Transcripts For CSPAN3 Members Urged To Take Action On Border Security Tackle Crime 20170427

The subcommittee on National Security will come to order. The chair is authorized to declare a recess tnt. A core attribute of sovereignty is maintaining control over national boundaries, yet over years weve witnessed 2 failure to secure our southern border. This has allowed illicit amounts of narcotics to come into the country. This has had bad effects. It is time to secure the border. A central issue of the president s 2006 campaign was the promise to build an impenetrable physical tall powerful beautiful southern border wall. The administration is taking stems to fulfill that promise and the subcommittee on National Security is closely monitoring this process. The president issued an executive order on january 25th at the department of Homeland Security to the take all appropriate steps to immediately plan, design and construct the physical wall along the southern border. On march 17th, there were two proposals for prototype designs for fulfilling the task set forth in the order. Now border walls have seen success in recent years. President trump has identified Israeli Border security measures as a potential model for securing the u. S. Mexico border. The construction of a security fence on the israelsinai border cut illegal fridays from 16,000 in p 2011 to just 43 in 2013 and 12 in 2014, a 99 decrease. Israels prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu remarked that President Trump is right. I built a wall on israels southern border. It stopped all illegal immigration. Great success, great idea. Do those opposed to building the wall dispute that or is it precisely because they acknowledge the potential effectiveness of curbing illegal immigration. Obviously, this is a legitimate issue. Dhs has just begun the procurement process. Yet the opponents have hem employed exaggerated costs estimates. Senate democrats issued a flawed report claiming that the wall would cost 70 billion. Todays witness wrote in january that a border wall would cost as much as 14 billion which is obviously much p different than the Senate Democrat estimate. I think what they did was take the highest number they could find and multiply it by the total miles of the border, which i dont think anyone is suggesting is the way to do it. Its sloppy back of the napkin math. The American People deserve more than misinformation. The wall should be built in a fiscally responsible way. There are a number of ways to build it at little or no cost to the american taxpayer. At the same time, what is rarely discussed but which needs serious inquiry is whether securing the border will have a positive effect on american taxpayers at the local, state, and federal levels and today well hear testimony from immigration expert dr. Steven cammarata on the significant burdens that illegal immigration and having an unskier border can impose on taxpayers. He estimates that if a border wall prevented between 160,000 to 200,000 illegal crossings, about 10 of the expected crossings in the next decade, the United States would realize between 12 and 15 billion in savings. That would offset if cost of building the wall even if you didnt use the seized drug assets. Its more about dollars and cents and our governments duty to defend our borders, defend sovereignty and protect our citizens. Illegal immigration has had significant human cost. Too Many Americans have been victims of crime committed by illegal aliens who should not have been here first. One of them is a woman who lost her son 15 years ago today. He was murdered with a previously deported illegal immigrant from long ago. She did it the right way and her son was taken from her by someone who had no right to be in our country. What makes this tragedy so painful is that ronalds murder was preventable. Had the government simply done its job and maintained a secure border, the murderer never would have been able to enter our country and ronald would still be with us. Building a wall on the u. S. Mexican border is a necessary first step and consistent with experiences in san diego and yuma, has the potential to dramaticcally reduce it. The United States will also need to deploy additional human, technological and legal resources, in addition, predictable enforcement will restore the rule of law and deter wouldbe Illegal Immigrants from circumstance venting the laws in the first place. We hope mr. Brandon judd will speak more about what the agents on the ground see every day. This subcommittee will continue robust oversight over these actions to determine how they are meeting the threat by a porous border and we want to make sure that taxpayer money is being used well, that the barrier is being built in an effective way. Well continue to monitor this over the next year and a half. I thank the witnesses for being here today and for their tnl. With that, i yield to sitting in for my friend from massachusetts, the Ranking Member, mr. Lynch, is mr. Deson yay. I want to thank you and our witnesses on what is a very emotional and legitimately for some of the Witnesses Today yin yinch. I cant imagine being the father of two sons who lost a p parent to violence. I cant imagine what it is like to be here to sit on this anniversary, so your loss and your passion to see something is done about that, i am very respectful in so much as we may have differences, i think i understand as best i can whats brought you here today. Ms. Espinoza, from what ive read from your work, more globally as you see many, many cases, i very much respect your work and the ultimate desire you have. Mr. Judd to you and your colleagues, Great Respect for the work that you do. The jocks you do are difficult. The other two witnesses, thank you for being here. Let me. The wall that the president is proposing simply wont work, in my view and in others and will divert resources away from areas needed to protect the safety and security of americans. Will herd addressed his concerns with the president s plan. He wrote an op ed in which he called the wall the most expensive and least effective way to secure the border. True Border Security understands a strategic that includes a mix of personnel, and changing tactics, all of which come at a lower price than a border wall. Im in agreement with my colleague. The wall is incredibly expensive with little, if any, return on the investment, despite the president says it would cost 10 to 12 billion, most estimates are higher. Some estimate 22 billion in up front construction loss alone. Other independent and Congressional Studies have estimates up to 40 or even 70 billion. This is all in contrast to the programs same administration have proposed getting that provide americans and provide returns to the american public. Its troubling that the president budget proposes billions towards building a wall while slashing domestic programs, including the National Institutes of healths budget cut. Additionally, the president s proposed wall will undermine our National Security by redirecting funds from programs that actually work to secure our border. This money would instead be pulled from Airport Security programs that help secure major points of entry where drugs are much more hikely to be trafficked into our borders. Despite the president s rhetoric during the Obama Administration, the number of unauthorized immigrants into the United States dropped from 12. 2 million to 1. 1 million in 2014. During that same time, more people became unauthorized to be in the United States simply by overstaying visas than by coming across the u. S. Border with mexico. At least 40 have overstayed their visas rather than coming across the border. The president s proposal to build a wall fails to be workable or cost effective. His request for billions of dollars is a shortsighted request for congress and breaks one of his most fundamental Campaign Promises that the American People would not pay a dime for the wall. Mr. Chairman, we have a short video to play. Without objection. Were going to build the wall. We have no choice. Who is going to pay for the wall . Mexico. Who . Mexico. The wall is going to be paid for by mexico. And mexico will pay for the wall. Mexicos going to pay for it. And i will have mexico pay for that wall. Whos going to pay for the wall . Mexico. Who . Mexico do you believe that mexico will pay for it . No. Hes obviously talking about having mexico pay for it. Do you think thats actually a viable option . No. Thank you, mr. Chairman when announcing his president [ buzzer ] the president stated i would build a great ball and nobody builds wall better than me, believe me. And ill build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border and ill have mexico pay for that wall, mark my words. At that 2016 Campaign Rally the president reiterated we will blild the wall and mexico will pay for it 100 . These are only a few of the countless times that the president has underdelivered for the country. He has abandoned this promise and changed his tune. Earlier this week President Trump tweeted that mexico will pay for the wall eventually and in some form. With this track record, nobody should believe that. Instead hes demanding that American Families have the burden of finding additional billions of dollars to build the wall. Until earlier this week he was signalling that he would be willing to shut down the government to get leverage. We have real problems to address in securing our borders. We all agree. But the president s proposed wall should not only not be built but it should not be built on the backs of hard working american fam hills. I yield back. Le. Ill hold the record open for five legislative days for written statements. We will roids our panel of witnesses. Im pleased to welcome mr. P stephen cammarata director of Research Study for immigration studies. Brandon judd, miss maria espinoza, the remembrance project. Ms. Agnes giveny, and mr. Seth stader, stormer assistant of trade policy, department of Homeland Security. Glad you were able to get here. All witnesses will be squorn in before they testify rgets so if you could all please rise and raise your right hand. Your entire written statement will be made part of the record. Mr. Cammarata, youre recognized for five minutes. Thank you. I would like to thank the chair and the committee for inviting me. My testimony today is based on a recent report published by the center. This analysis reports the fiscal costs of illegal Border Crossers based on some fiscal estimates developed by the National Academy of sciences and medicine last year for immigrants by education level. These calculations are based on some pretty well established fact about Illegal Immigrants. First, there is agreement that Illegal Immigrants overwhelmingly have modest levels of education. The vast majority either didnt pass high school. Graenlts who come to america with modest levels of education regardless of legal status create more in costs for america. Combining this with the net fiscal estimate from that National Academy studies shows that on balance if you take the taxes theyre likely to pay in their lifetime given their education levels, theres a net drain on taxpayers of about 75,000 per illegal border crosser or about 7. 5 billion per hundred. This is only for the original illegal immigrant. We can do it with their children. We applied those estimate the cost would rise to about 4949 million or about 9. 4 billion per 100,000. The fiscal costs of Illegal Immigrants is not due to the fact that they dont want to work. Its not even due to the fact that many work off their books. It reflects their educational attainment. People with this skill profile, native born, immigrant legal or illegal immigrant pay less in taxes than they use in services. Thats pretty much absolute agreement on that. What these cost estimates do is give us an idea not only of what illegal Border Crossers cross but they eliminate the likely savings that different enforcement strategies create for taxpayers versus what these enforcement strategies might cost. A new study indicates that perhaps 1. 7 million new Illegal Immigrants will successfully cross our border in the next ten years. If thats the case and no one knows what the future holds of course, but if that were to happy and given these costs it means that if we were to stop just 9 to 12 of those expected crossers over the next decade it would generate 12 to 15 billion in savings which might be enough to pay for a wall. In effect, the wall could pay for itself evenly if it kept out only a small fraction of the people expected to come. Recently, the Cato Institute evaluated my analysis and they argued that the Illegal Immigrants werent as unskilled as i thought they were based on my analysis of the data. Even so, they still found that the average illegal border crosser would pay fiscal deficit of 4. 3 billion per hundred thousand illegal crosser. Now, cato in their analysis tries to argue that state and local costs, which are in the studies, shouldnt count because its the federal government thats building the wall. This doesnt make sense to me but ultimately thats up to congress whether to downtown state and local costs. It seems reasonable to me to do so. Finally i want to make one more point about the costs that come from the national academies. They employ net present value which calculates the fiscal impact, but this concept, which is commonly used by economists has the effect of reducing the size of the drain that unskilled graenlts will create because it discounts the costs in the future. If you didnt do that discounting, the costs are much higher, about roughly double, about 150,000. If you want to do a different calculation where you dont discount the future, thats what you would get. The bottom line from this analysis is that unskilled immigration, which characterizes most illegal immigration, is very costly to taxpayers, given their education and given the realities of the modern American Economy that pays the less educated relatively low wages coupled with the assistance of an administrative state. Its not a moral defect on their part. Its simply the reality of education. Thank you for allowing me to testify and i look forward to your questions. Thank you. Now recognize mr. Judd for five minutes. Chairman desantos, congressman day saulnier, i appreciate the opportunity to be here today. I want to emphasize first off, i will not advocate for 2,000 miles border. Thats not necessary. What i will advocate for is a border wall in strategic locations that helps us secure the border. I warm front to point out what happened and give you a historical analysis of why the borders unsecured today. In the mid 80s, the United States faced its first major illegal immigration crisis. Other than b barbed wire fences owned by ranchers, wlrp no barriers to impede crossers. Kauj chose to deal with it by passing an act. The act promised to secure the border and ensure the United States was never put in the same situation again. The act failed. It failed in large part because the United States government put the cart before the horse. Without securing the border first, the government legalized several million persons who willful little violated fr u. S. Law. By doing so we clearly broadcast to the world that our laws could be avoided if enough people enters the states illegally. After 1986 illegal border crossings took place in el paso and san diego. The Border Patrol thought if it could control these two corridors theyd be able to control illegal immigration and narcotic zmugling. They threw vast resources to these areas but left other areas wide open. The prevailing thought was that the infrastructure did not exist on either side of the border to allow smuggling organizations to move their operations to the inhospitalble and barren deserts. The prevailing thought was wrong. The tucson Border Sector was overrun because we did not have the fore sight to realize that smuggling is big business and that the car tels are extremely flexible and ape daptble. In essence, we created the problem in tucson and the citizens and ranchers paid for our mistakes. Unlike today, in the mid 80s and early 90s, isil didnt exist, criminal carr tels didnt control and transnational gangs werent pref leptd in the United States. Today, however, this is our reality. And if we refuse to learn from failed Border Security policy and operations of the past we will never secure the border. We must take a proactive approach and it must start with the proper mix of technology, infrastructure and manpower and it must be comprehensive. We must acknowledge that shutting down the rio grande sector without addressing other places will create the same type of vacuum that we created in arizona. Part of the infrastructure, the wall, is being heavily debated. As an agent who worked in two of the busiest sections of the border, i can tell you how effective the borders are. We had next to nagbe way of infrastructure when i got there. For every crosser that i apprehended, three got away. The building of building barriers allowed agents to dictate where crossings would be. As an agent who has extensive experience working with and without border barriers and as the personal elected to represent Border Patrol agents i can permanently attest how effective a wall in strategic locations will be. I implore both sides to work with the men and the women of the United States Border Patrol by providing the proper technology, infrastructure, and manpower. By so doing Border Patrol agents will secure the border. I appreciate your time and look forward to answering all of your questions. Thank you. Thank the gentleman. Ms. Espinosa, youre up for five minutes. Mr. Chairman and mechanics of the committee i am honored to be here before you today to testify on issues associated with National Security. My testimony is based upon my nearly eight years of traveling across the country with the remember ransz project, an organization that add indicates for our families, our countrys previously most forgotten whose family members were killed by illegal aliens. Americans will continue to be under assault until the wall is built and the Border Security. I have attended murder trials, testified in other states and participated in round tables, discussions with sheriffs. I have presentations and spoken with groups all over the United States about the most devastating of all impacts of illegal immigration, the loss of a life. I have had hundreds of firsthand speerns with stolen lives families. Families have given heart wrenching congressional testimony like the one youre about to hear about the tragic and violent killings of loved ones perpetrated by someone who should not have been in the country in the first place. The irony, the politicians listened and gave sympathy. Both democrats and republicans have failed to enact the very measures that would have saved american lives we want the ball built right away. We proudly support our president , an American First National agenda. The wall is the Foundation Upon which a comprehensive border policy can and must be built. It is of if utt most urgency. First for a future perspective on the horrors of a National Open borders policy, lets look at texas over the past six years. According to department to have Homeland Security status indicators, over 217,000 criminal aliens have been booked into local texas jails between 2011 and 2017. Committing nearly 600,000 crimes ranging from assault of which there were nearly 70,000, to over 6,000 violent sexualle assaults of women and children and homicides, which numbered nearly 1,200, all preventable. These are only a sampling of the heinous crimes they have committed. Department of Homeland Security reports that a full two out of thee of these crimes were committed by aliens here illegally. Those who thought the great border wall would not work either dont know their history or are in denial. I can assure you that a wall will work. Today where walls will exist, illegal crossings have been drastically reduced by over 94 . In the arizona yuma sector, arrests dwindled from over 138,000 to just over 8,300. The known attempt to enter and those who escaped dwindled to an call minimal number compared to the hundreds of thousands who entered and evaded arrests in previous years. Yes, walls do work. If not built when another open borders president is elected, the technological deterrents and all important army of Border Agents will be reduced or entirely removed, allowing this holocaust of american killings to resume. This must not be perpetrated upon our families. Based upon preliminary information we believe that american stolen lives may number in the tens of thousands but because the government at every level has failed to identify correctly, the illegal alien killers, no one knows for sure. We welcome congresss commitment to assure an accurate counting and believe that all americans, if they knew the true human cost of this invasion would demand the wall be built immediately. Just last no there was a string of reports of heinous crimes committed by illegal alien gang members. The remembrance project advocacy stands behind President Trump in demanding that Congress Fund the kwon instruction to have wall. Preserve our sovrge nation and keep our country safe by securing our borders. I ask you to do all you can to stop these preventable killings and murders that permanently separate families from their loved ones. Please, not one more stolen lives. Thank you, god bless you and god bless america. Thank you. Ms. Gibbony, youre up for five minutes. Thank you for inviting me here today. My family left as refugees in 1957 from hungary. My parents, my brother myself legally greated to the United States. We followed all the rules, the laws. We followed all the Background Investigation, thorough Background Investigation and thorough medical exams by american cons lalt appointed and approved doctors. We had to have character witnesses attesting that we had good moral standings and my father was rieshd to have a job contract. Today, april 27 marks my sons 15th anniversary of his murder. Ronald was my first born. My only son. His father, my first husband was a brazilian national. Ronald was a good person, kind, considerate, kind and loving and sometimes a practical joker. He helped my piernts and ronald was a good big fwroer to his two sisters. He was always there when anyone needed help. He went to visit his children and while standing on the driveway he took a bullet intended for someone. The shooter was an illegal immigrant. He fled to mexico after the shooting. His wife was depositing her welfare check at the credit union so he could live on it in tijuana. He eventually returned to the United States and was sent top prison. Hes due to be released in two years and seven months. I am afraid that california wont notify i. C. E. Of his release. Our borders would have been if our borders would have been security ronald would still be here along with thousands of People Killed by illegal aliens. Many deported aliens return to continue to victimize american citizens. One life lost is too many. We need a wall and more Border Patrol officers. My only sibling, my brother, las low had a stroke at age 351 due to the overwhelming stress and depair. He died the following day, only four months after ronald was murdered. My father gave up living. He wanted to die. To be with ronald his first grandchild. It took him 11 years of survegs. My mother tried to be so hard and strong for the family. She was our rock, but i could see the incredible pain in her eyes. She too is inspect heaven now. They are together, my son, my brother, father, and mother. I have never seen my husband where my son was murdered so help less. Watching the devastation, the panic, the pain, there was nothing he could do or undo or fix what happened. He was the twoun call me at the campground where i was camping with my two daughters with girl scouts to tell me that will ronald was shot in the shoulder and he was expected to survive. We immediately drove home. He hugged me as i walked in the house and said i am sorry. I told him i was going to the hospital to be with ronald. It was then that he said m im sorry, ronald didnt make it. Now i live a life sentence of pain and suffering wondering what would ronald look like, would he have gray hair at age 44, would he be married, what would he be doing . I miss his beautiful smile, his warm bear hugs, his sense of humor, our talks. I miss his voice, his scent. I miss family gettogethers with all of us present. My family is permanently broken and separated. I cant travel anywhere in the world to see him ever again. I will miss all the tomorrows and all that was taken to me. All because of broken open borders. I miss watching him i miss watching him iron his clothes and fix his hair. What i miss the most is him calling me mammy. I miss my son. All i have left are his clothes, old photos, baby shoes, bottles, toys and memories. I live with this emptiness, a hole in my heart longing for my son and i live with the daily fear of losing another child or family member. We cannot afford to lose one more life. Ronald is just one life. His death is not an isolated case. Deputy david march murdered a couple of days after ronald in a neighboring town. His murderer also fled to mexico and he also had been previously deported. His widow and i became friend. We will compare our pain and greefr and often cry together. Officer don johnton, a coworker of my husband, was shot by someone who overstayed his visas. Hundreds of victims, innocent lives. I wonder how many more are there that we dont know about because our government doesnt keep statistics on illegal aliens crimes. What an overall problem it is for our nation that so many u. S. Citizens are killed on a daily basis by people who shouldnt be in the United States to begin with. President Ronald Reagan signed an amnesty bill which was supposed to be followed by the securing our borders. These things have never been done and did conditions have gotten worse every year. The irony is my family and i legally my greated to the United States and an illegal murdered my son who should never have been in the country to begin with. I urge you for a secure border eliminating ways for illegal aliens to come here. It is too late for my son ronald and the thousands killed by illegal aliens, but there are so many lives that can be saved if you would just take action and put americans first. Our President Donald Trump deserves more respect. He is working so hard to protect our country, protect our constitution. Illegal aliens have no constitutional rights. Country without border is no country. You may say it is inhumane to deport illegal aliens. How humane is it that my son and other victims lives were cut short. President trump is working. Do not stand in his way. Work with him. Thank you for your time. Thank you. Mr. Stader, youre up for five minutes. Thank you for inviting me to present my views of the administrations proposed wall. Ive been around this issue for a while having served in Law Enforcement and in the Obama Administration and president obamas administration. In my view, the wall is deeply misguided and congress should not support it. It would be a waste of dollars with nothing in return. The wall wont help us address any of the most pressing challenges we face at the border. In fact, it will actually make us less safe. The wall attacks the wrong problem. The fear that america is somehow being overwhelmed by massive of mexican economic migrants is old and outdated. Of course illegal mexican migration occurs. The problem is the apprehensions are at historic lows. In the 1990s the border was out of control with illegal entrants at two million a year. Weve brought far greater control of our border since then. Weve tripled the size of Border Patrol. We have constructed hundreds of miles of nens in strategic locations, h most in urban locations like in san diego. This has been extraordinarily successful, making it far harder and more expensive for people to cross illegally. Mexico is changing dramatically. Over the last two decades since nafta, mexico has grown into our 11th largest world economy. Whats the result of all this . According to the Pugh Research center more mexicans head north and Border Apprehensions are the lowest in decades. With apprehensions 75 less than 2000 when 1. 6 Million People were an lended by the Border Patrol. Some do try to cross and some get in. Border enforcement will never be perfect. But the reality is that the investments this congress and administrations of both parties have made in securing the border have paid off. Our border with mexicos far more secure than ever before. This is not to suggest that we dont have pressing challenges at the border. We do. Unfortunately a wall is not going to help us address any of them. The wall will not make us more secure against terrorism. One of the most Important Reasons for this is our Close Partnership with mexico. We Work Together to share and analyze travellers to the western hemisphere. Far away from the southwest border. If the fight poisons the Security Partnership with mexico, we will be less sooif. Lit not stem drugs. Drugs are smuggled into our country in the thousands of cars and trucks that enter our official points of entry such as sannee sid row. A wall wont stop drugs from being smuggled through items or by aircraft. Third, a wall will not help fight the drug carr teles. If mexico reduces its cooperation with i. C. E. And d. E. A. , it will be more difficult for us to successfully build cases. Finally the wall will not help us address the most pressing migration challenge we face. With thousands of gad. Most migrants are turning in to Border Patrol agents. Under lap we cant build a wall and bounce them off. We must allow asigh limb claims to be heard. Walls not going to help us with chems we face at the border. In the 1970s senator problems meyer handed out what he called the Golden Fleece program. I cant think of any project that would make him happier. Republican representative thats sad enough. Even sadder is that the effort to build the wall will divert resors away measures that would help. Our immigration system is indeed in crisis, straining from the flow of Central American asylum seekers. Suffice it to say, a walls not going to help nor will it make us safer from criticism or organized crime. Its a bad idea and i Hope Congress does not support it. Thank the gentlemen. One of the frustrating things with this issue is its been failure theater in this country for over 30 years. Mr. Judd, you mentioned it. Ms. Gibbony, the 1986 amnesty. No more illegal immigration and illegal immigration quadrupled between then and now in terms of the numbers that are here. 1996 we were supposed to have an entryexit visa system implemented and thats different than this wall issue but theres millions of people who come legally and overstay their visa. To this day we do not have an entryexit visa. Congress overwhelmingly passed the secure fence act which was supposed to provide 700 miles of double layered fencing. In areas where thats been done its been effective and yet congress gutted that the next year and weve had 36 miles in total. Weve been toying with this for decades. Lets get it right and do it properly. The examples of israel and san diego suggest that if you do effective phelpsing or a wall that that could actually reduce illegal immigration much more than your estimate. Do you agree, you took a very conservative estimate about how a wall, how much illegal immigration a wall would prevent . Yes, i think it is pretty conservative. The experience with walls that they do work where they are but where theyre not people tend to go around them. There are, as you say vooes visa overstays. T. The strain on the taxpayer, people come illegally, their medical costs get born by the taxpayer usually . Right. That can happen. People go to free clinics or emergency rooms. Education . We spend about 17,000 on each child in the United States. You have maybe over a million Illegal Immigrants in u. S. Schools. Peopthats taxing Law Enforcement, correct can those would be people if the border were secured Law Enforcement would not have to worry about a all. Thats correct. I think as weve heard today thats really not the point, is it . If someones not supposed on the in the country and they kill someone, that is clearly preventable. And i think thats what frustrates the American People so much. Your study doesnt even take into account, i dont think, the noneconomic costs associated with having a porous border and allowing illegal immigration. Drugs, Human Trafficking, obviously, the crime as weve seen, that is not reflected at all in your study, correct . No. I didnt include the kolgs of any of the children. The victims weve seen, theres immense costs that go with that. You think that your study, its probably conservative in terms of the number of illegal entries, that it could prevent bullpen its also conservative in terms of h some of the benefits because youd be talking about drugs, youd be talking about crime, youd be talking ability reducing other bad things associated with having a porous border. Is that fair . A lot of these things you cant put a dollar amount on. In terms of paying for it, are there ways, whether its the what senator cruz suggested by taking the seized drug asset money, billions and billions of dollars, others have said take some of the illegally retained tax cut credits. Do you agree there are ways that money can be identified and used that dont necessarily involve having the american taxpayer pay for it correctly . You mentioned the tax remittances that flow out of the United States, 10s of billions of dollars. Put a tax on them and you could generate income as well. Mr. Judd, you agree that when you have areas where these barriers have been effective, like san diego, obviously, the bread and butter is still going to be you guys out there. Its a force multiplier, because one of your agents can cover a larger territory if you have that barrier, is that right . With a barrier its estimated that all we need is one agent for three, four linear miles. Without a bearer, i need one agent per linear mile. The cost effectiveness of a barrier in manpower is extremely successful. So we need to we absolutely need to look at where we have to put the value. The secure fence act had 700 miles out of the 2,000. Do you think that makes sense . Is that probably much . I dont think anyones saying you need 2,000 miles. I do. The chief said recently the same thing ive been saying for two years. That we need it in strategic locations. The 700 miles is about what it is. You are a critic of the catch and release policies of the Obama Administration. Its sared to say . Yes. So doing a lot of things we go to support you is important, but you can do all those things and if theres an administration in power that doesnt have the will or that ties your hands behind your back, you could have the best of intentionings, its going to be difficult to get this problem right, is that it . It is. To cross the border at a place other than a point of entry, thats a crime. When we see these individuals, what were effectively doing through the catch and release program, were driving the criminal smuggling organizations and were incentivizing them to allow these individuals to cross the border at places other than points of entry. Every one of these individuals could legally present themselves at a point rof entry but the Smugglers Force them to cross at a place other than a point of entry and it takes people out of the field which opens holes that allow smugglers to bring across higher cost value traffic such as heroin and potentially even people from middle eastern countries. So its a huge problem. So you think in terms of the issues with not having a secure border, you think the drugs you do think drugs are coming across illegal and thats a major issue . I know they are. In fact, if we think that more drugs are coming across at ports of entry, were absolutely wrongs. All you have to do is pull agents out of the field and thats what smugglers are doing by crossing these family units and asking for asylum, were creating holes and allowing smugglers to bring cross their higher value product, such as heroin. Ms. Gibbony thank you for your testimony. This is very personal to you to get this border under control, correct . Absolutely. And i think youve said before that youd be happy to take your own shovel and work to build it even in the 120degree heat. I was just goinged to say that. Yes, id be happy to go and work on the wall myself. I know its not feasible, but trust me. I would be there. And that is because you dont want to see anyone else to be in your shoes some day . Never. I its such a pain. Its so difficult. Especially days like today that i dont even wish it upon the guy that murdered my son. I dont wish this pain on his family. Thats how painful. You would think that i would wish him a lot of harm. I dont. But nobody should have to suffer through Something Like this. Because if my son would have been sick, i would have resigned myself that it was his time to go. That it was gods wishes, but my sons life was cowardly taken. I think you also mentioned in your testimony and its an issue were going to have to come on in a different hearing, i think but your sons murderer is in prison, will eventually get out. Youre worried that california may not notify i. C. E. And weve had jemeil shaw here, also from california. You probably know him. Yes. You had illegal aliens involved in criminal activity released by the state aliens, involved in criminal activity in the state, and murdered jameels son. Casey chadwick, we had her mother here last year. You had a guy from haiti illegally in the country, served an instance for manslaughter, 12, 13 years, connecticut, i. C. E. Did not send him back, released, and then i killed che casey. Thats going to be an issue well have to get right. If you know somebody has served an instance, theyre not here legally, releasing them into society to me puts people at grave risk. We want to work with you to make sure these states are working with i. C. E. To make sure were not letting dangerous people out. Ive gone over my time. I will give indulgence to my friend from california. Ill recognize him now. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Judds comments earlier, it would be wonderful if we could get, knowing the passion involved, i dont want to put words in your mouth, but your original testimony to depoliticize as much as possible, having spent a good deal of time when i was in the state legislature in california researching public works projects that are socalled mega projects, thats any project over a billion dollars, they are just fraught with concerns from an implementation standpoint. Your point about where it is. So it would be my wish that perhaps it is an opportunity for us in a dispassionate, nonpartisan way, look at just, from the engineering experts, the return on investment. It has to be considered where the money will come from, whether from other parts of Homeland Security, or whether it will come from nih, which has equally compelling parent stories about people losing their lives because we havent invested there. Thats an overall context. Mr. Chairman, i would like unanimous consent to enter into the record the cato report that mr. Camarota referenced, not the most liberal organization in the world. The title is the border wall cannot pay for itself. I would like to enter that into the record. Without objection. Ms. Gibboney, your comments about california, being from california, with the Governors Office and the attorney general and other Public Safety people, we have differences of opinion, respectfully, but to the degree that its appropriate, i would like to also work with the chairman to make sure that we communicate appropriately with you about the release of your sons the perpetrator of that crime. So im happy to work on that with the difference that we have, some differences of opinion, but as appropriate, i would be happy to. Mr. Stodder, you have a lot of experience in this field. As i said earlier, on big public work projects, you usually get an extensive need assessment, risk assessments. You let the engineers do their job, tell them what the objective is, you let the experts like mr. Judd and Homeland Security have their input. With your extensive experience, are we at that point yet to go ahead and make a judgment, realizing that there are duelling ideological think tanks that offer their perspective, sometimes surprising, like the Cato Institute view of it. A federal program like this will haveover retu runs. We know the wall, the estimates, we actually have no idea what a wall would actually cost. The thing i do now is that i mean, im with mr. Judd in the sense of, i think the way to secure the border is to have the right blend of Different Things that we do, whether it be Border Patrol personnel, Technology Sensors and drones, fencing, also investigations as well. Investigations of Human Smuggling Networks and financial facilitators of those networks. You have to have a blend of all of them. And i think the fallacy i think of the wall is to think that, well, this is just one size, its going to fit all, well just put a giant great wall across the southern border, except for the ports of entry, lets not forget the ports of entry and the stuff that comes in through the points of entry. Mr. Stodder, though, my comment is just to the dispassionate analysis from Law Enforcement experts, Homeland Security experts and engineers. Has there been any of the Due Diligence done that you would expect for similar public works programs . Not that im aware of. Its something that needs to be done. We need to get the pros from the border proceduratrol and from io get to think through, whats the right blend in any particular area. Im as strongly enforcementoriented as the next person, having served in both bush and obama. I do think fencing is required in strategic locations. It did a world of good in san diego. I think the idea of putting a wall across the entire border without further, deeper analysis is misguided. I have two quick quotes from you that i want you to respond to, both about the sentiment expressed here in these quotes in regardles to illegal immigration. A threat against aviation, quote, literally keeps me awake at night yet President Trump has proposed cutting the Transportation Security Administration budget including a program that supports local police at airports. The other quote i would like you to respond to is, in february vice admiral charles ray of the coast guards Deputy Commander of operations stated, quote, as a result of lack of resources last year, we were prevented from getting over 580 known smuggling events and those shipments made their way north. Could you respond to those two quotes . Sure. Let me take them in reverse order. First, with charlie ray, who i know well, good guy, i think the idea of cutting the coast guard in order to build a wall is kind of insane, because if you think about it from the perspective, in Homeland Security we think about the three borders of the United States. Northern border, southern border, and the caribbean border. The more we reduce the resource availability of the coast guard, we are opening ourselves up to mass migrations from haiti, from cuba, and also for a shift in Drug Trafficking from the current place where it is, which is the u. S. Mexican Border back to the base of 1980s and 90s of movement through the caribbean. We have to make sure the coast guard is adequately resourced to handle our third border. With regard to tsa, the cuts to tsa, im the first one to admit that certainly tsa requires some, you know, evaluation to sort of determination, you know, where it spends its money. But yeah, the reduction of expenditure on the viper teams to accept state and local Law Enforcement not only in airports but also surface transportation is perhaps unwise. A concluding comment, mr. Chairman, having spent some experience on this, its always dangerous i think for us in elected office, irrespective of party, to jump to conclusions about criminality and how to stop it. It needs to be evidencebased. We have some bipartisan agreements on that in other fields. I would suggest this is one of those opportunities, to be driven by evidencebased research in addition to the engineeringbased aspects of this process thats peerreviewed. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you. I ask unanimous consent to waive on mr. Grothman from wisconsin. Hes not a member of the subcommittee. He wanted to participate. Without objection, so ordered. The chair will now recognize mr. Comer for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And i have to say that during the twoweek recess, i spent the whole time traveling the district. I have a very, very wide district, very rural. Six hours from east to west in my district in southern kentucky. I had ten town halls, and i dont know how many meetings and how many conversations with people, and the wall always came up. And there is overwhelming support in my district to build the wall. And thats something that people expect to get done in the very near future. So i had a couple of questions, first for mr. Judd. Would the border wall have mitigated the terrible Opioid Epidemic were seeing sweep cross america, especially in my rural district in kentucky . It absolutely will, because again, we will then dictate where illegal border crossings take place if we build the wall. How many criminal gang members have crossed into the u. S. In the past five years, and do you think the border wall could have reduced that number . I dont think it could. I know it could. When we catch these individuals that are coming here and asking for asylum, one of the biggest problems that we face is when we have them in the detention facilities, theyre actually recruiting while theyre in our custody, theyre recruiting other individuals to join their gangs. And thats an extreme concern. Mr. Judd, i saw in the newspaper, the Senate Democrats assume a per mile cost of 36. 6 million per mile. Do you agree with that cost estimate . I dont. Im not an expert on what the cost will be. I just just tell you how effective it will be. What i can tell you is that 9 11 cost the government trillions of dollars. We have to a billion dollars, thats a drop in the bucket compared to what happened on 9 11. Obviously thats a concern of every taxpayer and every person that has any type of c concertificaco to build a proper wall, im an advocate of fencing, and again, it was a bipartisan effort that passed that. The problem with fencing is its defeatable. I can bring up a welding torch and cut holes in the fence. I have a brother who was a Border Patrol agent for two years and all he did all day was patch holes in the fence. A wall cannot be defeated the way a fence can be defeated. What other factors, i guess this is for anyone on the panel, what other factors can have an impact on the total cost of the wall . Are there things that can be done to about me tbuild the wal where we still have the maximum security impact . What other factors would impact the cost or could impact the cost . Anybody . I mean, obviously one of the key questions is what are the most vital areas, right . Theres parts of the border that are not likely to become major smuggling routes at least for individuals. So we dont need a wall or even a lot of fencing there, maybe just a vehicle barrier. So i certainly dont think that we need a giant wall across the whole border. Thats not my position. My position is that there are places where a wall and fencing barriers are vitally important and we dont have them. And weve authorized it in the past, and that seems crazy to me. I think thats where we should start at the very least. To address your question, one of the things that i have been impressed with, and again, this is not trying to take a political stance, im independent myself. One thing ive been impressed with is ive had the opportunity to meet with President Trump facetoface on four occasions, i had a tele fontelephonic conv with him on this issue. Hes been willing to listen to the experts and what theyve had to say. What his ultimate decision will be, i dont know. But i have had the opportunity to let him know its not 2,000 miles of wall, its strategic locations. And hes been open to that idea. Im hoping thats in fact where he will go because that will drive the cost way down. Just to add to that a little bit, the unpredictable factor in terms of how you construct a wall like this or even fencing in areas is environmental issues, private lands, all kinds of litigation that could come out of this. I think we shouldnt in any big project like that, we cannot be pollyannaish about how long this is going to take and how much it will cost. And i have huge concerns about the private property aspect of it, i agree with that. My time is up, that you are, mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. Ms. Demmings for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, for having this important hearing. First i want to just say to ms. Gibboney how sorry i am for your loss. I am the mother of three sons. And i cant imagine what it would be like to not have those hugs and talks and interaction with them. So im so sorry. Thank you. For your loss. I spent 27 years in Law Enforcement at the Orlando Police department. And i can tell you, as a 27year veteran, ive worked my share of homicides, aggravated assaults, rapes, child molestations, kidnapping kidnappings. More than i care to admit. And i wish that i could have simply put up a wall to stop it, because i would have done that. A question that came up earlier, what i can also tell you, without hesitation, is that the overwhelming majority of the people we arrested in those cases were not undocumented immigra immigrants. And so the Ranking Member is absolutely correct, that we do, as we keep america safe, it is my number one priority, we have to be careful that we are not generalizing a Certain Group of people from a certain place. If we are committed to doing this correctly. Mr. Judd, i also want to thank you for your service. This is not a political issue, its certainly not for me. Im going to believe that its not for you. You talked about how important effective border barriers, areas are. Just to kind of clear up this for me in my mind, candidate trump, when he talked about the wall, said its going to be hard and concrete, made out of rebar and steel. And thats not the wall that you support; is that correct . Actually i absolutely support a wall that can be that is not defeatable. This wall, made out of steel rebar and it has to be a wall that cannot be defeated by welding to somebody torches. So you would support a wall that was 2,000 miles no. A concrete wall absolutely not. Made out of steel and rebar . No, i support a wall in strategic locations which will then allow us to dictate where illegal crossings take place. When you say us, who exactly are you referring to . The United States Border Patrol. All right. Mr. Stodder, i understand of course that you have worked on border issues in the department of Homeland Security for 15 years under two administrations. Thank you so much for your service as well. And you stated that we have greatly improved our Border Security against the most pressing threats to Public Safety, including terrorism, transnational organized crime. And we have established for greater control over illegal immigration on our southwest border than at any other time over the last four decades. Can you explain in more detail, i dont think we can talk about it enough, how weve greatly improved our Border Security. What has changed . What did we not have four decades ago that we now have . What i can directly speak to, since i served in the Bush Administration in the years after 9 11 and also serving in the Obama Administration,ened. There a bipartisan consensus, both administrations and in congress, to strengthen border enforcement. We have tripled the size of the Border Patrol. We have deployed sensors, aerial drones across the border. We have put fences, secure fences in important strategic locations at the border. Are more fences needed in strategic places . I dont doubt it. I think thats a question for the local Border Patrol sector chiefs to determine in their areas of responsibility what the right mixture of personnel, technology, and infrastructure really is. The other thing is i thinkic i. C. E. , immigration and customs enforcement, are fairly strong. Here is the other thing to focus on here. Number one, with regard to mexican immigration, you have to think in terms of the undocumented population in the United States, which is declining. Its around 11 Million People right now, down from about 12 Million People ten years ago. Less than half of that population now, it was Just Announced the other day, is mexican. So that population is now mostly visa overstays. Its less than half is the mexican population. And its declining. The numbers of people coming across the border now, the Border Patrol is regularly apprehending 4,000 people at the border every year, down from 1. 6 million when i started in the Bush Administration after 9 11. About half of those people are from central america. So the Central Americans are coming up, and those folks, either apprehended by the Border Patrol or the office of Field Operations at the port of entry, most of those folks are actually claiming acsylumasylum, theyreg violence or other difficulties in central america, or theyve been told to do so by the smugglers. Some are legitimate, some are not. But all of them are entitled to a day in court in their immigration courts if they pass a credible fear screening, and 90 of them have passed a credible fear. We have become far more effective at policing the flow of people coming from mexico. Mexico has changed economically, so more people are staying home, fewer people are coming. But we still have Serious Problems and the serious challenge were facing now in terms of migration is central america. Thats straining our resources, because people are claiming asylum, but there are 500,000person backlogs in our immigration courts. Thats what causes cpp and i. C. E. To have to release those folks into the United States pending their claims. If we were to spend the first billion dollars i would spend in border enforcement probably would be going towards the immigration courts, to staff those courts so we can actually expeditiously and efficiently process asylum claims, so we dont have to have the people in the United States for the five, six, seven years it takes, often, to process an asylum claim. That would send a message to the smugglers to say this is not a free pass to come to the United States. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for the additional time. I yield back. You mentioned asylum. Do you think that Congress Needs to relook at how some of those statutes operate so that we can kind of not incentivize so many people to come in and make claims that arent meritorious . Its a difficult question. The way the system works right now is people, kids who come unaccompanied dont have to come through the credible fear screening, they just come in, if theyre coming from central america, not from mexico. The issue of whether credible fear should be looked at again i think is a difficult, tricky question, because i think the reality is, the stakes of being wrong, of a uscis, u. S. Citizenship officer being wrong, can result in certain circumstances of somebody going back to el salvador or honduras and being killed. So the stakes are high in terms of how we think about the credible fear test. Now, having said that, i think the statistics are, of people coming from el salvador and honduras and to a lesser extent guatemala, 95 of them make it through credible fear screening. And the immigration courts, 50 or 60 . Electric recognize mlet me r for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and thank you for the fantastic job you do chairing this subcommittee. Ms. Gibboney, ive noticed some members of the congress and many of these saturday night comedians try to make jokes about the wall. Its not much of a joke to you, is it . No, it is not. I dont see whats funny about it, because they have not been affected personally, because if they would, they would think differently also. I wish that everybody could have heard your testimony. Ive always heard that the worst thing that can ever happen to you is to outlive one of your children. Certainly you have our condolences. Let me say this. You know, some people imply or even say that if we try to enforce our immigration laws, that its cruel or somethings wrong with it. But, you know, i notice in some of the staff material, president netanyahu of israel, he said President Trump is right, i built a wall along israels southern border, it stopped all illegal immigration, great success, great idea. Somehow he can do it and not be criticized, but if we try to do it, theres something wrong with it. Also i notice in the material ive been given from the staff, i mean, even mr. Stodder said the border works in certain strategic locations, and i think that makes a lot of sense to me. I know the material weve been given says that just before they built the first wall in san diego, there were 700,000, approximately 700,000 apprehensions. And this last year it was down to 31,000. So a wall has been very, very effective there. You know, the situation is this. You know, theres two statistics that tell the whole story. With only 4 of the worlds population, we buy almost 22 of the worlds goods. We have a standard of living far beyond what anybody else has. So you can certainly understand why hundreds of millions, maybe even a couple of billion want to come here. And the second statistic is that 58 of the people in the world have to get by on 4 or less a day. I mean most people in this country dont realize how blessed we are, how fortunate we are. And you can understand why so many people want to come here. And we sympathize with all these people. Americans are the kindest, most general us, most sympathetic people in the world. But we simply cant open our borders and just take in everybody who wants to come, because our hospitals, our jails, or sewers, our schools, our roads, our whole infrastructure, not to even mention our economy, we couldnt handle the rapid influx of people that would come here. And theres no other country that faces the problem that we face to the extent that we face it. And so its not cruel, its just common sense. Dr. Camarota, the staff says that theres a recent National Academy for Sciences Study that estimated the net fiscal drain of each illegal crosser was 774,000. Are you familiar with that study . Let me be clear. What the National Academy did was, was calculate the drain and or fiscal benefit, if somebody is very skilled. What i did was apply that to the skill level of Illegal Immigrants to come up with an estimate, how big it would be. So i took their estimates by education and looked at the education of the illegals, and it comes to about 75,000 peril leg per illegal. Also weve been provided with figures, the irs has been paying out billions in improper payments to Illegal Immigrants every year through the use of refundable tax credits. Have you looked at that . Yes, particularly the refundable portion of the additional child tax credit. The irs a while ago made the determination that they could pay that out and didnt have to worry so much about illegal status. So yes, they are clearly paying hundreds of millions if not billions out to Illegal Immigrants. Theres no question. Its also the case that they pay some out in the earned income tax credit, but less. Well, final question. Let me ask you this. For years, weve seen this figure, and even in the material that weve been given for this hearing, that says 11 million Illegal Immigrants. Almost everybody i talk to estimates that its way more than that. Way more. And were really probably talking 20 or 30 million. But youve studied this in detail and i havent. Tell me what you feel is the accurate or most accurate figure in that regard. Its important to recognize that it is illegal and difficult to measure. There is a margin of repoerror. If youre asking me, i think its 10 to 12 million. Could it be higher . Yes, it could be. But briefly, the way we arrive at a number like that, we know how many legal immigrants there should be in the United States, then we look at the data that the Census Bureau collects that identifies immigrants. We subtract that out and we get a residual. That number is about 10 million. Then you think, maybe were missing 10 based on some other research. But it could be 20 . But you could see how it doesnt get up to 20 million. Is the Census Bureau data itself any good . Im going to argue yes, because when we look at what the data shows us about School Enrollment or what the data shows us about birth, it pretty well lines up with administrative data. So i think that those estimates are right. Let me stop you and ask one last thing. How many billions have we allowed to immigrate legally over lets say the last 50 years . The total foreignborn is 45 or 46 million today in 2017 and about 10 or 12 of that is illegal. So there are about 33 million, 32 million legally present in the United States who are foreign born. Some of them become citizens. My point is no other country in the world has even come close. True. In allowing people to immigrate legally as we have. Thank you very much. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I thank the gentleman. The time has now expired. The chair will now recognize our guest from wisconsin. Youre confident, how long has that 11 million figure been out there, how long, if i would ask you or somebody in your position, how many people are here illegally, would we hear the 11 million figure . We think its been around that number for like eight years now. Because every year we take the American Community survey or the Current Population survey and try to estimate it. What was it in the year 2000 . I think the general estimate is somewhere around 8 million. Im not sure thats right, but okay. Im going to ask you guys some questions as far as the overall cost. Is there any estimate out there of the amount of money were paying every year for health care for people who are here illegally . Do you want to count like u. S. Born children or just the illegal immigrant . Because a lot of children of Illegal Immigrants are signed up for medicaid. So that would be a big cost. Either estimate. Its several billion dollars a year. For treatment for the insured. Because the illegal population makes up a large share of the uninsured. Several billion. What, 5 billion . Yes, that would be a perfectly okay. I know its difficult to get records. Are there any estimates, the degree to which incomebased transfer payments are going to people illegally . I hear anecdotal evidenced from income maintenance workers in my district that they are getting people who are illegal coming here. Do we have an estimate on the total amount of what we call Welfare Benefits going to people here illegally . We do have some estimates. Remember that an illegal immigrant can collect benefits on behalf of a u. S. Born child. If we include that, then those numbers certainly run, you know, to over 10 billion. If you count things like the u. S. Born child on medicaid. A family, for example, can get food stamps even though the parents are illegal because the food stamps come in the name of the u. S. Born children. Theres a lot of that going on. Dont you believe that there are a lot of people, even adults, who are signing up for benefits who may not be citizens . May not be citizens . Sure. There are a lot of legal immigrants who also access the welfare system. I could give you my estimates for those things. I dont have them right in front of them in front of me. How about Illegal Immigrants . We, we know from the survey of income and participation, where they pretty well identify themselves as illegal based on questions, that more than half of households headed by Illegal Immigrants have someone in that household signed up for some kind of benefits. Typically the noncash programs. Could you give me the total amount, if you had to throw out a number there . The total amount that Illegal Immigrants are receiving in income transfers, cash, and noncash type stuff . Right. Oh, you know, that would be well over 10 billion, at least. More than that. Most of it from the federal government. And of course most of that is going to u. S. Citizens, ultimately. It depends on how you view it, right . If you have a family getting food stamps, the parents can certainly feed themselves on those food stamps. If the family lives in Public Housing because they have one u. S. Born children, which is certainly allowed, then the parents are benefiting. So it depends on how you want to but most systems dont cut off u. S. Citizen children from benefits. Thats right. Thats why they can use those programs for their u. S. Born children. Do you know how many people in our criminal justice system, how many people in local jails, prisons, are Illegal Immigrants . Do we have hard numbers on that . Incomplete numbers. Substantial . I mean, when i hear, talking to people who run these facilities, they think its a significant situation, even in wisconsin. But do you have any estimates . Remember, the federal government is paying out lots of money already through the scap program. That might be a place to begin, to look at what share of inmates in jails and prisons. Do you know what the age of consent is in other countries around the world . I know its less than u. S. I dont know. Does anyone know what the age of consent is in mexico, for example . Mr. Stodder, youve been involved in this area for quite a while. Do you know . I dont know the age of consent in mexico. Thats shocking. Well, obviously when we have people coming from another culture, its important, you know, they adapt to our culture. How long were you involved in this game, mr. Stodder, that you dont know that . The age of consent in mexico . Yes. Its never been presented to me, to know what the age of consent is in mexico. I know the age of consent in the u. S. Is 18. It various from state to state, but yes. 18 in some areas, 16 in others. Isnt it age 12 in many parts of mexico . Do you view that as a potential problem, when people come into this country, men come into this country and are used to living in a culture in which the age of consent is 12 . Should people talk about that, should people be educated about that . Whats the relevance of it . What are you driving at . I didnt im just saying from a Law Enforcement standpoint, absolutely. What were doing is were taking people into our country, people are coming to our country that have a different set of rules, and theyre trying to take those sets of rules and apply them here in the United States, when thats wrong. Again, were talking about illegal acts. Were not talking about legal acts. Were not talking about legal immigration. Were talking about illegal immigration. When illegal aliens come to the United States, and thats why ms. Gibboney and ms. Espinoza are here today, because these individuals come from countries that do not enforce our laws. Because they were allowed to break their laws, they think they can brae any law. Mr. Stodder cant figure it out, but you see a danger in people coming to this country who dont know what our laws are with regard to the age of consent, and may think the laws in this country are the same as the laws in other countries. And for those of us who care about women or young girls, we might view that as a concern. We do. In fact, all you have to look at is what happened in the school in virginia where that young girl was raped by two illegal two people who crossed the border illegally who were ultimately released under the catch and release program, which is why i am so anti, against the catch and release program. But we see that people who break our laws willfully, then try to apply their set of rules that they brought from their country into our own country. And that creates a huge drain on Law Enforcement. Not just a physical drain but a drain on the victims. And i do want to state also that not enforcing our laws encourages more breaking of the laws. And we certainly do not want to import more crime. I dont think theres any evidence to indicate that kids under the age of 18, whatever their age, whatever the age of consent in their home countries, makes them more or less likely to commit crimes once theyre here. I think the data is not there. I dont think thats what the data says. The one thing i will say about the age of consent that is important to think about, for this congress to think about, is with regard to the Central American unaccompanied minors who are coming here. If they are under 18 and coming unaccompanied. Im running out of my time here. Im well past my time and the chairman has indulged me. I just will say, it concerns me if people are not being informed what our culture and our laws are, who are coming here from other countries, who think its perfectly okay to have sex with a 13yearold, if thats the culture coming out of. But thank you. The gentlemans time has expired. Im a recognize myself for five minutes. Mr. Judd, its been reported there have been a dramatic drop in illegal crossings over the past several months. Do you attribute that to the new posture being utilized by the Trump Administration and secretary kelly . I know it is. In fact when we interview these individuals that are currently crossing the border, they know that the laws are going to be enforced. The simple promise that the laws were going to be enforced have driven down. I must warn you, were in a honeymoon period. We have to continue to enforce laws. Because if we dont, illegal immigration is going to go back up. Can i say one quick thing about that questions what im interesting about this drop is, look, conditions havent changed in central america, just a lot fewer people have come. What that reminds us is migration is a choice. Peoples lives might be difficult, but the fact is they make a choice to come. Things havent changed. A lot of people say, look, people are compelled to come, they have no other option. But just the president s rhetoric mostly has affected peoples behavior. Imagine if we follow it up with actual policy. I think its too soon to make a judgment on that. I think the other way of let me just, i got a couple of things i want to get to. I appreciate it. Mr. Judd, crime on the border, a real problem . Its a huge problem. In fact if you look at Border Patrol agents, we are assaulted at a rate higher than any other Law Enforcement agency in the entire United States. Yes, border crime is a huge issue. Because i think mr. Stodder had mentioned the cartel leaders, theyre not exactly crossing the border. But does that mean the cartels arent a major problem on the border or do you think they are . No, i know the cartel cartels, when i joined the Border Patrol in 1997, almost 20 years ago, we had mom and pop smuggling organizations. That does not happen anymore. Every single facet of crime is controlled by very, very dangerous cartels, pa pathologically dangerous. They have no regard for human life whatsoever as we currently see in mexico. Unfortunately that is starting to spill over into the United States, because they operate here in the United States now, where is they didnt do that 20 years ago. Dr. Camarota, let me ask you this. You agree that there clearly are a number of immigrants, legal immigrants, i think, who have a very positive Economic Impact on our society . Especially in the fiscal area, the most educated immigrants are definitely a fiscal benefit. Paying more in taxes than they use in services. But that doesnt describe the typical illegal immigrant. So theres a difference between the people coming through the legal channels, it may not always be enforced, but our laws are not to be a public charge, they have to support themselves, correct . That is the law, although its defined in a very narrow way, so its not that meaningful. Youre talking about people who are going through obviously unauthorized channels, and theres even a difference between the visa overstays versus the Border Crossers. The Border Crossers would have even less skills. They would be the least educated. Okay. Ms. Espinoza, youve seen a variety of these issues or these tragedies over many, many years, and youve been an activist. Can you just kind of crystallize for us the importance of this issue and how it affects some of the human lives that youve been able to work with over these many years . Yes, mr. Chairman, thank you. What troubles us most is that all of these crimes and killings are preventible. And we only deal with the killings of americans. However child molestation and rape is very high as well. You can see stats in north carolina. And what is also very troubling is the fact that our own victims, american victims are misguided through the system. And agnes here was not allowed to give an impact victims impact statement. So securing the border and enforcing laws, and i am for border wall and fencing just like mr. Judd here. And i want to say also you agree with i think most of the witnesses, you dont need to do a 2,000mile one, because there are some areas correct. So you basically do it in areas where it would stop the crossing. Yes, sir, thats common sense. I dont want this issue to be politicized. Im a former democrat. My father was born in mexico. Ive been in the Strawberry Fields since i was 8 years old. So this is not a political issue. When my husband and i started this remembrance project, we looked at the issue. It was about an officer in houston, texas, who was shot by an illegal alien and there was a lawsuit brought against the city by his widow who was also a police officer, jocelyn johnson. And that was about sanctuary cities. Never heard of it before. We were not political. And here we are, and again, i just stress to you, just look at the issue here. Not politicize american lives. We have seen so much. And again, i appreciate your time. But i just cant tell you how much, if you would just please look at the issue and focus on keeping americans safe. Thank you, i appreciate that. Im going to recognize my friend from california for five minutes. Tau, mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and everyone who joined the hearing, including all of the witnesses. Im more taken by the fact that a lot of what were dealing with here is symptoms of a larger problem, and that is for this country and particularly for congress, to come up with thoughtful immigration policy and reform. In a global economy, where the world has clearly changed, as the chairman said in his introductory comments, things have changed. In this country, immigration and diversity is the basis of our success and our birth. And its been part of our success ever since. And differentiates us from every other country in the world. Having that having said that, we need to have immigration policy thats right, that protects against the kind of criminality that weve heard about, both personally and statistically today. I just want to read one quote, because senator moynihan many years ago in congress, across the other side of the aisle, once famously said, everybody is allowed their own opinions but not their own facts. For some weird reason we have now entered into a period, whether its alternative facts or not, we fight opinions, period. Thats why maybe this is an opportunity, mr. Chairman, to do what we have recently been able to do on a bipartisan level when it comes to the adjudication process and criminality, is to deal with evidencebased research. And if all of you could help us with that, knowing of your very strong passions and opinions and different perspectives, i think we would get to the point that the chairman started this committee on, is our failure to come up with an immigration policy thats effective, that allows people to come to this country, that the statue of liberty proudly welcomes, that want to come here and have opportunity, but under conditions that we set as a nation in terms of policy to both protect the citizens who are here now but enable those incoming immigrants to flourish as the founders wanted them to do. So i just wanted to read one quote, because we get into these dueling perspectives of cost. From a New York Times Magazine Article that was actually quoted by the majority staff, basically corroborating mr. Camarotas comments and research. But it went on to say, and i quote, there are many ways to debate immigration but when it comes to economics, there isnt much of a debate at all. Nearly all economists of all political persuasions agree that immigrants, those here legally or not, benefit the overall economy, and that is not controversial. He goes on to quote from heidi scherholtz that says, quote, there is a consensus that on average the incomes of families in this country are increased by a small but clearly positive amount when it comes to immigration, end quote. Ill end my comments by saying, maybe this is an opportunity in this relatively poorly attended hearing, that all of us could focus on the real issue, that we recognize that immigration is a great benefit to this country, and it is a basis of this countrys success. In california, there is plenty of research that shows that the reason were the sixth largest economy is because we have the most diversity and tare the mos reflective of the global economy. Having said that, we have to get immigration policy right so that the things that happened can be reduced. I hope, mr. Chairman, this is the opening of a new chapter and a bipartisan effort to put our efforts to where its most effective. I thank the gentleman. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from georgia, mr. Hice, for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Mr. Judd, let me begin with you. How did the construction of the multilayer border fence in san diego back in 96 impact illegal entry into the area . It moved illegal entry over to tucson, arizona, and it caused a huge impact. What i can tell you, representative hice, is that everywhere that we have built a fence, we have been effective. We have been effective in controlling where illegal immigration takes place which allows me to be more effective in the number of illegal aliens that i take into custody. Do you have any idea how many appe apprehensions there have been, the difference before the wall was built in san diego as to apprehensions now imrequest. Yeah, again, the High Water Mark was the very light 90s, early 2000s. And san diego was a fairly busy place. After the fences were built, the double layer fences, the effective barriers were built, illegal immigration dropped to next to nothing in san diego. And it all moved out to the locations where there werent physical barriers. Let me give you some figures that i found. And you can verify this for me. What we have seen is there were in 1996, prior to the barrier, there were 480,000 apprehensions in 1996. The most recent figures, 2016, there were under 32,000. Thats over a 93 decrease. And that is largely due to the enforcement posture which we took in san diego. Unfortunately we didnt take that same enforcement posture in the other sectors such as tucson, arizona, so we drove everything out there. Since we have been taking those same types of postures, weve driven down illegal immigration in tucson as well. What are some of the postures . I realize we cant quantify the effectiveness totally with the layered wall that has been built. But there is no doubt the correlation, the numbers have dropped drastically, over 93 , since it was put in place. What other measures have been taken in san diego . Well, the most important measures that we took was not only did we build these barriers, but we promised that anybody that crossed in that particular corridor, we were going to detain them, keep them in custody, and we were going to hold them until they had their deportation hearings, whereas in other locations, if we took them into custody and there wasnt bed space with i. C. E. , we would end up walking them out the door and letting them go and hope they would show up for their immigration a couple of years down the road. In san diego we used what was called the consequence delivery system, which then anybody that crossed through that corridor we would hold in custody and we would put them through deportation proceedings. Okay. Mr. Camarota, let me ask you, do you believe that a border wall will help us address the issue of Human Trafficking . Yes. I would second what mr. Judd was saying. If fencing barriers in key places could make an enormous difference as a force multiplier and would help us interdict trafficki trafficking. Have these discussions come up in various communities where youve had talks on this issue . I dont understand. Do you mean have you brought this up at the southwest border, specifically the issue of Human Trafficking . The agents ive spoken to when ive traveled down there all, like mr. Judd, seem to feel strongly about the wall being helpful. So it would help in multiple ways, be it illegal individuals, Drug Trafficking, gangs, you believe it would be helpful across the border . Very helpful, sure. Mr. Judd, let me come back to you, because im intrigued with whats happened in san diego and your experiences overall. What other kind of technologies do you think would be implemented in addition to a physical barrier . First and foremost, i worked in the busiest sector, the tucson sector. Individually, i ran a team of agents, which was a mobile interdetection team. We were arresting a hundred illegal aliens a light, a hundred people per night. Those 100 people we were arresting, 300 people were did he tell getting away from us, because of the number of people coming across. When we started deploying technology such as drones, such as more sensors, better scope trucks that had radar on them, when we started deploying that and became more effective, what we did was shifted the illegal immigration to other places that didnt have that. So what im going to total you is that it has to be comprehensive. Because we cant just continue to shift the burden to different sectors. We have to sure. I get that. But youre talking everything from drones to virtual walls to more they all work. All of the above are necessary. They all work. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, mr. Chairman. I yield. The gentleman yields back. I want to thank the witnesses for your testimony, very much appreciate it. A couple of things i think that we got from the hearing, were not talking about a 2,000mile wall. Its going to be basically finishing the job of the 2006 secure fence act. Those are very important locations that can be a force multiplier. Doing that and reducing the flow can reduce burdens on taxpayers on the back end and reduce crime, which is obviously very important. Also these crime victims have stories to tell, and these stories need to be told. The tragedy is the federal government is partly responsible for these things. And that really upsets me, and youve got to do better. This committee is going to monitor the cost of this thing. We dont want to we dont want to waste money. But im convinced that this can be done creatively where youre not just appropriating money but actually using some of the money thats seized or some of these other programs that are clearly running amok and diverting money, that was probably a better way to do it. And then i think mr. Judd, physical security, just one aspect, important aspect, but just one. Youve got to support the Border Patrol. Weve got to have good policies so that people know the law is going to be enforced. And weve got to deal with this issue of people who are convicted criminals, here illegally, being released back into society rather than being sent back. We cannot allow additional crimes to be committed at that point, and weve seen it time and time again. So i appreciate everybodys time and testimony. This is going to be an issue that the committee is going to continue to deal with. So thank you, and with that, this hearing stands adjourned. [ indiscernible conversation ] [ indiscernible conversation ]