Project. Mr. Malcolmday is byrnes. Extremely pleased to have malcolm here today. Only is he a great scholar, hes also a great friend. Official title is Deputy Director and Research Director of the National Security archive. Or n. S. A. Its not that n. S. A. That he works for. The n. S. A. He works for is one washingtons greatest gems. Classify place where america meets its maker and hopefully declassified allowing transparency into government. It seeks to sign a light on what on behind the scenes inside of washington. Of thelso the coauthor coming enemies. About american diplomacy war. G the iran iraq which is best book available on american diplomacy. New book, based ontra, which is extraordinary come out of andarch and documents diaries and interviews with with a mountain of material and documents i dont else has ever seriously looked at. Prosecutor. E a in the end, as your book shows, at them as look look well as they should have. The picture that emerges out of this book actually its right there on the cover, changes i our image of ronald reagan. In a disturbing way. Our quote from the conclusion, a the president and his aids took action first and whether it was proper later. Later. Proper and legal at the heart of iran contra was two secret intelligence operations which is why the intelligence project on this. Focus light one in Central America and one iraq. These two intelligence operations were never properly congress of the United States. Therefore, almost by definition, the were illegal right from start. Particularly of the operation in iran, also the operation in nicaragua. Be traced back in many ways. Contra intelligence operation that led to the iran scandal. Worst, i think the most disturbing part of this book is that the oversight system us m alluded pailed failed us. We got a lot of hearings and press. S in the but there was no real systematic effort to prevent future president s and future white houses from abusing power. Sadly, allt least, of this has haunting timely reminders today. Because United States once again has hostages being held in the middle east by extreme islamist which havens demonstrated the they are prepared to carry out horrific brutality. Two presidencies, Jimmy Carter Reagan were consumed by hostages. Unfortunately barack obama looks one today. I will ask you to turn off your phones now and the format here today will be very simple. Im going to interview malcolm for about 40 minutes or so about the book. Using the prerogative of the chair. Up to you all it to ask questions. Introduction, let me start by asking you about ronald reagan. Where do you place him in the scandal . He iran contra first of all, thank you very me. For having its an honor to be here at brookings. D im so happy to be able to talk about this book that i worked on for a long time. Right, this picture of of where imblematic think how he comes out of this affair. Fitting is right up at the top. Its a very complicated story. Remember as im looking across the room here. Not a lot of 20 somethings in the room. All of you will remember that the hearings and the long drawn out process, it was complicated because it affected events in countries. Nt if you include israel which played a big part. Wonkishved a lot of gray dullues and legal matters as the affair wound on and dragged on for and years. Keeping on top of what all the issues were is a real challenge. Where reagan fits, whereve to sort of decide what exactly youre talking about. Youre talking about what reagan knew or you talking about what he believed oor what people told thing happened that nsc staffradar that were doing. Story. Multilayered put it as briefly as i can, i the drivings being force behind the scandal. Onh elements of the scandal the iran side, he was guided primarily by his concern for the hostages. Acknowledged to have been emotional and very moved by his meetings with the 1985ge family in 1s 1st especially. Him. Drove he was one of the great politicians of the 20th century. He was intent on finding a hostage crisis. On the contra side of things, he of what wasre hisening on the part of staff and aides from other agencies but there seems in my view, theres no doubt, that he guidance and the created the atmosphere in which robert mcfarland, National Security advisor, north, and all the others took their inspiration and took their instructions. You remember the famous phrase back during the congressional hearings where mcfarland said that in 1984, president reagan him aside and said its up to you to keep the contra body and soul. This was in anticipation of very restrictions on government aides of the contras were about to take place. If you look back at the record, i saw it, it was clear to everybody including reagan, about to happen. This was seen as a virtually shut down of officially the contras. Ce to but reagan was not about to let them go. Theas emotional about Freedom Fighter as he was about the hostages. Was intent on finding ways to get around congressional prohibitions. Whether he understood everything that was to happen was legal or get into those details. The basic point is that he was the pyramid and without him, i dont think any happened. Uld have the heart of the iran affair trading arms for hostages. Policy. Had a long we here today, we will not negotiate with terrorists. End up negotiating with terrorists and even worse, them weapons . This is part of the complex a story. Hin wast of all,i want to say i surprised, few days ago, i scanned the times website and i look at the time minutes and videos they put together that really helpful just to encapsulate the issues. Days ago, on hostage it advertised itself as showing some of the very rare where the u. S. Has broken with this policy for not negotiating with hostages. Didere in that minute plus the phrase iran contra come in or ronald reagan. That seems to me to have been egregious example of a violation of that policy. It wasnt mentioned. Of how farection iran contra sunk. How we get involved. There were many different aspect. Simple thing. A there are many causes in most cases. Several things had to come into play. Abouts, we talked reagans emotional attachment to this issue. Early on in this administration, this question had come up about to deal with iran. I can get into that more detail. Now is thatght up didnt come come up with this idea by himself. Were others before him who thought this was an idea were considering. Happened until mcfarland by an israeli namedn Ministry Official david kinfy. He was directors of Foreign Ministry. In theoached mcfarland late spring of 1985 with a message from prime minster shimon perez. The effect that the israelis help americans out in an area where they wanted assistance which was the new Islamic Republic of iran. U. S. Want israeli assistance. Perez says that he god this idea from a couple of different coincidences. In israele appearance ladean who was a consultant to the National Council on terrorism issues and leftist socialist on. Tics in europe and so ladean had, according to his account, had been told by an name,ate of his, he done that the israelis had some ideas approach iran. Mcfarlands approval went to israel and talked to perez and few others to get things. Nse of what do you know about iran and to behind the veil. And so on. Part that hurt. The other part was before that, of the more dark and gloomy this affair, appeared scene through a couple of namedime friends of perez adolph swimmer. Lets back up. He know was the saudi billionaire. Back then. Figure lot of people thought it was the way. Lis, israelis said no other people assumed iranian intelligence. He did have ties with iranian power structure. Fatherme to swimmer, the of the israeli aircraft industry. The arms dealer who had been stationed in iran under the shaw very well. Vp through that connection, they idea, maybe we can iran. Ome money with why . Because iran is in the throws in its war with iraq. Which started in september of 1980. If that war havent been going on, iran wouldnt have needed weapons. Through this coincidence of events, not just the war but appearance of all these figures place, an external spark exists. Thats in the form of meeting mcfarland and telling him there maybe some possibilities here. During the course of different conversations, the sum come bestct comes up, maybe the approach to showing the iranians you hadl would be if some, were willing to offer theyof the weapons that need. We all remember that the on americas based and they still had a lot of hawk missiles. Had tow missiles. They had all kinds of high level equipment that they managed to get out of different u. S. President s. This is the spark that mcfarland needs. Hes been after this for a long time. Not because hes so personally interested in the hostages, i thinke he really did there was a strategic opening at hand. He even wrote about the comparison between the possibility of opening up to kissingerhenry opening to china. Everybody suggested he thinks henry kissinger. We really did think there was a there. Ssibility iran was most important country in the persian gulf for a lot of reasons. Lots of good reasons to try to see what was possible to achieve there. How it got into trading arms comes down tois reagan. Reagan may have been told that is strategic possibility and we should explore it and in fact, he got support in that than georgene other schultz, secretary of state and secretary of defense. Who years afterwards to this denied that they ever thought this was any kind of good idea. Them, it waso approached as a possible opening. But both of those two senior cabinet officers essentially its okay by us to mcfarland. Go ahead and pursue this. Certain caveats. In the summer of 1985, reagan hospital at this point having surgery done. Mcfarland and they discussed this idea over the weeks or so. Ple of the discussion continues. Its unclear what reagan thinks. It comes back to mcfarland. Okay, lets do it. Then its another story how it there. Om one other figure in this. You havent mentioned. The director of central intelligence. Gates. His own agency is saying we these people. They polygraph. That polygraphs are the perfect instrument instruments. Case, hes polygraphed edly. T yet, despite his own professionals advice, he keeps pushing this as well. You explain his role in uniquethis given his relationship with reagan after campaigns reagans manager in the 1980 campaign . Critical figure. He helped get reagan elected. They were old friends. Wanted to be secretary of state some of you will remember. But was not given that job. The cia director after years promised it will be a post and he would have a lot of influence in policy. Say, whenation to reagan was in office, casey hit the ground running. Had draft president ial findings on reagans desk in case and the nicaragua and el salvador cases. Iranian mber what iran policy was in the ration back then. Nistration short answer was there was no iran policy. There were lots of competing ideas. The Reagan Administration, which surprise tobit of some people, who remember how reagan swept into office and the Unifying Force that he seem to of presenting a new ideology and new approach to the u. S. Role in the world. Behind closed doors and the corridors of the white house and testimony ofm the people who experienced this, it pandemonium. Both of these areas in area, werepolicy, there three basic approaches. Essentially to over [indiscernible]. One cia official spoken about this, said they probably got and 40 offers per groupsom various exile saying we can do this. We can get rid of these guys. Just give us the weapons. Casey was taken with particular idea that involved some of the and old style activities like setting up a and broadcasting. Seeing what other kind of activities they can do to create some uncertainty and hopefully dislodge the ayatollah. From the get go, he was pretty wanted to in terms he approach iran. Just very quickly, to cover the bases in terms what the policy ideas were. To containoach was iran. That gets you into a very thorny is the u. S. Role in supports Sadaam Hussein in the iraq war. A third approach was another idea, whichschool sounds antiquated now but and all of the time you remember, that was the approach. T where there were clusters of officials including the white and including casey and al believe ashers who reagan said, soviet union is a evil. Of all its time to go to the source and we need to eradicate their the world. Round there were great fears at the centerat iran was dead in moscows sights. They just invaded afghanistan. Was firmly believed not just by republicans but a lot of in washington and in europe as well elsewhere, that iran. N the list was we now know from soviet records that the invasion of afghanistan was essentially defensive, desperate gamble on the themption that it was that was about to go into afghanistan. This notion of soviet threat was critical and it infused iran contra and it was critical in thinking and hissable to pluck the rake his ability to the right cords with president reagan. We have the extraordinary of the National Security advisor of the United States going to iran. We all remember hes armed with a cake. And one of the big myths of iran contra. No bible. Concederaordinary to even though the notion of taking you. E with i cant recall another Diplomatic Mission with a cake. Anyway, they go. Iranians,ut that the they think theyre going to meet with him. Nt meet it all comes out. Have the investigation. How would you characterize how administration approached the business of the investigation and i think issue,larly important how to deflect the president from being at the center of this whole thing . I hope we can go back and talk about some of those details and so on. As for how they treated takes up aon, that big chunk of this book. Its a crucial part of leading me to the conclusion that i started out with about the role also of hisdent but top advisor and everybody else involved. There are virtually no heros in this story, unfortunately. Story. T a very happy even somebody like george of the few was one who repeatedly spoke out against this in reagans presence. I got a couple of documents that read from. E ill they are pretty dramatic. He fell prey to the Old Washington scandal habit of into a shell and figuring out a way to try to exposure. Is in a way that didnt do him justice. Throw out the thought that this is another thing that i lay at the feet of ronald reagan. In his unwillingness or inability, to consider the Collateral Damage of the one ofns that he made, those bits of damage was the effect that this had on all of advisors and everybody who worked for him. Including schultz and weinberger who said this is a dumb idea and its illegal. Got to stop it and reagan refused. This notion that reagan had no advice and it was in by the nefarious absolute nonsense. The record is in the handwriting weinberger were clear. What happened to them, i pointe, was at some during the investigative natural after the reaction of tightening your defenses and circling the wagons a sensen, there was that they not only had to protect the president , they had protecting themselves. In the course of doing both of people liked schultz and mcfarland and cia folks, all of these over people short endthey got the of the stick to put it mildly. Why . Protectingy were their president and policies and party then themselves. They were basically thrown under bus as a result of it. There was a process that took place remember that this exposed inically was three steps. 1986. In early october the bowlenfter amendment cutting off military aid directly and indirectly. Of the aircrafts that holly has organized with general richard sea cord and other folks ofthe private air force, one the supply aircraft for the junglescrashed in the of nicaragua. It was shot down by a kid with fa7. He was stunned that he actually it. It reached its target. Survivor. Ne they found the survivor from wisconsin. Dragged him in front of international tv. He beared his soul. Said i was hired by the cia. Its an american operation. Wasnt really technically hired by the cia, thats enough ball rolling. That led to an immediate by those people involved. Not just holly north who was middle of negotiations with the iranians, had to cut that short damage control. Abrams and others. All of whom immediately got try to minimize the effect. The record now shows despite the contrary,y to they all knew about the connections and knew about u. S. Connections to that flight and recent flyout operations. The did their best to get contras to take credit for it. To get the general to take some responsibility. He refused to have anything to it. Ith quiet uproar in a behind closed doors when that happened. The next event that happened was november 3rd. We all remember the lebanese ofs magazine, gets a hold this story that undoubtedly of iranian domestic politics. Somebody who thought that other iranian leaders were losing their taste for the war. Found out they were dealing with american and decided to spill beans. Circulated a bunch of pamphlets in tehran. Gets picked up and of differentcouple places. The hostages which reagan denied. Hell say it was to protect hostages lives. I have no doubt that that was a big part of it. Come out until long the the investigations was fact that reagan close advisors were terrified that this was lead to impeachment. Stagenew that the first of these shipments of which gradually only learning, first stage of the were undoubtedly illegal. I hesitate because you can quickly get into the gray area of the law. Which im happy to do if you want. Think you want to. It get we have one lawyer in the ram. Ill probably learn something him. Of the motivating force that led the a whole downn as this dark road to lying about what they did. Covering and doing all these things. Tale. Sad there are several different chapters to. Were going to have time to details. O the endeager to get to the story. Reagan, have ronald what hes aware of arguably impeachable. One of the things i found very thatesting in the book is the opposition, the democrats, there. Ant to go theis it that heres democrats opportunity to bring cant president , i imagine in our current behington that this wouldnt seized on. They decide give him a pass. Its a fascinating part of the story. It shows how far weve come in years. T number of i happen to see that period, the reagan period, as in some ways, not the start. Had the shenanigans there. Milestone on the path the hyper partisanship and dysfunction of washington today. Have if you remember, reagan had many aspects t