You also heard, as i mentioned when i wrote my mem wires, that we saw the impeach earl warren signs and i always wondered who this earl warren was. Later on of course i would figure it out, that it was the chief justice of the United States and he was in trouble in part because of brown. I guess there is no way i could say did you ever think that you would be sitting in the building where earl warren worked. Not only didnt i think of that, i didnt think that i would ever see the building where he worked. Now, as you found out what it meant as you grow older, did you have some idea of what it might mean, what it could mean as opposed to what it may have turned out to mean . You know, my grandfather was an interesting man, he of course, dominated our lives and he felt that as these rights were vindicated that we had an obligation to measure up to use them. I will give you a separate example. When the Savanna Public Library finally desegregated and we were allowed to go to the main library, his point was that we were obligated to use it. That is, we had to show up no matter what and we had to read books because we finally had a right to do so. So when it came to education, as the rights became available, we had an obligation to use them properly so he would say to me in 1964 when i went to a seminary which was previously all white, he said, dont shame me and dont shame the race. In other words, you have to perform. Do you think that the brown decision had something to do with opening the doors in the seminary that you attended . Oh, i think the seminary i think it had an impact in lots of ways. Absolutely. That was 1964. That was ten years later and things were changing slowly, but absolutely. I think it got the ball rolling, i think it changed attitudes, it changed the legal arrangements, people like phyllis cravage who is on the 11th circuit now, she was on the board of education in savanna and started moving things in that direction back then. So in talking with her and people like ww law in savanna and previously before that saul c. Johnson who ran the informant in savanna, absolutely. There was a combination of things that moved us in that direction. So, yes, it did have an impact. But yet at the same time youve been critical of the jurisprudence that created brown. Oh, i think the not critical in that sense. It could have been stronger in the sense that, i mean, we all when we do opinions you look at another opinion and you say, well, i dont agree with this approach or that, but, no, not with the bottom line obviously. So what do you think it has turned out to mean, the brown decision, all these years later . Oh, i think it really did something that was could have been done back when plessy was decided in the 1890s and that is to affirm something that is clear in the 14th amendment and that is that all citizens had the same rights, all citizens of the United States. And made it possible i guess in a practical way for us all to have or at least have the possibility to have the same education. I mean, you know, if you look, for example, i happen to be a big sports fan and when i grew up games like georgia florida meant nothing. It meant nothing because those schools were segregated. Now, if you had savanna state playing South Carolina state, that meant something, or florida a m came into town, that meant something because we had some connection with them, but now when you watch the georgia florida game or you watch the alabama game you have such a large number of black athletes involved so you can see that even there just from a perception or just sports or entertainment standpoint its quite different. Similarly now when you visit the campuses, i go to university of georgia, thats a campus that was not open to me and so i think its changed quite a bit. You can trace all these to brown . Oh, obviously. I think that thats the beginning. Thats something that could have been done years before. Ive read, i think, that you think that brown is sort of a precursor of affirmative action, that it opened the door. No, not really. No . No, i dont think so. I dont think ive ever said that im not quoting you as having said that but just that brown happened and then the enforcement of brown or the carrying out of brown opened the door for a kind of of racial spoil system. No, not really. I think that, yyou know, thats you know, you can debate that, but thats sort of the structural injunctionhrb you the remedy is something where you set up a broad system rather than deal with the case before you, but thats not i dont think thats accurate. Okay. I stand corrected. Now, how do you think brown impacted your life. You talked about these private schools which are not touched by brown that were open to you because of brown. What other ways do you think brown affected your life . Oh, i think just sitting here. Just the fact that were here. I mean, just think about it, to the extent that people have sentiments that were inconsistent with the constitution that were somehow enforceable either by custom or by law, brown was one of the major pieces that began the erosie erosion of those customs and those attitudes, whether its in parks, public facilities, whether its in public accommodations later on, but it changed and, i mean, i was right there in the late 60s and it was just beginning to change. It wasnt changed yet, but just think of something as simple as being able to go have a burger at one of the big boys in savanna, you couldnt do it. Yes, i mean, its changed tremendously. I think you cant overestimate the overestimate the significance of it. Who are the people who have been most significant in helping you develop your talents . I know the influence your grandfather had, but are there other people besides him . You know, i would have to really stay close to home with that because, you know, as the years have passed and i think about the people ive learned about or the people who have been participated in my education, et cetera, it all goes back to the most crucial parts of my life and those would be people like my neighbors, my cousins. These were uneducated people. In Liberty County, youve been there. Right. Youve been around bryan county and rural parts of Chatham County and those people have more of a direct influence on me. Now, nft educational arena i have to start with the nuns because the thing that they never bought into was the sense that somehow we were different and we were to be treated separately. Their expectations were that we were going to Parochial Schools and we would learn the Parochial School curriculum and there were no excuses. So they had an influence. But then it goes on from there and it gets a little bit easier once you start there. When you picked out for special mention was sister mary virgilis. Tell me about her. She is still alive, in her mid 90s, she is an irish immigrant who went into the convent in 1931. She was originally as far as our diocese were concerned she was at augusta at Immaculate Conception and went to savanna. Im mat lat conception and savanna were orphan ajs and they got out rid of the orphan ajs and became grammar schools. She was unyielding in her attitude that you would do well. It was consistent with my grandfathers attitude. Im a kid, 12 and 13 years old, i want to do what 12 and 13 yerltds to, i want to have fun and my grandfathers view and hers was that we did not have the luxury in the 50s to have fun. That we had an obligation to perform and to do well. A moment ago you mentioned neighbors, what about neighbors, what did neighbors do for you . Thats a really good question, its fascinating, nobody has ever asked me that. What they do is they reinforce. The people around you reinforce. For example, if youre learning piano or an instrument or sports, its called repetitions, repeating it over and over and over and over. Well, neighbors tended to reinforce what you were getting at home, what you were getting at school, what you were getting at your church. The positive things. What you got at the Carnegie Library in savanna, it was all the same message. So my cousin hatti or ms. Mariah, ms. Beck, ms. Ber trued, miss gladys next door, it was all the same message. In addition to your grandmother and grandfather theyre helping reinforce what theyre telling you . Yes. It was consistent. They were my neighbors and in the south of course when anybody could tell you what to do, you know, anybody could tell you to go to the store to buy some enough, some honey bee snuff or whatever they wanted at the time, some stand back or some anacin that they took frequently, and then they could i remember one day i was on east broad and henry street just down a few blocks from our house and we were cautioned never to cross the street against the light and of course im a kid so we crossed against the light, you know, there was no traffic so we ran across and out of the back window of the because you heard this voice, im going to t. D. On you. Uhhuh. That was the worst voice ever to hear. That was ms. Gertrude. And before we got home, i dont know how she got the message to my grandmother, but before we got home she had informed her that we crossed the street against the light where monday we we where upon we were informed that your grand daddy will deal with you when he comes home or she said your daddy will deal with you when you get home and that was the worst threat you could ever have. Did these people feel free to discipline you as well . Oh, yeah. They didnt have the need because they knew the father of my grandfather was more than enough to discipline us. If they had to, yes, and then we would get a second one from my grandfather. Oh, boy. Do you remember a specific events, historical or personal that you view as critical to your understanding of American Society and history, events from the civil rights movement, events in your neighborhood, events in savannah, something that let you know where you were, who you were, what was expected of you or not expected of you . You know, i that would be hard. I dont think its more a specific event. I think it was a daily event and it occurred with the neighbors or with the teachers. Its a small world. We lived a short walk from our school, our grammar school, and even shorter walk from st. Pious to attend high school, the farm in Liberty County was a 45minute drive even in that traffic on highway 17 and it was all the same, the same attitudes, the same culture. So i dont think of anything as one sporadic event occurring that shaped me. It was a continuum or a continuity of events, a series of events in our lives, our daily lives, that had the greatest influence. You write about your grandfather being called boy by a white woman and struggling to restrain himself from stabbing a white man after another assault. What effect did these have on you . You know, i dont know, as a kid i think it had a great affect on my grandfather which in turn had a great effect on me. He was an independent man as a result of things that happened in his life and he was a man who thought that, you know, when you talk of freedom, he talked of independence, that is, the ability to do for yourself, the ability to grow your food and he was a very active member in the naacp, we went to meetings, we went to 4 00 meetings on sunday, he would take us along because we have to learn. He thought that we should learn how to read so that we werent like him where he was had to work with his hands. He wanted us to learn how to work with our minds and be but i think it had an influence on him because it wasnt that he had an assault from the man on his ice truck, it was that he confronted him and said some unpleasant things to him and my grandfathers reaction was intensely passionate, that he wanted to he felt like he was going to harm that man. The boy incident was different because we were there. The first one we were not there, that was just an account that he gave us. We were there as little kids and to watch him first look at us and then look back at her, then look at us again, and then know its almost as though he made a decision that i have got to raise my boys. That discipline to imagine knowing him, the discipline it took for him to do the right thing and the responsible thing. Do you think he looked at you to test what your reaction would be to this insult he had received, or to see whether or not you had noticed it and absorbed it in any particular way . I think it was a blow and i think that he noticed us as we noticed him and as little kids, you know, i think you think, now what are you going to do . And how are you going to deal with it . You are the greatest man we know. And it would stump people they would see him emboldened by those things and do something in the wrong direction that can ultimately be selfdestructive. He did the hard thing to hold his discipline and its a levssn to see, to my brother, even when you might see strongly be something or feel justified in doing something that could be selfdestructive that you must do something thats more prudent and ben firm in the long run. Im maybe putting too much into this. Sort of an exercise in selfcontrol. Thats right. Look at how im reacting to this. This is a lesson for you. Remember what he said. Thats precisely the point that im making. Remember as i said earlier am my memoirs he always said to us that i will never tell you to do as i say, i will always tell you to do as i do. That is a hard burden to put on yourself. Yeah. Because we did indeed watch him. We were kids, we were always around him. It isnt like today where parents are hauling kids around to soccer and its like the parents are working for the kids now, it was the other way around when we were kids, we were like the little ducklings following the leader. Were there any incidents in the news when you were growing up in savannah that let you know who you were and what some people thought about you or how you ought to think about yourself . Oh, you know, i can remember being herded into our little den, thats where the motorola tv was and the news was a big deal in those days and we all had to watch what was going on in little rock, and being horrified and later on we would see the hosings and we would watch what happened in birmingham, the fire hoses, the dogs, things like that and it really absolutely had a tremendous impact on all of us. Im the same age as the little rock nine and they had a big influence on me because they were my age and i saw people like me, in birmingham im guessing in 63. I was in the eighth grade. So these are children roughly your age. Yeah. Did the fact that these young people were doing this speak to you more profoundly that it might have done had they been older people . First, yes, i was in the ninth grade when that happened. In ninth grade as a young kid you begin to feel your oats a little bit. Right. And you begin to have the sense that we should be to go something. And i can remember my grandfather distinctly telling us, no way, you are not old enough. That your job is to go to school. Your job is to learn. Thats what all of this is about. And so, yes, i mean, you saw it all. You saw other parts of the country and you also read about what was happening in savannah. The lunch counters, the kids interest Savannah State with the sitin, my grandfather in hushhush conversations to use his property for bail working with the naacp. And it cant but have an effect on you. A few minutes ago you mentioned wesley law who was long time president of the naacp in savannah, a man i knew fleet i thinkly but an impressive guy. Did other people who sat in this chair said there was a man in my town who was a leader in race matters, civil rights things and he was pointed out to me as somebody not that i ought to imitate but somebody who was doing things for the race was mr. Law he was revered in our household. In the w. W. Law we called him. He was a mailman and he was very active. He was a leader. He was someone who was very supportive and, you know, we disagreed on things, some matters years later, but those disagreements didnt change things with me and how i looked at him. But he was just a man who stood up when it looked like it was dangerous to stand up, you know. He was one who said this is wrong and im going to work to make changes. The other people that i didnt know who were revered in our household, again, phyllis and aaron aaron kravatz was a local lawyer in savannah and allowed blacks to use his law library and his daughter phillips kravatz, they were revered in our house and there were any number of others who would fight back or who would actually show up to the meetings and thats what my grand if a father would talk about, who showed up and who didnt show up, who had property to use for bail money and who refused to allow their property to be used. There was another gentleman in our area sam williams who was a friend of my grandfather who was also involved. So these people are held up to you as exemplars. Exactly. Theyre doing things and not necessarily that you have to do these things but theyre doing things that are admirable and setting an example for others and the ones who dont do these things are in effect letting the community down. I think his it was different then because they didnt always agree on what it was they should be doing. Sure. And as you remember years later when some of us became very radical we actually were critical of the sort of go slow approach or people working within the system, but my grandfathers attitude was that you should do something, you should not just sit and do nothing and you didnt have to always agree on what that something was, but you dont just accept the status quo because you are lazy or you are fearful and they were put up they were shown as examples of people who actually took the risk and made the effort to do something. Even if its something that you didnt necessarily agree with, they were doing something. They were doing something. As opposed to those who did nothing at all. Exactly. Let me take you back to the time when you were at Immaculate Conception seminary and you hear the news of Martin Luther kings assassination and a white seminary says this s. O. B. Is finally dead and you described that as a final straw in the interview that the did with the San Diego Tribune in 1998. What did that do to it seems to have set you off the path to the priest hood. I had been that was my fourth year in the seminary and i was always a little bit not always, but that year i was beginning to be a little shaky about it, but actually what he said, thats good, i hope the s. O. B. Dies. That wasnt so much that i was following every move of dr. King because there were others at the time, you know, this is when you were beginning to get this sort of beginning of the black power, malcolm x had been around and there had been more dissension than people talk about today but there was, as you know, so