Were doing a series of episodes about, the declaration of independence. Why the declaration of independence . Well, the subject may be old, but the issues are fresh. The American Revolution is current events. I actually got that line from our guest today. Hello, Denver Brunsman historian at George Washington university. Welcome to the washington times. Thanks, martin. Its to be here. Yeah, i dont think i could get a better guest because youre the guy who teaches the classes about George Washington at the university named after him and teach them at mount vernon to tell us a little bit of the work you do. Yes, im incredibly lucky im a professor and the chair of the History Department at George Washington university. So i get to teach a range of classes on early american history, including the revolution, war of 1812. And the one you mentioned, my favorite, George Washington and his world, which takes place in his world at his mount vernon estate for gw students, thats exciting. Although on the other hand, George Washington didnt sign the declaration of independence. I mean, a slacker. I know, i know. What was what was he doing . Well, what was he doing . It was getting ready to fight the british. So he was in new york just welcoming. He might say, intercepting the largest armada of soldiers and sailors to cross the atlantic. To that point, about 30,000 british soldiers arriving in new york and was there waiting for them. Thats right. At this end and around this time, theyre planning or already underway an invasion of canada as well. Thats right. Thats right. Yeah. Of 76. Yeah. A lot of people dont realize i mean we have lexington and concord in the spring of 75 but this was a continental war by july of 1776 is happening up and down east coast all the way into canada and all the way down to the colonies. June of the prior year. The battle of bunker hill. So yeah, war already underway for more than year. Maybe i needed to find the john hancock at george. Well because he had a big a signature of the 56 people who signed the document. Thats right. What do i open the the by saying how the American Revolution is teaching current events. Well, thats what you told me. What do you mean by that . Yeah. So when i went to talk to students, you know, one thing we do today, we need to do as educators is is show that history is relevant and i dont think theres a more relevant event in american than the American Revolution because we live in the society and with the frame of government that it created and so a lot of our Politics Today lot of the same issues i think you know go back to that period and you see these patterns. And so i think if you can clue students in to that, then they not only see the past in different way, but you see your own world today in a different way. Yeah. I mean, we still inhabit the political world of these 18 states, right . Thats right. And i think thats why thats why were having this conversation. Thats why we look back to this moment so much. Not that events were frozen in time. Lots have happened since then. There was a civil war just eight years later. Right. But i mean, often raised this question with some of my other guests on the podcast. Why do we go back to the founders or the framers of the constitution or the revolutionaries of the 1770s for guidance, for advice . How to frame legislation today, for guidance in our culture, right . Yeah. Yeah. These premodern darwin men. Well, its not really a profound question or answer were still inhabiting their political world. Were on their constitution, unlike the french say, who may talk napoleon today, but theyre on their what, their 18th constitution or Something Like that. Thats right . Thats right. As americans, we can point the start of the country. Theres a start date and these are the people there that created it. And so they continue to influence us. Margaret thatcher, the the former Prime Minister of britain, had saying that the countries of europe were by history, meaning they formed organically over time, whereas the United States was formed by philosophy that is formed at specific moment in time. And thats a nation founded on ideas. Yeah, many origin stories are based on ethnicity, religion, culture, religion whatever. Yeah. Although i mean, whether or not, you can point to a single date, the founding of a nation. Well get into that. Some say 16, 19 is a better date rather than 1776. Well return to issue in a bit. I mean, for most of my relatively short life, the revolutionary era always had this primordial place in our collective consciousness, as weve been discussing, not necessarily source of unity, but a common story, an origin story that was a source of inspiration for all americans. Ever since, regardless of what jefferson, in his pen with the editing of adams and franklin, when he wrote those infamous or famous words, timeless, immortal words, right . Regardless of what they meant at the time, those words were source of inspiration for all of us while the civil war is the one that continues to divide us. But do you see that changing . Do you see the revolution as a source of division, too . You know, maybe a little. I think its still the event that i think most americans embrace. Both sides, you know, liberals in, conservatives doesnt matter across the political. I think everyone can find something there that is inspiring. But i think, you know, the job scholars and of of research has shown that there are problematic things in our past even in a past that we embrace. And i think thats true with the declaration. Well, certainly. And the declaration and the of which it was a part was not complete. It didnt end slavery, but you can also make the argument, and i do that it kicked off the antislavery cause in this country, the first of its kind right. Certainly wasnt perfect. And wars all wars are horrible and they all affect average people worse than the elites in society for sure. So theres that. I mean, something you mentioned to me when we were preparing get together here is that the declaration was always part of a long, progressive tradition in our country as a source of inspiration. Martin luther king at the march on washington. The anniversarys coming up this year when the architects of our republic, the magnificent words of the constitution in the declaration of independence, they were signing promissory note to which every was to fall heir. We have come to cash this check. 1848 seneca falls. Elizabeth cady stanton. Her famous declaration of sentiments was read and adopted, modeled after the declaration of independence and september 2nd, 1945, in asia. Do you know where im going with this . I do. I will not write the enemies of men. Ho chi minh proclaims the independent democratic republic of vietnam in hanoi in front of a massive audience. World war two is over. The had yet to try to re colonize vietnam and the first lines of his speech repeat verbatim the second paragraph of americas. Yeah he doesnt he doesnt even change them. Yeah yeah. Yeah. So i think the jefferson writes those words and theyre adopted by the Continental Congress and by for 1776, you know, all men created equal and i think ever then any groups in American Society that didnt werent experiencing equality certainly wanted a piece of that, whether it was marginalized people color or whether it was women. You know, you mentioned seneca falls. You know, they their declaration of sentiments is all men and women are created equal. Yes. And and so yeah, i think it was it was really kind of a beacon it was a goal for for different groups. And i think thats still true. I mean, i think still used in different social movements because its incredibly powerful, you know, inspiring words. So it is a fair question. Referring to my previous somewhat tangled question. Yeah, yeah. What they meant versus the inspiration that came later. Its a fair question as to what and company didnt mean just using the word man. For instance, all men are created. Yeah. Yeah. Did they mean only males or all human beings . I mean, can get really semantic about this, but whats your take on that. Yeah. Yes, i see this in two ways. I, i think in enlightenment sense, you know, this is the age of enlightenment, this age of reason in which they talked in universals. I think on one level, jefferson saying certainly all men and all humans. And i think thats i think its an abstract level. I think in reality, certainly in jeffersons reality, that phrase, you know, if written in a very legalistic sense, would all white men are created equal . Because that was you know, that was the gains of different groups from the revolution. You know they werent there werent equal but but you know, i that throughout time other have taken those words and have also thought of them in universal ways. Another one is abraham lincoln. You know, the gettysburg address when he quotes, you know when he quotes jefferson, hes saying all men, black and white, are created equal. So, so i think one thing we should be grateful for as americans is our country was born in this time enlightenment of the start of the ideas of and ideals of universal liberty. And i want to get into the philosophic underpinnings or the philosophical inspiration for or the writers of the declaration. In a moment, the title of this series of podcasts im doing in history, as it happens, is the radical declaration. So yeah, was the declaration radical. What do you what would you mean by radical if you agree with that. Yeah. Yeah yeah, i think it was. And you know that doesnt mean that it was completely original. Its its drawing on a lot of things. I think the document thats the most underrated is actually drawing on is the virginia declaration of penned primarily by george mason, which happened in june of 1776. It also declared all men equal. It uses the phrase, it uses the word happiness of and they didnt mean like, ha ha, im happy to. Yeah, they meant happiness as in contentment. Yeah, satisfying life. You a satisfying like maybe an equality of opportunity. The chance and i and we dont have debate from the second Continental Congress about the words all men are created equal. We dont know if people said, oh, thats going too far, but we do have some of that evidence when it was discussed in the virginia legislature. Sure. And there was some blowback. There was some discussion about what do we mean, enslave people . I mean, what what are we saying here . Yeah. And in that particular debate certainly as virginia did and slavery. But decided that they were going to go with this enlightenment sense of i think that was the same decision made by the the second Continental Congress. Jack cove has argued that the authors meant americans as a people were entitled to the same rights to selfgovernance meant as other nations of the earth, not in the way we talk about it today. We all have civil liberties. Sure. Whats your i mean, youve been discussing an already, but. Yeah. Yeah. What rico saying. Yeah. Yeah. So i mean i mean, jack might be right about the moment like when, when they make that. But i think that, you know, different are interpreted over time they have a life of their own and i think that certainly happened with the declaration. I think thats one of the most exciting things because as you teach american, i think one thing thats really neat for for students to show how over time different groups come in under this umbrella of equality. And we, the people in these great phrases in our founding documents, which might have been limited at the time but have become expansive, they didnt have ho chi men in mind. Sure. Right. I mean, you know, so its even inspired other nations. Yeah. Maybe this has happened to you in all your writing through your career. You mean something, but then somebody later on, years later says, you know, actually, i interpret this differently than maybe even the author intended. Yeah, yeah. I think thats absolutely the case. Well certainly today we americans, despite what i said before about maybe the revolution and we could talk a little about that later, too, about it, whether its a proslavery revolution in the 1619 project about, whether the revolution is still a source of unity or division, i think for the most part, americans see it as a common story about origins. Its a source of inspiration, but we tend to project our own ideas back on those men. If they were writing for the ages did they get the sense at all that they were writing for all time . You know its hard to know. Theyre immortal, man. Yeah, in a funny way. I mean, they did. I mean, i, they know theyre on the stage of history. This is, this is actually part of the enlightenment. Their thinking, the long term. And, you know, a lot of the letters theyre writing, i think they expected people to read them someday mean theyre certainly saving them. And think thats true with the declaration that jefferson and the committee that puts together the and the congress that approves it, theyre kind of doing two things. I mean, i think theres a shot at posterity and and the soaring rhetoric at the beginning, i think, is, you know, going for that. But then theres some just, you know, brass politics in the declaration where they want to persuade the American People that is the right course. And they also want to attract other nations, particularly france, to support the cause. And theyre dealing with some pragmatic process sake. Yeah, problems there because they had been towards independence for a while, were going to return to that. I mean, just want to stay on this high level, maybe a little bit of an esoteric, although how do your students react to this when you talk about the declaration the way were discussing it now, are they excited by it or do they roll their eyes and say, oh, those they didnt mean, you know, all men are created . Yeah. No, i think thats a good question. I mean, young people are naturally skeptical and thats something i enjoy teaching. I always keep you on your toes. But, you know, this is a class when i teach the American Revolution, it never has trouble enrolling. It fills up. I think people are eager learn about it and and the students are hungry for the complexity and think i think if they get the complexity and if they learn the full story, even if some of thats not flattering to the country, i think it actually makes them appreciate some of the soaring rhetoric and the ideals that were talking about even more, because then they feel like, okay, well, this honest. Its not, you know. No ones forcing me to believe that. Yeah, well weve only been talking about the opening third of the declaration, by the way, i gave you a copy of the independent. See, i have one too. I went to the National Archives today. There was a guy outside just handing these out. Im like, isnt this like a rare document . How can oh, it was just printed actually presumed it wasnt nicolas cage. Right. I have not seen that. You know, the grievances, the grievances that are listed here, these dont hold up as well. I dont like to to scrutiny. I want to talk to you about the grievances. This is my interviewing. Im kind of like in a maze. You never quite know when theyre on the next turn, where are you going to be headed . Well return to the grievances in a moment. Yeah, about the radicalism. Yeah, the radicalism. Yeah. I think we need to remember that radical ism, right . Thats why i opened the podcast by saying the subject is old, but the ideas are fresh. The idea that fundamental equality can be the guiding principle of a new nation. I dont think anyone has this idea better than gordon wood. I have his seminal here the radicalism of the American Revolution. You know, i cite books during my podcast because as a journalist, great. So its like a graduate seminar. You do exactly. I have to cite my sources as any good journalist. And also i want to introduce people to this or books if theyre not familiar with him. Yeah, this is in the introduction of this book. The revolution did more than legally create the United States. It American Society. He says the changes were radical and they were he says to focus we are today apt to do on what the revolution did not accomplish rather to highlight its failures to abolish slavery instance is to miss the great significance of what it did accomplish, he says, made possible the antislavery and rights movements of the 19th century and in fact all our current egalitarian thinking. It radically changed the personal and social relationships of people, including the position of women. It destroyed aristocracy as it had been understood in the western world for at least two millennia. It brought respectability and even dominance to ordinary people, long held in contempt and gave dignity to their menial labor and a manner in history. I think to some that up would be to say the colonists now american citizens view themselves as citizens rather than subjects. It was revolution in that it reordered society, it overturned the existing order and people start to think about themselves and their relationship to others and their government differently. Absolutely. And i could teach a class about thats very good. No, i think i think in that change from subjects to citizens, it does show that transformation and it was revolutionary that a subject under the crown is inherently unequal right. This is a stratified society with all kinds of, you know, different positions based on birth. Whereas a citizen by definition is equal right. And so thats, as you say, its transformed in society. And im friend of gordon wood, and its a its a fabulous book and hes obviously an amazing scholar. I think a one critique would be that theres a lot happening in that period with groups that werent included in the definition of citizen, that were actually radical to i think the revolution maybe was even more radical in many respects than maybe would always writes about in that book. And it certainly not anything he doesnt know. But in terms of africanamericans prosecuting for their freedom and equality for women, you know, to be included, i think it just shows how powerful these were absolutely enslaved africans were not included, we know. But shortly after the revolution, you start to see free black societies in the north where slavery to give way, putting together petitions and petitioning their local governments, their state governments, Even Congress sho