Railamerica from july 13, 1987, in a 60 minute portion of a daylong hearing, colonel north is questioned by orrin hatch and paul trible. He defends armed rebel groups opposing the nicaraguan government. Funding that have been presented by congress. Been prohibited by congress. The chair recognizes the gentleman from virginia, senator trible. Sen. Trible thank you. Let me thank you for your testimony over than last week. There are many of us on this panel that support Ronald Reagan and believe in the contra cause. I should note there has been absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of our president. And i, like you, believe the essence of the American Experience is the pursuit of freedom at home and around the world. That is why we must oppose the marxist tyranny in nicaragua. That is why we must help young nicaraguans fight for their freedom, as well. The last week has not been an easy one for any of us. It has been a time of probing questions and honest answers on your part. You have done well. You captured the imagination of the American People. You have done that i think because you tell the truth fully and candidly. Because you are a man who is obviously doing his duty as he saw it. Because you are acting with the knowledge and authority of your superiors. And you also demonstrated an amazing ability to get results in a city so often tied in knots. I know it has been a difficult time for your family. I believe these hearings are necessary. Anyone who values truth, the constitution, the rule of law, must be troubled by what we have heard over the last 10 weeks. But when Public Policy is taken private, and government attempts to operate outside established channels, there are no checks and balances, no accountable oversight. As a consequence, people, good policy, can get into trouble. That is what we have seen. President kennedy used to tell a story i believe captures the spirit of these hearings. In june of 1780, there was a total eclipse of the sun. At noon it was as dark as at midnight. In those days, people attributed this kind of happening to the day of judgment, the coming of the lord. Connecticut legislature was meeting in hartford. The members were thrown into chaos, there were motions to adjourn. Speaker of the house, colonel davenport, silenced those motions with his gavel and spoke these words gentlemen, i do not know if the world is coming to an end or not. If it is not, there is no reason to adjourn. But if it is, i want the lord to come and see me doing my duty. So therefore, i will entertain a motion that candles be brought into this chamber so we may enlighten this hall of democracy. Our duty is to light a candle so the American People can see and judge what has gone on. It is not an easy job or a happy one. But it is one that must be done. An obvious problem when Public Policy goes private is that the distinction between the public good and private ends are often blurred. Private citizens may be motivated by profit to pursue interests that are inconsistent with the goals of the United States. Colonel north, it is clear to me and the American People, that you are motivated by ideals, love of country. Not pursuit of profit. You have spoken eloquently and powerfully about that before us. But im not sure everything can be said of the people involved in your activities. What i would like to do, with your help, is asked questions about the financial aspects of the enterprise, directed by others. Last wednesday you testified how you knew they would be compensated in a just, fair, and reasonable compensation. Is that correct . Col. North i will take your word, senator that that is what i said, when i said it. That is what i felt when we had talked. The evidence establishes that they amassed over 8 million in the think accounts. Did you know those huge sums of money were stopped away . Col. North my recollection is that i did not know the magnitude of the funds that were remaining in whatever accounts, i do not know the names or numbers of any but one, and that was the lake account, which i provided to the state department for use and i provided it to representatives for the money as were providing to support the resistance. I also testified that i had asked on a number of occasions to general secord who demanded eyeing gauge in this activity at the approval of my superiors, but i had asked on a number of occasions that general secord said funds aside for other activities. I testified in executive session as to what some of those would be. I have not gone back to say that if i had added up all of those other activities it would have come out to be 20 million i had asked to set aside. I do not know what the final tally would be. The important thing is, i did not know there was that sum remaining. I do not know the purposes for which that sum was set aside. I do not know the accounts are names, and never considered that a penny of that was mine. I have also testified that were i to be the adjudicator of where that money went, after all the bills were paid and liabilities were covered, i would send that money, every nickel of it, to the Nicaraguan Resistance. That was the original purpose for setting up those nonus government entities. When you testified about this huge sum of money, you said you were shocked. Is that a fair characterization . Col. North i was, and i would point out, i did not know until these hearings began that there is any set sum set aside. I have not communicated with these people for these many months. I do not know the purposes for which they had established these accounts or even that the accounts existed. I absolutely believe that mr. North. Let me ask you another question. These moneys came from several sources, the sales of arms to iran and from solicitations to countries and individuals, is that correct . Col. North that is my understanding, yes. Is it true that neither mr. Hakim nor mr. Secord contributed to this enterprise . Col. North i do not know. Was it to be used for governmental purposes . Col. North i beg to differ with that particular description. We go all the way back to 1984 when this activity was initiated. The purpose was for these outside, nonu. S. Government entities to assist in prosecuting the foreignpolicy goals of the United States. It was never intended anybody get rich or that anybody do anything with the money other than support those Foreign Policy goals. Unfortunately, there seems to be an idea that developed as a consequence of my testimony, that there was a government within a government or a cia within a cia. Or that somehow, these moneys belonged to the u. S. Government. I do not view it that way, i am not a financial expert or Legal Authority on those kinds of activities. I saw those foreign entities, the network of Companies Set up as being there to support the prosecution of foreignpolicy goals. It was never envisioned in my mind this would be hidden from the president. I know there is some debate raised while i was away this weekend. Thankfully, blissfully unaware of the media coverage, but now apprised of it. That somehow we will use these for things the president would not know about. It was always my understanding that it was a shortterm project, not something that would go on ad infinitum. Him that partially is a question raised by representative jenkins last week. It was a fix for shortterm problem. I described to you in executive session some of the activities that were to be supported by these nonus government entities. Thank you. All my question contemplated was, these moneys were to be used to advance foreignpolicy goals of the United States. Col. North yes. Thank you. Now, youve talked about other initiatives that were contemplated. It is my understanding they were contemplated but not undertaken. Is that true . Col. North as i told the committees executive session, we actually started on a number of them. For example, the purchase of the ship was undertaken to pursue a particular activity. Moneys were indeed expended on that and the ship was used for a number of different purposes, as i indicated the other night. There were also moneys set aside for the purchase of a particular weapons system those moneys were not expended. Col. North i cannot speak to that. I understand. Lets talk about prices and accountability. Did you are general secord establish the prices for the arms sold . Col. North i established no prices whatsoever. As i think i testified and certainly as is well known, it was a very competitive marketplace, if you will, to which the Nicaraguan Resistance could turn. The only thing i did was to intervene at the suggestion of director casey. That two particular arms purveyors not be used until the agency was able to determine one, the source of funding for one of them. I believe i talked to that in executive session, and whether or not a certain european who provided arms was involved in reverse Technology Transfer to the east bloc. He asked me to intervene to prevent arms from being sold to those two individuals. I establish no prices or levels or amounts of any kind. I am not suggesting you did. The answer to the question is, general secord did that. Col. North i do not know if general secord did that. But i think it took place between general secord and people you was dealing with. Toward establishing the Southern Front, munitions were provided without cost. It was flown down and airdropped to the Southern Front, for example. Albert hakim has testified it was secord. Col. North i do not know the substance of his testimony. Is it fair to say it was hakim or secord or someone else to have the responsibility to decide what was fair and just compensation . Col. North yes. Did mr. Secord or mr. Hakim sit down with you to give you accounting of their profits . Col. North no. Did they ever sit down with contra leaders over their activities . Col. North i do not know. What you are telling us, if there was no financial oversight by the u. S. Government col. North i have given the records i maintained, those that remain, anyway. You also have from my files a number of the messages which refer in gross terms to funds remaining in various overseas entities. That is about the level i had specific knowledge on. I did not do any accounting, i do not hire an Accounting Firm to do it. I am not trying to be lighthearted about it. It was simply a matter of, things were moving quickly. And that kind of accounting was not done. Sen. Trible obviously, you are a busy man, relying on them for these matters, is that correct . Col. North yes. Sen. Trible under established channels, covert matters taken by cia or cia operatives, isnt there strict financial oversight and accountability . Col. North generally, yes. Sen. Trible i am not intimately familiar with the comptrollers office. It is well enough known they do rigorous accounting for the expenditures of funds. I would point out, however, there is still a debate ongoing within the congress and the gao and state department over the accounting of 27 million in humanitarian assistance funds. It has been widely reported in various media accounts that i was somehow engaged in siphoning money off from those activities. Those reports are untrue. It is a difficult thing to do. Even under the best of circumstances, trying to account for monies like the 27 million, is a difficult task. I am confident that after the review of nicaraguan humanitarian assistance monies, there will still be people to debate whether accurate or sufficient accounting has been done. Sen. Trible is it fair to say that under normal procedures, when covert operations are undertaken by the government, there is always strict accounting of those activities, and that here, there was not . Him col. North given my knowledge, i think that is a fair statement. Sen. Trible lets talk about the relationship between mr. Hakim and mr. Secord. Colonel north, i know you have known general secord for many years and have Great Respect for him. Col. North i am sorry, senator. Sen. Trible no problem. I know you have known general secord for many years and had Great Respect for him. Is it true you do not know mr. Hakim, and still do not know much about the business relationship between secord and hakim . Col. North i first met mr. Hakim i believe in january of 1984. I came to recognize this was a man who wanted to assist the u. S. Government in the restoration of a relationship with his native land. Correction, i first met him in february of 1986. I do not know the nature of the financial relationship with the general secord, the business relationship he had. I do not consider that a prerequisite of using them as an interpreter for one of our meetings, or a series of meetings which occurred in europe. Nor did i see it inconsistent he would be engaged after i found out about it in establishing the european entities and foreign entities. Not all in europe, some in latin america, that supported this mission. Col. North mr. Secord said the money come the residuals, belong to the enterprise and it was going by mr. Hakim. Did you know that . Col. North no. But what i knew was that a series of a network, of overseas networks had been established to oversee the activities. Different overseas companies would carry out discrete activities to avoid the crossover of knowledge between various operations. Thus, one would carry out the purchase of land in a Central American country for the purpose of building an airstrip. They would fund for that airstrip and do the construction. Whereas another company would be engaged in the delivery of munitions. That network, as i understood it, was basically laid out for these activities by general secord. And now obviously, with the assistance of mr. Hakim. But i do not know the details of that relationship. Sen. Trible the point that want to make here is, the money was controlled not by mr. Secord, a man you knew and trusted, but rather by mr. Hakim, a man you admitted you hardly knew. That must come as a surprise. Col. North it does, it is one of the reasons i said i was shocked. The magnitude of the money remaining in the various accounts, i am not entirely sure we are all speaking from the same sheet of music. But that has been serious. When mr. Hakim describes profit, and im talking about what director casey referred to as selfsustaining entities, i am not so sure those are inconsistent. I look forward to the day i consider down and talk about where those remaining moneys go to the people that control them. Sen. Trible i wish you could spend 10 minutes with mr. Hakim. You could be of great help to the committee. Lets talk about the future of these enterprises. Did you and bill casey or general poindexter establish plans for the future in the events that bill casey left of this cia or became disabled or died . Col. North no. Sen. Trible what about your reassignment in the marine corps, where their contingency plans for that . Col. North one thing director casey was looking to he was talking about the use of outside entities, to support limited Foreign Policy goals. I described some of those to the committee the other evening. It was not the kind of thing director casey had in mind for outliving even his tenure as director of central intelligence. But we never got to that point. We were not able to establish in the longer term, where is it all going from here. I regarded this as an imaginative solution to some shortterm problems. A number of the initiatives undertaken that i briefed the committees on the other night assumed these were immediate, shortterm, once you conducted that activity you could put the company back on the shelf or do away with it. That is how i saw it being pursued. It was not a matter, as representative jenkins and i discussed, i do not think as a matter of what happened after bill casey goes and ollie north goes, who is the successor that would carry those activities out. Sen. Trible but it is an important question, isnt not . Marine colonels are reassigned, directors of the cia died. Mr. Secord could have suffered a disability or loss of life. Who was going to control this operation in the future . Was there any plan in place . Col. North we never got to the point where a plan such as that was developed. Sen. Trible what was going to happen when the Reagan Administration came to an end . Col. North we looked to the fact that these operations would shut down. It was not something we wanted to go on in perpetuity. Sen. Trible you werent going to turn it over to the democrats, then . Col. North you said that, senator. Sen. Trible i did, with a smile on my face. That does not deserve an answer. Albert hakim volunteered in his testimony he was trying to pass money to you in your family. Earlier, a lawyer named david lewis called the committee and volunteered that William Zucker had asked him to find a way to get money to your wife, betsy. At first we did not follow that up because it was inconsistent with our image of you. The been hakim, a man that says that he loves you, testified he asked zucker to try to pass money to you and nothing came of those efforts. We know you are not in this for profit, and you have spoken powerfully and convincingly about that. But my question is this doesnt it appear that mr. Hakim and zucker were trying to compromise your set you up to gain influence or leverage . Col. North senator, i did not hear that testimony. I guess my concern is that this committee not have any reservations whatsoever. I was unaware of any activities beyond what i described. Sen. Trible i absolutely understand that. Col. North number two, even if that was known to me, there were other attempts. Does not mean that it works. I do not know the motivation of mr. Hakim or his lawyer, in trying to pursue various initiatives. I do know, that having reviewed certain testimony before this committee, that an indication of calls being made or arrangements being made to meet with my wife after the one meeting that i described to you and the one telephone call in june, are patently untrue. And thus, the characterization of motivations by mr. Lewis or others, or events by mr. Lewis and others, are, to my knowledge and that of my wife, totally untrue. I cannot speak to the medivations of those people who described other events. Sen. Trible i appreciate your reluctance to do so. The record demonstrates you acted most appropriately under this situation. However, i asked those questions because i really ca