Black leadership oral History Collection posted by university of virginia posted by hostedity hsoted by university of virginia. She talks about growing up surrounded by artists and musicians. She also discusses her early political career before her election the senate as a democrat from illinois. She served as ambassador to new zealand during the clinton administration. The interview approximately an hour and 45 minutes was conducted by julian bond. Carol moseley braun, thank you for our explorations in black leadership should best leadership. Senator braun thank you. Happy to be here. And made a huge difference, because in that year, or maybe the year after, we moved from the heart of chicagos black belt to a neighborhood that was on the cutting edge of integration. As a result, i was able to go to a public school. Starting in the third grade. It had previously been all white. Traumas as a result of that. This was a result of the time of that whole nuclear scare. When rocks would be thrown would duckows, we and cover under the desks. Father who was himself avactivist joined with our al raby and the community i forget what it all stood for, but it was a group organized to protest the segregation of chicago schools. Mr. Bond which later brought dr. King to chicago. Senator braun exactly. I actually marked with him on the housing march. They were using something called willis wagon. wagon. Willis the superintendent of the school was named bruce ben willis. He used these trailers. In the black neighborhood, you had these trailers to augment the population of black students and under crowding in the white schools. They started protesting that to say that brown versus board of education requires that the schools be integrated to the extent possible. We have to get it fixed here in chicago. Mr. Bond do you remember at this young age, when you go to this new school, did you have any larger thoughts on what this meant to the larger world, the larger United States . What brown might mean nationwide . Senator braun at that point, i did not. I did later. We had in unusual household, because my parents did not consider themselves bohemians, but we were surrounded by artists and musicians. People from a lot of different walks of life. We always had an integrated household. There were always discussions of Race Relations and development in the larger communities. Even as a small child, i was acutely aware of the efforts of people to build an integrated society. Mr. Bond im guessing hopeful that it will be a good thing that will happen . Senator braun i just assumed, werese, as a child, they black people in my family, white people in my family, asian people in my family. I grew up in this multicultural view, so i did not see these early problems. My earliest recollection i had, my greatgrandfather had a farm in alabama that is still in the family. We would go there in the summertime. I could not be more than eight years old, maybe nine years old or 10 years old, and we would take the train down. We got off in montgomery. ,e got off the train, my mother myself, and my little brother. We were thirsty, but the water fountains were segregated. My mother would not let us drink out of the colored water fountain. So my brother is screaming on the floor. Some colored water. He thought it was going to come out green, blue, or read. He did not understand the implications of what that is all was all about. Mr. Bond we are now approaching anniversary for brown. What do you think it has turned out to mean . Senator braun i think it has had very mixed reviews. On the one hand, the integration of the schools was achieved on some levels. Faculty, in regards to in regards to hiring those kind of things have occurred across the country. On the other, i think it has ghettoizationthe of Public Education. A lot of constituencies to pay for the Public Schools vanished in the postbrown environment. There are those who say there are a lot of Different Reasons for it and that race and integration were not the only reason, but i imagine it is documentable. When you look at the level of public support for Public Education nationwide, it is so diminished from the standing of Public Education 50 years ago. The kind of Financial Support that communities gave to Public Education. That is a phenomena across the board even with education highest levels. Think thee time, i constituencies for Public Education was changed by the brown decision. Mr. Bond i read something you said in 1994 that the most interesting change in america since 1954 was the way in which attitudes about life station have changed. What did you mean by that . Senator braun the notion that blacks were relegated to a specific set of roles in society. The fact that women were relegated to a specific set of roles in society, but ethnicity in society. That ethnicity limited people to what they thought they could do. A sense of station in life. It has changed the most. I think that is what the culture revolution of the 1950s and 60s reflected more than any anything else. That change in station. Andries of realignments adjustments in how we define Civil Society. By any standard, you are a remarkably accomplished worsen. I any standard accomplished person. Standard by any standard. Senator braun thank you. Mr. Bond without the brown decision, do you think you would have been a different person . Senator braun without a doubt. All the leadership of the Civil Rights Movement from those days transformed this country and opened up doors and made it possible for people like myself to come through and have the a college mens that are now part of my resume. Have the accomplishments that are now part of my resume. Senator,e to become a none of it would have happened without the efforts of people who put their own lives at risk to open up, integrate, and change the society of the United States. Mr. Bond who are the people that have most shaped you and help you develop . Senator braun other than my parents, which is pretty obvious, i have been blessed to have people come into my life at pivotal moments and make all the difference. When i dropped out of college, ipped out of high school met someone who essentially turned my whole vision around and suggested to me that i could horizons. Roaden my mary hopkins made a big difference in that point of my life. When i got to the state , senator alexander was elected at the same time that i was. However, she was a generation older. She made a huge difference. There were people along the way who touched my life at times when i might have taken one road or another. By their influence, it has made a big difference. Mr. Bond you mentioned your mother and father a moment ago. He said they were not bohemians, but they live in the artistic world. What about them . Senator braun my parents had an unusual marriage to begin with. It was a small to us marriage tumultuous marriage from the beginning. My mother was not social. She had a little group of people who gravitated to her. She was seen as a sort of earth people who attracted towards her, but she was not very outgoing. My father was very outgoing. He was involved in movements and causes. He always engaged with the outside world. Heesult, he wound up was a police officer. Being in Law Enforcement was his day gig, but he did play seven instruments. He played the saxophone part time professionally. E was in a band i actually have a picture of the band. My mother is sitting on the sidelines. I think she was singing that night. He played in a band, and the result was that the musicians of that day and time were very much part of our household. Up knowing charlie parker. Dated Dexter Gordon for a while. All these musicians were around as i was growing up. In addition to the musicians, there were the artists. Arts. Grew up around the , i thinks or otherwise that also influenced my worldview. Mr. Bond i read someplace that you describe the difference between your mother and father as the difference between booker t. Washington and wb to voice wb deploys w. B. Dubois. How did that play out . Senator braun she had this expression that you do the best job where you planted. Whether you are a street sweeper or the president of the United States, you do the best job you can, and you be proud of your work. A this isuch the job, this is the task. She did not see the world outside our family is very relevant. He did see the world, and he was very concerned about the world. He did what he could in his way to make a difference. , i think,ial activism was born of that. First, a woman by the name of Anna Langford the first female, black, alter woman in chicago. Meet a black, woman alderman. There was another woman judge. He took me to meet her. Mind, and soroad we would we were raised catholic. That was a kind of family compromise, but we did explore other religions with him. Fromuld take us two things buddhist temples to jewish centers. S, muslims sunday, go to mass on and then on the saturday before or later on that sunday, we would go to some other service once a month. Chance without knowing it was part of my education, i had a chance to learn about World Religions of an early age. ,r. Bond about Anna Langford did this put something in your mind that you could do this someday . Senator braun i do not think so. Hink my attitude was more no, i dont. I not think of myself did not envision a political career as all at all until i was running for office. It was not something i thought relevanceng any real to my own career. Mr. Bond what about your grandmother . Senator braun i had very different grandmothers. My mothers mother, who i call my guardian angel, she went to mass every morning. Every day she went to mass. She lived a very structured, calm life. Tragedy was filled with she was a person in whom i nurturing, refuge, comfort, and guidance. Was a blackndmother nationalist. Theas what they called men. Nt the race been muslims from north africa i gather. That has kind of been lost in the midst of time. Anyways, she became a muslim. I went with her to hear a light to mohammed speak Elijah Mohammed speak. There was a convention in gary, indiana in 1972. I went under the auspices of someone who was a mentor to me at the time. I looked up, and there is this little woman coming down the walk through the gymnasium. She had on this muslim are garb. I asked her what she was doing near, and she said she was here to be with her people. She was very much a black nationalist. Being muslim. An amalgamation of muslim beliefs that Elijah Mohammed represented. Mr. Bond your mother went to dillard . Senator braun yes. Mr. Bond i wonder if that is connected to your seeking the type of education you suck you sought . Not necessarily law school, but that you had to go to college. Absolutely. N college was a big deal in my family. When i dropped out, that was awful. , when i dropped out, i got a good paying job working for the Chicago Housing authority. They made me a community and tenant relations eight. It meant that i went around and gave poor people five day notice is to get out of the project. As it turned out, hawkins had just started what he called the program. In which he tried to use sports to try and reclaim kids from some underprivileged homes and circumstances. Sports as a hook to get them in for tutoring, to broaden their horizons and get them interested in other things. Just by osmosis i was not technically part of his group, what the people i were but the people i were in charge of work. As a result, when the summer was over, at that point i had fire in my belly to get myself to school and do something. Did you take any musical ability or interest from your father . He was such an accomplished musician playing seven instruments. What about you . Senator braun absolutely nothing. I played the clarinet little bit. We had a pno in the house always. A teacher would hit a pno in a piano in the house always. I had a teacher who would hit my hand with the ruler. That was about the end of that. I was home one day practicing the clarinet, and my uncle told you might want to think about taking up something else. That was the end of me playing the clarinet. Mr. Bond how did your fathers political activism rub off on you . Senator braun it was a generation apart, but he was always against the machine. This is important in terms of people politics, because think of the daley machine with chicago politics. There were a group of internet independents out there who thought of the machine as antithetical to civil rights. That was always the side of the equation that he was on. He worked in the campaign for the first, one of the early black politicians who challenged the daley machine. He ran as a reform candidate. My father was in real estate at that time. The office that he and his partner had come up when they had a meeting for the candidate, the city inspector came to say that the water was leaking and da, so theyda da shut them down. You can imagine there was some anger and antipathy towards the daley machine in our household. Its funny, because later i got to know rich daily, the son. There was no will no small amount of irony. Our household had been religiously antidaily down the road. Mr. Bond was there a lots of discussion about the machine . Illinois politics or United States politics . Inator braun he was active local Campaign Efforts and union Campaign Efforts. There was a streetcar fight to get blacks jobs working for the transportation company. He would do things like that. His political vision was more national and international. Aso not remember him being involved with illinois politics as national or international. I do not think he voted in primaries, because he got he was concerned because he did not want to a clear declare which party you belong to. I do not expect to be that. I did not expect to stage a sit in. But it did happen. It seemed the right thing to not move, so i did not. Mr. Bond a moment ago, you mentioned marching with dr. King during the housing struggles in chicago. Tell us about that. How old were you then . Senator braun i think i was 15 years old or 16 years old. I was still in high school. My mother had cautioned me. At this point, my mother and father were split up. We lived with my mother. I remember her saying, you do not want to get mixed up with that. There is bound to be trouble. That was just a sign to me that i had to go out. So, we marched down 60 seven st 67 street to get to gauge park. There were nuns in front of me. I remember this vividly as if it was yesterday. It was a kind of turning point. We marched, and then rocks and bottles started flying. A guy i was marching with was hit by a rocket. Blood was pouring down his face, and i was just portrayed horrified. Cap calls were coming from the ls were comingl from the side. Catholic family, in the nuns marching in front of me were being called horrible names. I was horrified at that. There was a guy standing by the side of the road who was my age. Maybe a little bit younger, 12 years old or 13 years old. Gowas yelling, semihumans home at one point. Ye we marched to the park itself. Violence was so horrible i do not recollect gunshots, but i know there were rocks, bottles, bricks, glass. They put the women and children in the middle of the circle. There were activists around that. The hardcore activists were on the outside perimeter. It got so bad that dr. King was moved to the middle of the circle. He was as close to me as this girl right over there. Because you sort of cover your head up like this, that we were down on the ground. He was standing there and looking just as calm in the face of all this. I remember it was an epiphany for me, because i was ready to throw something back. That was my first reaction. The next rock that falls near me is going right back out there. The tiffany in that moment or me the uks any in that moment iphany in that moment for me was the real power of nonviolence, of peaceful resistance. His example of claiming the moral high ground. He had the victory. Had he stooped, he would have been on the same level against whom he was fighting. I then became committed to nonviolence and his movement compared to some of my friends who were beginning to gravitate towards the panthers, getting the gun and shooting back. All that. Mr. Bond earlier, because your mother and father separated, you moved into a neighborhood with a spectacular name. What was that name . Senator braun the bucket of blood . Mr. Bond what was that like for you . Senator braun it was rather traumatic. It is one of those life traumas i am grateful for now. It probably set my brother on a did of destruction, but i not think i would have been as grounded in the black experience they had not been for that. If it had not been for that. We grew up in a community and a family, again among blacks, we were not rich people by any means, that we were well off but we were well off. My parents were not social part ofe part of the black luge was the bhuj rich. E black they were not part of that, but they were also part of the black intellectuals. That was where they were. I really did not have a real sense of what the poverty was like. Degradation that came with the sort of grinding poverty that the urban ghettos represented. , have seen poverty before especially on the farm. I had seen People Living in houses with dirt floors. Outhouses, all that. I had not seen it with people piled into tenements. People getting shot on the street corner. Mr. Bond what did that do for you . Senator braun i think it really helped round out and help me develop in important ways. It gave me an understanding and appreciation of the effects of not just slavery and jim crow but of oppression and particularly economic oppression. Me another kind of vision about my own Life Commitments and my own path should that included owned path. That included doing what i could to push back and be in opposition to the forces that had created the kind of poverty i experienced. Mr. Bond im guessing that is one of the reasons he decided to become a lawyer. What did you think that would give you . Senator braun i thought being a abilityould give me the to use the law, which is the instrument of social control, to use that instrument in a constructive and po