Including spark light. Giving you a front row seat to democracy. This is charles sigar with the Government Accountability office, she is a managing director for Strategic Issues for the gta. Thank you for coming by thank you for letting me be here. We will talk about the high risk, as its known as, before we start the conversation, expand the work for g. A. O. For those who dont know what you do. G. A. O. Is sometimes referred to as the conventional watchdog, we evaluate federal programs, conducting financial audits, doing investigations, sometimes doing big protest, all of this with an eye towards more effective and efficient government. We are objective, fact based, nonpartisan, and independent. And we make recommendations to federal agencies, as well as sometimes recommendations to congress to make government work better. And to that end, you put out something called a high risk list. How did this come about . This high risk list has existed for more than three decades, and it started in 1990 as a way to help focus congressional attention on an oversight agenda to call their attention to the areas that are at greatest risk of fraud abuse and mismanagement or in need of fundamental transmit. So we started the list in 1990, since that time, we have been issuing a new update at the beginning of every new congress, so that congress can be aware of what the core issues are that really command their attention. And, as we do, that we are highlighting areas that are being added to the list, areas that are being removed from the list, and then for each of those areas, we are also showing what progress has been made. Are they meeting the requirements that we set out, as the more work to be done, and within, that if we go to g. A. O. Com, you can also see all of the underlying work that informs all of this. Everything on the list, if you want to dive deep, there is a lot of detail there. You can see all of the facts and figures behind, it and you also can see all of the recommendations that we have made it to federal agencies, as well as areas where congress can take action to improve government operations. Generally what gets a program on the list . There are a combination of factors that go into deciding what goes on the list. So these include both qualitative and quantitative factors. Starting with the quantitative factors, it has to be something that is a billion dollars or more that is at risk of fraud worse or abuse, maybe an improper payment has already occurred or is at risk of occurring, or, on the qualitative side, things that are at risk of threats to life, health, and safety, national defense, national security, as well as privacy. So looking at all of those factors and combination as well as our on going oversight of federal programs and insight, and then also foresight, for things that we think are on the horizon that congress should be paying attention to. That all goes into the determination of what is high risk area. Some of the broad categories on this years list, some of the broad ones, that it concludes the coronation of Public Health emergencies being on that list, enforcement of tax laws, management of Human Capital, the defense acquisition, and improving modernizing up the management of the federal prison system, and ensuring the nations security. Starting with that first one, when it comes to Public Health emergencies, what is this specifically covid related or were there other factors in you looking at this. We also lived through Public Health emergencies over the last couple of years, and that is a partisan. This is an area that we added kind of out of cycle. So we add it in the middle of a congressional session in 2022, because we thought it was important for congress to be aware of this. We also want it to focus the agencys attention on this area. So in looking at the department of health and Human Services, both leadership of in ordination of Public Health emergencies as well as responses to recoveries from national disasters. This certainly is informed by the most recent experience of the covid19 pandemic but it actually goes back more than a decade as we were looking at zika and ebola and other Public Health emergencies. As well theres responses to national disasters, where we saw the need for greater coordination both in the department of health and Human Services across the entire federal government, and then with state and local governments and private sector entities. The larger idea of waste fraud abuse, how does that directly relate then to looking at the pandemic issue. Looking at the pandemic, issue it plays out in a number of areas, and another area that we added kind of out of cycle in 2022 we add it to the high risk list, to the unemployment benefits, this of course is an area where we wish we had done a broad range of work on over many years. But there was really a spotlight on this program during the pandemic, because there were millions of people in need of unemployment assistance. So as that was happening, there were a lot of difficulties in providing the administrative operations for this federal state program to provide that assistance effectively and efficiently, and unfortunately, there was a fair amount of fraud along the way, were people who did not actually qualify for the benefits where receiving those benefits. So we added that to the list last year into thousand 22. Apologies, i imagine that some of the response in these various agencies when they were doing this in the heat of battle ultimately they were sometime before we could put out things that we shouldnt have. Its always attention, because of course, there was an emergency. So congress had provided the assistance in the agencies want to act quickly. But at the same time, you really need to build in that accountability at the onset, and have some kind of smooth certification system that requires documentation to ensure that the people who were the this assistance can get it and the bad actors, the fraudsters, dont receive them. In general, then how it has done if they put out money that has not been put out, what is the potential of getting it back . Have they told you the potential there . Its ongoing, so we work closely with the agencies. We also work closely with federal agencies and people who are counterparts at the executive branch industries. And inappropriate, we also make referrals to Law Enforcement agencies. Some fans have been recovered, some funds, unfortunately, probably will never be recovered, and these efforts are ongoing, but to identify fraud where it happens, but also to recover whatever we can as a federal government. Michelle sagar, here from the g. A. O. On the Government Accountability office. Looking at the high risk list, you can find online, you can find it on cspans website to if you want to look at some of those categories in the list. But if you want to call and ask your questions about what theyve discovered, 202748 8000 for democrats. 20274 for republicans and independents, 202748 8002. And if you want to text us a question or comment, you can do that at 202748 8003. One of those other categories, it is getting a lot of discussion lately on capitol hill was tax law, and particularly the enforcement of tax law. What did the g. A. O. Find . This is an area that was added to the original list in 1990 and it has remained on the list. It is important to point out that even for some of these areas that were charter members, if you will, there has been incredible progress in various ways over the ensue in decades. So there are really two areas that we are looking. At one of them is the tax gap, which is the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid, and trying to narrow that gap, so the funding that is due to the federal government and then people file their taxes actually received. In the second area is Identity Theft refund from where people are claiming others refunds when they are actually not really their refunds. So weve been working with irs on a number of areas, including these, and we have a number of recommendations, the agency recently received news leadership, so he is in, place denny ruffles a place is the new commissioner of the Internal Revenue service. The irs also has a new Strategic Plan that is playing out as we speak, and then congress provided about 80 billion dollars to the irs to the inflation protection act, and those funds will help both fill gaps have been created through some budget crunches over more than a decade, so theyve already been a 5000 people, they have plans to hire 5000 more this year alone. And as this is all happening, theyre also working to implement jps open recommendations. That second part of the fraud how does that generally work, what is discovered there. The refund fraud, there have been a number of efforts put into place. So for example, if you are a worker who has a w too, that becomes a little sooner than it does a couple years ago, and that then allows you to file for your taxes sooner than you might have been able to, say a decade ago. And that has been somewhat successful, another thing that is underway is as we have recommended, irs is taking action on this, but there is still more work to be done in terms of digitizing papers for and then that allows the return to be tracked as it goes through the review process. Its the first one as far as the tax cap, is this just a simple enforcement of finding people who owe the taxes and making sure they pay them . It is that, but it is also things such as complex large partnerships where you have multiple entities that are part of a return corporate so it can be very complex, but it is also the individual tax filing as well. Here for this conversation, our first call from you come from cornelius, cornelius is in louisiana. Republican line. You are on with our guest, michelle sagar, of the Government Accountability office. Go ahead. Yeah, miss michelle. I used to work for the federal bureau i saw you had the federal bureau of prisons on your list. And essentially they abused me, along with the fbi. They set me up and everything. So what i want to know from the Government Accountability office is, they used their money to set me up. Is there anything yall can do . Thank you pedro, thank you cspan. Thank you for calling and thank you for that question. The caller talked about the federal bureau of prison system management, which is a new area that will be added to the list this year. Im sorry to hear what you have experienced, and you call attention to something that is part of the reason for the addition of the bureau of prison systems to the high risk list this year. And that is staffing challenges. And that creates issues for both the inmates as well as for the staff in the bureau of prison systems as far as their safety. So that is part of the problem, in addition to that, it is the programs to clear the persons that will make sure that as the prison mates are serving their time, there are opportunities in place for them to work towards their release and be able to become productive contributors to society. And knowing what works and what doesnt along the way. So our leader, the general of United States has met with a new bureau system, and having a leader in place, there were six leaders and six years, there is now a leader. She is committed to working with us to move forward on these areas, and we look forward to working with the bureau of prisons as they implement our recommendations. Theres a story about that in the new york times, one of the things that they highlight, that they say theres been no problem of hiring says the bureau presence, there is been 160,000 inmates 162 prison camps employing a workforce of about 3400 34,000 people who often request in stating county corrections workers. The healing capital issues are certainly substantial for the bureau of prison systems, and in fact, for 22 of the 37 areas on the highrisk list, skills gaps are part of the reason why this area is on the highrisk list. So it affects all sectors of society, it also includes both hiring as well as retention. As well as just helping people understand what positions are available and that is at the center of government, both for their own Human Capital challenges, but also for other federal agencies about what they could do to hire and retain people who are dedicated to public service. So this is an area that we, again, have seen progress in. There is a director at the office of personal management. So that is good news. There is that leadership commitment in time, but then going forward. We will continue to work with them as they are working on their own Human Capital challenges, as well as working with federal agencies across the government as they are trying to meet their hiring challenges. Lets hear from john, johnson minnesota, democrats line. John. Two things, i am from a rural a district, and, of course, many farmers here. When the claude ppe were being given out during the pandemic, some of the farmers were splitting their farms up so they could have the mother got 20, 000, the father got 20, 000, so the son got 20,000. Some of that money was to go to payroll, then they use that money to pay each other as employees. And, furthermore, the bankers told these people, and they are good republicans, conservative people, bankers told them, do not pay those loans back. They wont come after you. So i think that was a huge front going on. And second of all, farmers are getting, every year, every farmer in this country has 30 paid by the tax payers towards their top crop insurance. 30 per acre. You sew something with 10,000 per acre, which is not uncommon anymore. 70,000 right off the top. And doesnt matter the fact that we have not had three years of the highest Commodity Prices in the history of the United States. These guys are floating in money, and they are still being subsidized. We will leave it there, we will let our guests respond to that. Thank you for the call, i will respond specifically to the questions you raised about paycheck protection program, and there was also the Economic Injury disaster loan program. These are areas that were also very much focused on in collaboration with our other accountability partners. There is a pandemic a sponsor accountability, as well as the Inspector GeneralCommunity Across the government. And so, in a case, where you are others who are listening have noticed fraud, you can certainly reach out to g. A. O. At fraud myth at g. A. O. Gov, or go to our website and you can find more information about how to report fraud similarly for example at usda the department of agriculture if there is a specific fraud issue, you can reach out to their Inspector General and that will help begin the process to respond to this fraud, and to responsibly use taxpayer dollars. You talk about action plans for the agencies that tried to resolve these issues that you bring up. What makes a good action plan . There are a couple of things. One is a part of the high criterias we are assessing highrisk areas icat so we are needing that leadership commitment, and we make sure that the person at the top, and their team, are dedicated to initiating action. So you need to have capacity, that includes not only, leader but also some other staff that are at the agency as well as the funding in the technology. So that action plan needs to include goals, metrics, and you have to see whether or not you are making the progress overtime. So the final criterion that we use is demonstrated progress so leadership, capacity, action plan, that leads to include those metrics, milestones, goals, and they are monitoring all of that to hopefully, in the, and be able to demonstrate some progress. Lets hear from frank. Frank is in chicago. Hey, good morning, quick question, but thank you for learning about all this. I saw the geo d was on the list in a couple areas, particularly weapons, acquiring weapons, financial management. They never passed an audit, and they cant be audited. What happens to the report that you were doing when youre reviewing the department of defense, the pentagon, the state department . I kind of want you to know more into that action plan. Because they spent almost a trillion dollars of our money every year up. With dod to acknowledge the actions that have happened and acknowledge what needs to happen. Getting to a clean, financial audit remains elusive. That is something we are very much focused on that we raise with congress, we work with the department of defense on. Another area is an area that has been on the high risk list since its inception in 1990, that is dod weapon systems acquisition. It really gets down to the basics that are so important to any acquisition at any federal agency. Performance, cost and schedule. When the costs are out of control, when schedules and goals are not met, that signals a problem. Though progress has been made in a number of areas over the decades, given the scale of what the dod does and the number of evolving Weapons Systems acquired, it is an area that we remain focused on. Host a part of its is legislation such as acquisition reforms approved for 2016 2017 prompted the dod to take action to improve outcome systems that work taking longer to develop into costing more, performing at lower than anticipated levels. Can you elaborate . Guest what you landed on is something that happened when we issue the high risk list, it becomes a catalyst for action. It becomes a roadmap for congress to take action and conduct oversight, conduct congressional hearings, write oversight letters. In this case, Congress Passed legislation, which is sometimes necessary in order to prop the action or allow the action to happen statutorily. That is what happened here, to allow that action happen statutorily. Thats what is happened here that is good news. What more needs to be done. What would be the recommendation . Because you do make recommendations . What would you recommend on that front that. On that, front we are continuing to monitor the efforts that are underway. We also have a report that we issue every year looking at defense weapon systems across the board and so we can look forward to that about june july summer timeframe and in the midst of all of this i also w