. So kind becoming aware, like what are all the different if some companies are offering very generous parental leave instance to those executives. But you could in the bottling factory for like 20, 30 years and not qualify for same. And so so making yourself aware of that and you know university of massachusetts is a good example that we provide in the book. So they had a really drastically different policy for leave specifically for like janitorial staff, the lo the lower tiers of their pay scale versus faculty. And i think it was one of these things that people just didnt know about. Right. So once there a campaign to kind of raise the level awareness, then people got on board and really, you know they had lectures and demonstrations about it and it changed the policy. So to me thats really promising so i think you know visibility talking about it figuring out in your own of employment and in your own home. And then lastly, of course institutionally so supporting, you know, federal leave support paid universal childcare for all. I would also just say ive really learned a lot about these different efforts, many of them are moving much more quickly on the state level. So whats happening in your own state . Right. Because we see in new mexico, we see these different programs. Theres actually Many National models for this. Right. If we think about afdc, the school lunch program. Right. These are programs that started in states. Right. A lot of states start to get good programs. People start to rely on those benefits. Right. Like they appreciate them. Welfare benefits are not just for poor people. They just support the wellbeing of all people. Right. So if we get some good programs that people are really buying into, think in a bipartisan way in different states. I think that push. Right. Federal legislation, i dont know how far down the line, but i think at least thats the hope. Its the. And in a moment where so much our public conversation is on things like i just been reflecting right on the fact that neither care work nor the hard, important and actually deeply gratifying of politics and Movement Work can be done by and in which perhaps makes it all the more important. I dont know. Just saying. All right. Well, thank you so much, amanda. I were at time. And i want to thank again our wonderful, wonderful hosts, seminary books, with their amazing crew of staff and loyal readers and members. And for folks who came out, were grateful for you. Happy to stick around and chat with after the event. Yes, thank you. Thanks again for. Youre wonderful. Yeah. Thank you, amanda for your and congratulations for a tremendous book. Thats a real offering to this course. Cheers