In writing a book about this case . I did not believe there was this Great Lincoln case with a transcript out there no one knew about. He was right. The transcript had only been found in the 1980s. There had been no serious book written about it. We joined together in this effort. It led us on this journey where we would look for great cases with transcripts of the actual trial involving wellknown people. President s of the u. S. Or former president s, cases that had largely been forgotten to u. S. History. That is how it all started. We continued to mine for those great cases with a transcript that had been lost to history. It was in 2018 that lincolns last trial came out. Why was it not until the 1980s the actual transcript of the trial was found . It was found in the garage of the greatgrandson of the defendant in the case. It had a yellow boat around it bow around it in the box. It was clear that it was something of significance that had been capped, but it had not been realized it existed. Transcripts, we are talking 1859, they were not standard procedure in a case. The only reason there was a transcript of this case involving lincoln is because lincoln himself had recommended to the defendant that they thought the defendant should pay for a transcriber to transcribe the case in case he was convicted so they could use it for appeal. Something that is no standard procedure. We will get into that transcriber in just a minute. 1859, state of illinois versus beachy quinn harrison. What are the facts . He was accused of stabbing another man. This is two guys who had a history, beef. The question was was it murder or selfdefense . The defendant in this case was very unpopular in the local community. He had killed another person who was quite popular in town. There were very few people who wanted to take on the case. Most expected they would lose the case because he had stabbed and killed someone who did not have a weapon. Lincoln took the case. He was cocounsel on the trial. We tell in this book the story of the case, the story of how the defense, how they went about creating the defense and then using the transcript as the yoke of the story. This was post lincolndouglas debates, so a lincoln had a Abraham Lincoln had a repetition. He did. He is still not a Huge National figure. We are talking nine months before the Republican Convention of 1860. He was not considered a favorite. He was not someone the world was watching at the time. This case got some notoriety locally. As a result, it was significant for lincoln to win the case because it was significant for him politically. I am not saying that was any sort of driving force for him, but this was someone who had his eye on a political future. He had recently lost an election for the senate. Abraham lincoln was not the prime candidate out there. He was a lawyer doing what lawyers do. As you point out, in the wake of the Lincoln Douglas debates was certainly someone the country was keeping an eye on. Mr. Harrison hires Abraham Lincoln. Why did he choose him . Was he known as a defense attorney . He had handled other murder cases. His cocounsel was the one who had suggested they hire Abraham Lincoln for this case. That is how he was brought into it. We learn a little bit from the transcripts and your description about Abraham Lincolns demeanor in the courtroom. How would you describe it . I think lincoln in the courtroom was somewhat consistent with the image that many have of lincoln the political leader. He was very folksy. That is what made him a good lawyer. There was not a sense of pretense with him. He could bond with the jury. He knew how to talk to people in a clear way. That became evident from the transcript and the way the jury ultimately responded. Dan abrams with this case was this case highly covered . It was certainly covered locally. It got national attention. It was not the trial of the century at the time. It was a very important case for Abraham Lincoln because if Abraham Lincoln had lost the case, i think it would have impacted his political fortunes. I am not suggesting it is a make or break, but he is keenly aware of the Media Attention surrounding this case. You mentioned the trial transcript. Robert hitt is the gentleman behind that. Transcripts were rare in 1859. They were rare for people who could afford it. Hitt was lincolns transcriber for the lincolndouglas debates. Notice i use the term lincolns transcriber. Douglass transcriber presented a slightly different version of the debates. That is such an interesting element to the lincolndouglas debates is to compare hitts transcription versus douglass transcription. Robert hitt is someone who went on to have a distinguished career in politics as a u. S. Member of congress and almost Vice President ial candidate. This was one of the big moments for him, the combination of the lincolndouglas debates and then lincoln asking him to transcribe this trial. Robert hitt appears in one of your later books. This is Theodore Roosevelt for the defense. It came out in 2019. Robert hitt and tr had a relationship. We did not even realize this relationship until we started working on the roosevelt book. We had done Extensive Research on robert hitt. We left it at the end of his career. He had a prominent career in congress. As we were researching the Theodore Roosevelt book, we realized in 1904, when roosevelt was running for reelection, he wanted hitt for his Vice President ial candidate. It was close. It is something that is not widely known. In the end, he was pressured by the party to go a different direction. Robert hitt certainly developed a good reputation. Teddy roosevelt was a huge lincoln fan. I dont know and dont believe that Teddy Roosevelts admiration for robert hitt was somehow connected to his transcribing lincolns case, but i am convinced he did know about robert hitt transcribing the lincolndouglas debates. It was 1915, the case was barnes versus roosevelt. What are the facts . Teddy roosevelt was sued after he was president for a comment he had made about a wellknown republican, fellow republican remember, leader in the party. It was pretty standard bluster of Teddy Roosevelt, attacking barnes as being effectively corrupt because he wanted Party Officials to make decisions rather than the people voting on it themselves. Barnes sued him. Roosevelt was eager to take on the case, and Teddy Roosevelt testified in his own defense for eight days in this case. This was frontpage news everywhere, particularly in new york, but will beyond that because Teddy Roosevelt was the former president of the united states, incredibly popular president , had just run again in 1912, and now the defendant in a big case. There are questions about why barnes brought the case. Was he doing it for his reputation, for some sort of political advantage . In this case, unlike in the lincoln case where the transcript was roughly 100 pages, this one you are talking about 4000 pages. With the development of the legal system in 1915, it becomes standard procedure to have transcripts for the trial. Where did you find the transcripts for this . This one was easier to find. This existed, was out there, had just largely been ignored. This transcript was available in new york state. It was almost 4000 pages. This was a trial even roosevelt historians ignored to a large degree. They minimized it as a sort of low point for roosevelt but not that big of a deal. To Teddy Roosevelt it was a really big deal. In his whos who in america, which used to be a big thing people of a certain age remember, where you would write in and add things to your bio if you were part of it, roosevelt added this is one of the great accomplishments. You think about all the things Teddy Roosevelt accomplished, and he puts it in his whos who. Did this case have any legs when it came to libel in the u. S. . It was a tough case to win. This was before a New York Times versus sullivan. This is before the Legal Standard was that you had to knowingly print something falls or have false or have real suspicions that something was not true. The question came down to was the allegation true that was made about barnes. They got very much into the weeds in new york state politics on who barnes was working with and the sort of deals involved and talk about barnes other work and was he corrupt in that work and should that be considered relevant in the trial. It certainly was not a case that set significant precedent, but it is a case that put libel law on the map. It was a reminder that yes, you can get angry about something, but you better be ready to prove it in court. This ended up backfiring for barnes. It burnished did it burnished Teddy Roosevelts reputation . I think so. When Teddy Roosevelt died in 1919, there was still talk of him running for president again in 1920. We are talking 1950 i should step back and say roosevelt had been talked about a possible candidate in 1916. This was Teddy Roosevelts chance to get on the witness stand and defend his career. It was not just about this case. That is not white Teddy Roosevelt was so eager to get on the stand. He got to talk a lot about why he believes in what he believes in, why the fundamentals of Teddy Roosevelt were meaningful and significant. One quote from your book and one of the juries findings, we find for the defendant Theodore Roosevelt with the suggestion the costs be evenly divided between the two parties. What was the jury trying to convey . I think the jurors thought barnes case, it was not frivolous. It was not that it was some silly lawsuit. They ruled in favor of Teddy Roosevelt. I think they wanted some sort of equity in terms of who should pay for it. Of course, that is not up to them to decide. I can tell you the jurors ended up taking pictures with Teddy Roosevelt after the case, something you would not see today. It is funny because roosevelt ended up sending all the jurors the transcript of the trial that he had signed a version of. I went looking for those as we were writing the book to see if i could find any for sale in an option because i thought it would be a fun thing to have. Dan abrams, your coauthor on all five of your trial books is david fisher. Who is he . David fisher is an incredibly talented writer and historian. These books do not happen without david fisher. He approached me about the lincoln book. Since then it has been a giveandtake about what topics we do and going back and forth. David is an incredibly talented writer who loves history and the law. While i am the lawyer of the two of us, there are times i feel david has an even greater admiration for the law than do i. We will be going back and forth on something, and he will have this lovely language he will send me on something about the law, written as someone who truly admires the legal system. I think one of the things david would tell you that he truly cherishes about our entire series is that it shows you the evolution of the law, even just in the cases we have done from john adams and the boston massacre case to the lincoln case to the roosevelt case to the jack ruby case to alabama v. King, you see an evolution of the law. I think that is something david fisher appreciates. Host next, we are going to talk about your most recent book alabama v. King, and you have a third author on that one. Here is some video of that third author at the white house. [video clip] dr. King came to montgomery, nobody knew him. He became pastor the same week i was admitted to the Alabama Supreme Court to practice law in 1954. I immediately began to work on civil rights cases. He was just working as a new pastor, albeit a relatively very educated church as far as race was concerned because most of them were employed by governmental bodies. In march of 1955, and in december of 1955, the community decided enough is enough. Both of those persons obtained me to be their lawyers, and they ended up deciding we wanted to stay off of the buses. I was concerned about the legal aspect. Others were concerned about mass participation. We brought it together. As a result of that and as a result of the trial against dr. King for the antiboycott movement, we ended up introducing dr. King to the nation, but not only that, the beginning of the civil rights movement. Host who are we listening to . Dan that is freddie gray, in my view one of the most underappreciated civil rights heroes in the country. He got the president ial medal of freedom this year. I think that is in part based on the fact that his profile has been elevated thanks to this book. Fred gray pointing out he was rosa parks lawyer. In the wake of the montgomery bus boycotts, that is what really put Martin Luther king on the map. Luther king was a young pastor Martin Luther king was a young pastor. He became almost inadvertently a local leader when the Africanamerican Community in montgomery, alabama, decided to boycott the buses. The city of montgomery decided to prosecute people for not writing the buses. This is an amazing use of the law considering the law has often been used to exclude africanamericans. They are trying to force africanamericans to take the buses again. Martin luther king gets prosecuted under this arcane antiboycott statute that had almost never been used. 89 people were indicted. They decided, the prosecution and the defense, agreed let have one trial that will serve as the symbol of all of these defendants. Martin luther king was the first and only person ended up getting tried in connection with this. Fred gray represented him. The reason it put Martin Luther king on the map is because the National Media covered the trial. The montgomery bus boycott was more a local issue until the city of montgomery decided we are going to prosecute Martin Luther king as the leader. Suddenly the country starts paying attention. It is the first time Martin Luther king was ever mentioned in any national publication, the New York Times and beyond. It was as a result of this trial and him being the defendant with fred gray as his attorney. When fred gray agreed to join us as a coauthor, actually we asked him to write an introduction. He said to us, i believe this is the case that launched the civil rights movement. I would like to be more than just writing an introduction with you. David and my reaction was that is amazing. Fred gray is going to agree to coauthor this next book with us. Host at the time, you write, one of two black attorneys in montgomery. Dan gov. Walz that is right. Dan that is right. I think he was one of eight in the entire state of alabama. He was just out of law school. He is already defending. He put together the legal team that ended up defending dr. King in this case. Young fred gray, 24, turns 25, is organizing the defense for Martin Luther king in a case that ended up becoming a very Significant National trial that somehow became forgotten to history. Of all the cases that we did that have been forgotten to history, this is the one i cannot believe people do not know much about. I think part of the reason is because everyone expected what the outcome would be. It was expected that Martin Luther king would get convicted. And a lot of the biographies of king, there are a few lines, maybe a couple paragraphs of him getting indicted and then convicted. That does not do justice to what a significant case this was, both for the africanamerican citizens of montgomery, who all got to testify for the first time to talk about the indignities they had to suffer, but for how significant it was for the career of Martin Luther king. This case does not happen, and Martin Luther king is not a national icon. Host this antiboycott statute was basically saying you have to ride our bus, you cannot walk to work, otherwise you are breaking the law. Dan get is sort of insane. Basically telling people you are not allowed to boycott, trying to force them to get back on the buses. The problem was the law specifically says unless you have just reason or a valid excuse. That was the defense. The defense was we have a good reason. The good reason is how badly we are being treated on the buses. Of course we do not want to ride the buses. That is what witness after witness testified to in this trial, how poorly they were treated on a daily basis on the buses. Not surprising, this was in front of a judge, and not surprisingly that defense was not accepted. This case in retrospect was a huge win for the people of montgomery. The world got to see and hear about the indignities that they were enduring on a regular basis. Putting aside the segregation in seating on the buses. You put your dime in, you got to walk out of the bus and then walked to the back of the bus to get back in. A lot of the times, the bus drivers would just drive away or insult people. In this book, that is one of the most powerful things. Yes, we have Martin Luther kings testimony. That is what got david and i so excited initially about this book. We have Martin Luther kings own words being crossexamined in this book. The most powerful part of the book is hearing the ac