You. In your mind, what is it about the Lincoln Memorial that sets it apart from all the other memorials here in washington d. C. . Good morning to you, john. Thank you for having me. What sets it apart, i think, are two things. One is just the beauty of the building and the magnificence of the marble statue by Daniel Chester french, the largest marble monument portrait in the United States. Then and now. What further has set it apart in the last four score years, not coincidentally, is the use of the space that im sitting, on all the way to the steps as a platform for the discussion of grievances, for the aspirations for a more perfect union, for what lincoln called his unfinished work. So, this place, rather than just a tribute to lincoln, has evolved into the setting for demonstrations, for gatherings, for meetings, for concerts, that all point to completing that unfinished work of his. Describe where you are, for viewers who have been to the Lincoln Memorial, what they should know about that space. So, i am sitting, im very bad at this, about 50 feet, 40 feet from the reflecting pool, which is on the far end of the monument. Of course, the memorial is behind me, up 87 steps, i think ive got that right. 58 from the upper platform up to the memorial, finished in about 1919 and then they waited for it to kind of settle in the soft ground on this former swamp before they dared organize the official dedication ceremony 100 years ago. But i do want to make one point about exactly where im sitting. 100 years ago, the Africanamerican Community of washington came out to this spot early to get good seats, to see this tribute to a man they still regarded as the great emancipator. And before the ceremony started, the park police rousted the African Americans out of their seats and moved them all back to right around where we are sitting, to the reflecting pool, a long way away from the memorial itself, in a roped off section, in benches without backs. What started as a tribute to the great emancipator ended as a reflection of segregated washington and a separate but Unequal Society that still existed in washington and the United States. A history of the Lincoln Memorial and what it means today, thats what were going to be talking about in this hour of the washington journal and on American History tvs cspan two. You can call in, you could join this conversation. Phone lines split a bit differently, as we do it, if you live in the Eastern Central time zones its 2027488000 if you live in the mountain or pacific time zones, 2027488001 and then a special line for those who visited the Lincoln Memorial. We want to know why you came and how you felt about what you saw when you came to the Lincoln Memorial. Sorry 202 7488002. You can go ahead and start calling in now, as were joined by Harold Holzer this morning, live from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial. Take us back before that date, before that may 30th, 1922 date. How did this memorial come to be built . Was there any pushback against building the memorial at that time to the great emancipator, to Abraham Lincoln . The project was first conceived in 1866, a year after lincoln was assassinated. When you wouldve thought there wouldve been a coalescence and a, as i wait for a plane to go across here, a unity of purpose. But it just didnt happen, and 40 years went by before congress finally, in about 1905, appropriated the funds, to 5 million, to build a memorial to Abraham Lincoln. And then the debate started about where to put it. This site, in the swamps of west potomac park, was not the first choice. People talked about union station, the base of the capitol, the naval observatory, Meridian Park up near the maryland border, the soldiers home where lincoln spent his summers. And finally, john hayes, lincolns former private secretary, later secretary of state, suggested this spot. Said it should be remote but not too remote. And the sculptor Daniel Chester french, who was the head of the Fine Arts Commission of washington, put the rubber stamp on this area. By the way, the speaker of the house, joe cannon, said famously, i will never let a memorial to my hero be built on that blank blank spot in the swamp. He even threatened to take it to arlington if people insisted on here. So, here it was finally sited and then french picked his collaborator, henry bacon, who did the architecture for many of his sculptures, as the architect. There was no competition. But the design was so beautiful. And then, bacon time it was washington dealings and that is what it was. It worked out so magnificently. Host had the sole right to pick the sculptor, so he picked the fellow who had picked him. Now, if that sounds like insider washington dealings, yeah, thats exactly what it was. And i would say its a good thing that it worked out so magnificently. That statue of Abraham Lincoln, certainly the focal point once you get inside the Lincoln Memorial. But for folks who havent been in there, explain what else you see when you get in and why it was designed that way. Well, youre right, john. It was principally designed as a cradle for this 19 foot high marble statue which, by the way, at one point was going to be a standing statue. But Daniel Chester french objected because he wanted people to be able to see the face of lincoln from down here at the reflecting pool, all the way up, just a constant confrontation with lincoln from different angles. What else is in are the inscribed words of the gettysburg address and lincolns second inaugural address. Incised by a man named ernest bairstow. Also some ornaments by Eleanor Beatrice longman, a sculptor Long Associated with french. Decorative murals by im a painter named ernest gagarin that no one looks at, sad to say, because theyre way above eye level. Finally, an epigraph, words, kind of a caption to the image, supplied by a new york art critic who had always praised Daniel Chester french. So, french, very wisely, said why dont you write the words that will be behind the statue. His name was Royal Cortissoz and it was he who wrote, in this temple, as in the hearts of the people for whom he saved the union, the memory of Abraham Lincoln is enshrined forever. Those are the only words inside the Lincoln Memorial that are not by Abraham Lincoln. If youre subscribed to the wall street journal in todays reviews section of the wall street journal column by our guest, Harold Holzer. The headline, the changing meanings of an american shrine. What are the changing meanings of that shrine . On dedication day, 100 years ago, not just because the African American visitors were herded off to a segregated area but for other reasons, the speeches that were given by William Howard taft, the former president , by warren harding, the president. They made it clear that the subject, that the meaning of the memorial on dedication day, was sectional reunification. The reunion between north and south. 36 states, named on the roof of the memorial, 36 classical columns circumventing the memorial structure to symbolize the 36 states that were readmitted to the union after lincolns presidency and after the civil war. There was one African American speaker, the principle of tuskegee institute, Russell Robert moton, he had a pretty fiery speech ready. Talking about how, if equality wasnt the goal of a country, then this memorial was a hypocrisy. Former president taft told moton, in no uncertain terms, we dont allow propaganda at this sacred event. Either cut or will cut you. So, moton given much more in a dense beach. From there you go to the Easter Sunday concert 17 years later, singing my country tis of thee, of thee we sing, a statement about integration. She had been barred from constitution hall, right near the white house, because she was black. After that, of course, august 19th, 63, the march on washington. Martin luther king says i am standing in the symbolic shadow of this great statue, that 100 years, later the negro is still not free. From that moment, the meaning of the memorial changes completely, it becomes, as i said, a platform for protest, and for aspirations for equality. I would say also that the image morphed into the replacement icon of the country, replacing uncle sam. Its always cartoons of the Lincoln Memorial weaving at the death of kennedy, fist bumping obama, falling over backwards when trump is elected, on and on. Hes the representative of the republic. It is also, as Television Viewers know and washingtonians know, the staging grounds for the night before the inaugural celebration. Where president elect come for their last night before they become president , for either gigantic rallies with fireworks and music or simple wreathlaying or, in the case of President Biden last january, a very quiet tribute to the dead from covid. Remember, there were poppys all along this area in front of the reflecting pool, to represent those who had died from covid. Weve seen, even behind you guys are giving that discussion, the various people who come to the memorial. Not just visitors but graduates in graduation gowns. Im especially interested this morning to hear from our callers as well about what the Lincoln Memorial means to you and your visit is there. We have that special phone line for those who visited the memorial, brian is on that line, calling from new york. Im sorry, bob, in texas, is on that line. Bob, good morning, go ahead. Yes. Thank you for taking my call. One of the very early images i can remember when growing up is watching mr. Smith goes to washington and Jimmy Stewart and just the, where he would look at it and he knew nothing about the tailor machine and all of bad things that were going on in washington. It was just that ideal. And so, when my son got old enough i and he was in middle school i wanted to take him and show him that this represents, if you look at it and you can make your own way, individualism, but we also have to acknowledge all the things that have not been right for all sections of our population. We can speak out about that and try to promote things that are good for all areas. David small, he wrote a book called the president s, or so you want to be president. He was a long time cartoonist for the new yorker, i can remember an image like you are talking about earlier with the poppies and biden. And remember the image of bill clinton walking up the steps after he had been impeached with his head down and they put that in the book. I thought, wow, its like lincoln becomes the ideal that people work off of. It is that one question. My question is, when i went in there and i saw the words under god on the left side when you walk in, are there other places in the memorial that show a spiritual emphasis, as far as how our country began . Thanks for the call. You packed so much into that terrific statement bob, thank you. I shouldve mentioned, and im glad that you did, the same year that Marion Anderson sang on these steps, the movie mr. Smith goes to washington opened throughout the United States. In fact, to prepare for tomorrows anniversary rededication which is, for anybody listening in the region, there will be a ceremony here on the steps recreating the ceremony to some degree. Im going to be speaking, if thats an attraction, dont let it keep you away. But the current principle of tuskegee will be speaking. Yes, mr. Smith opens the same season as Marion Anderson, and that scene that you talk about, he hears a child reading the gettysburg address out loud from the wall. Then, the film cuts to a black man with tears falling down his cheeks as he hears these words of promise of equality under god. Yes, god is mentioned in lincolns other speech, this nation under god should have a new birth of freedom. Its on the gettysburg address portion. By the way, lincoln added those words i gettysburg, they were not in his original text. But when he rewrote it, he inserted the words he had spoken extemporaneously at gettysburg. The other mention of god is a little harsher. Over in the second inaugural address, where that is written in two panels on the wall, before lincoln gets to malice towards none, with charity toward all. There is a fiery paragraph saying that, after all these centuries of oppression, of slavery, if every drop of blood drawn with the lash has to be repaid by those drawn with the sword, then as was said 3000 years ago, so much to be said today. The judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether. So, it was invoking god for equality and rebirth on one side, and then for a kind of retribution against the universal sin of slavery on the other. As someone whos written more than 50 books on a Abraham Lincoln and the civil war, studied it for so long, do you think lincoln wouldve been happy, with the two documents picked to be on the wall, his gettysburg address and the second inaugural address . That is a really great question. I will say Daniel Chester french wanted to add lincolns farewell address to springfield, illinois from 1861. And also, his condolence letter to the widow, lydia bixby from 1864, neither of which made the final cut. I think, and i say this in the wall street journal, lincoln might have been equally interested in seeing the words of the emancipation inscribed on these walls. Not because he wrote them as a rhetorical masterpiece. In fact, the document was written in legal ease. The words were meant to be legally binding. And not necessarily soar as pros, rhetoric. But lincoln regarded the emancipation as he said, the central act of my administration. As he signed his name to it he said, if my name ever lives, it will be because of this act. But again, by 1920, with jim crow still in force, with the ceremony segregated, with an African American speaker censored, the emancipation proclamation was not the thing to celebrate. The white leaders who finally created the Lincoln Memorial emphasized the reunion of northern and southern states, and of course that meant, did not really take proper account of black rights, either those that had been built since the war, or had been denied since reconstruction. At the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, out to california, this is hamdi, calling in. Good morning, you are on with Harold Holzer. Good morning, thank you for taking my call. Go ahead with your comment or question. Well, actually, i have been to the Lincoln Memorial several times. I live over here in california. Its always been a special occasion to note the history. I have been there more than once and ive actually just seen all right, gary in reno, nevada is next. Good morning good morning, thank you for taking my call. I was curious, with so many things going wrong, it seems like nothing is getting fixed, have you guys heard of anybody invoking the 25th amendment . Gary, we are talking about the Lincoln Memorial, the 100th anniversary right now. Do you have a question about that . Im sorry. I was watching a tv show. No, i like the Lincoln Memorial. I think its a good structure. I hope people do not demonize it. But, yes. Well, Harold Holzer, on that point, the caller hoping it does not get demonized. We are in an era in which there has been a rethinking of some history. Has there ever been a rethinking of the Lincoln Memorial . Not yet, happily. During some of the protests in the summer of 2020, proactive fencing was erected along this plaza. Protests were staged here as they were for decades without incident. But there was a photoshopped image of a vandalized, graffitied Lincoln Memorial statue that made it on the web, and it kind of scared people for a few hours before it was discovered that it was not genuine. But you know, a few miles from where we are, down past the capitol, there is a statue of lincoln, erected in 1876. A thomas ball statue, i think the official title is the emancipation group. Lincoln, with his arm outstretched, and a kneeling or rising, half naked enslaved person, the beneficiary of the great, liberating moment of the proclamation. That statute has come under protest. People have unsuccessfully tried to bring it down during some of the protests in the summer. Look, it is worth talking about all of the statues, in washington, in the south, in the west. I personally dont believe lincoln should be subjected to that kind of revisionism. I will quote, as i like to do, the cspan historians poll, which is conducted every time a new president takes office. And that poll has once again ranked Abraham Lincoln as our greatest president. I think he deserves that mantle. As we said, president s come here at the moment when they are reflecting the most. Bill clinton, at the moment of impea