Hiding in plain sight the pursuit of war criminals from nuremberg to the war on terror, a great death. Debt. Reat the author lively writing ensures it can be read by all of us. One of the cases the book examines is the the special courts prosecutor who masterminded the attempt to bring taylor to justice. He said the success or failure of prosecutions hinges on a full understanding of politics and diplomacy to ensure justice at the end of the day. Reading chapters over the last few days, i was amazed at the complexity of the efforts, legal, logistical, international to bring war criminals like Charles Taylor to justice. Knowught of a young man i from sierra leone who just school. D from the capture and prosecution of Charles Taylor was a deeply meaningful event. Arms were hacked off by rebel soldiers who killed his parents in front of him under the rule of Charles Taylor. Think to international effort, Charles Taylor was found guilty in april 2012 of all 11 charges levied by the special court for sierra leone, including murder, terror, and rape. Our three guests tonight based their books on years of research and indepth interviews and prosecutors and diplomats. There is more on our website. The director of human rights onter she teaches classes human rights and International Law. His current work focuses on the politics of accountability. A criminal court and the israelipalestinian conflict. Of theulty director human rights center, an adjunct professor at uc berkeley. In the early 90s he took part in conducting the First Research on the social and medical consequences of landmines in his Research Launched the International Campaign to ban landmines. Let me read and answered from the most memorable and often quoted prosecute your real off quoted off quoted statements the wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilizations cannot tolerate them being ignored, because they cannot survive them being repeated. You must never forget the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. The format tonight is a conversation and we will leave time at the end for your questions. Please wait for the microphone to come to you. Welcoming ericin stover to the l. A. Public library. [applause] thank you for helping us here tonight. Be ableu for girls to to make the trip girls out and for the chance to see so many of you. We are going to talk a little bit about this book and how it got launched. Wasg motivating question really how do you get some of the most us war crime suspects singlebars with complaint go, and operational obstacles to make that happen. To ely being able they count as one of the greatest threats to legitimacy. This whole system of laws put into place in the aftermath of world war ii has grown and matured over the last 75 years. One of the most exciting things working on this book has been to go out there and learn from some of the people that have helped design that framework. Managed out what they to do to make the system one that could ideally begin to find justice. Mentionedpans as was it goes up through the development from the former yugoslavia and rwanda. It talks about the evolution of hybrid trials. Or hybrid tribunals of a put together to marry International Criminal law with domestic and national efforts. Wethrough the war on terror see the moment of 9 11 as engendering a split in that evolution. Where as a moment choice needed to be made about how we would see justice in the aftermath of incredibly her thick incidents that ultimately impact people around the globe. First as a mentioned earlier is withnterplay of the legal the political and operational. To ultimately get people arrested and get accountability, you need to have Legal Framework that allows you to try them in a court of law. Operational ability to find those individuals. What we ultimately kept coming was about political will often became that critical element to see justice play out. Theme is thejor idea of being bound versus unbound by the law. When you are looking to get a present of a country, for example, behind bars, or some buddy who is politically powerful, there is a tension there. Who had tountries sign onto this framework over time had to make a choice. Or they willing to be bound are they going to assert their sovereignty in a way that they want to remain unbound to do what they feel most expedient in the moment . Im going to turn to both victor and eric and we are going to open it up to questions toward the end. You, the book opens with the flight of hundreds of people in the aftermath of world war ii. Why does the book start there and what does that tell us about the problems today and how we can ultimately engendered justice . Stover it is hard to condense world war ii into two minutes. Im going to leave japan out of the picture, we talk about the pursuit of war criminals. Keeping in mind this is a book of history. We are looking at it operationally. Secondly what is the legal means of which you can do it . And then the politics. The way to understand the pursuit of for criminals is putting it into three periods three periods of time. Thats from normandy, storming onto the beaches and moving across europe. We had the allied forces coming in. Of course the soviets, russians were coming in from the east. The legal regime is in place, essentially there would be trials of the major nazi war criminals. Across the spectrum. The london charter is in place. There was still an issue that was there. That was the british and you probably know, werent so sure that they wanted there trials where wouldnt be why have these trials . Roosevelt was holding out that there should be, we should have a judicial process. The other thing that is important is as the troops moved in, there was the. Ounterintelligence cord it would move in with the u. S. Troops. It would check out the neighborhood, and many of the were germanspeaking, have lived in europe. Jd salinger was a member of the counterintelligence corps. Bank and Henry Kissinger was a member of the counterintelligence corps. As they moved in, it wasnt. Ntil april until april that roosevelt finally made his decision that we are going to actually we are going to go after these war criminals. He was concerned that american troops and allied troops would be taken out by the germans and executed. We can give the order, counterintelligence cores are going to do these investigations. What happened was these men and women who went into concentration camps were overwhelmed by what they saw. It was at first fairly chaotic. Was is to say the beginning a chaotic pursuit. By the time occupation takes place we see several things happening. That is a photograph of the counterintelligence court. Se are all for the graphs all photographs we have in the book. Intomay officially december of 1949. Established. E allprogram was set up by the allied powers, in which those members of the nazi party were vetted. Some were sent to prison, some were dismissed from their jobs to teachers, to business, to whatever. Pow camps frequently, because the officers, people eichmann andnd others went through these camps, survivors from the concentration camp would come into the camps and try to identify the officers. The ss officers usually have their blood type either on their arm or their chest. He was actually captured but was never identified and was later able to escape. Then of course there are the nurnberg trials established. We see this massive effort to make this arrest. That was the soviet menace was beginning to trouble the left, particularly the United States. They have to back off from these trials and back off from these arrests. At the same time we begin realizing the scientific and brought about 764 and many ofces those were actually involved and we wanted information. Chemical weapon production and technology. 80 of them had been members of the nazi party and had been involved in abuses. Political changes taking place in which we are going to see this happen throughout history. It is no longer because of the soviet menace we are actually turn our back on justice essentially. Were rat lines established. From to barbie to the gestapo chief. They had all these lines run by andoatian priest in italy, they went off to various countries around the world. One of the scandals that arose from that was the fact that at barbie of the war clouse was giving intelligence to the Central Intelligence core and they put him on a rat line and made it all the way to bolivia. Up, we and into the postoccupation period. U. S. Allied powers are going to pursue these criminals anymore. The germans arent going to do it at this point. This is the theme we see in our book. We have the rise of individuals. Simon here in l. A. To and friedman, who was a polish jew held in a labor camp. After theseoing nazis who fled throughout the world. And they started using techniques. This is who was german herself. 1967. Appened in and George Kissinger is giving a speech in germany and she gets up and shout at him and was actually closer to him. Chairman this is the who is slapping the nazi path, because he had been in not the propaganda from the past. They started using these techniques to try to change the political discourse. Captures of to the him have to do you because this is whereed him and him that it is a you are facts offinally the is ang free and there soviet cold war. Was really appreciated that the right organizations around the that organizations around the world started coming out in demanding change and accountability. This started to change how we go after these criminals in this new phase in the 1980s and 90s. This first flicker of the evolution of International Law is a way to do with these atrocities. We begin to see the thawing of the cold war and the rise of the new ad hoc tribunals. Victor, what does this experience of ad hoc tribunals and the evolution of the International Criminal court, which came out of that, ultimately mean for when and how we will see global justice . Thank you for that essential question. In contrast to nuremberg and , they have a monumental and enduring challenge. At nuremberg you have an occupying army. The rest were pretty easy in comparison to today. You have people fled to argentina, many thousands who fled. Tribunals do not have a global lapd. This is a huge problem. A lot of people, optimists, were initially pessimistic about the prospects of the yugoslavia tribunal actually succeeding. You did not have a political will, which was so looks so essential. The comparison underscores how just tol will can make succeed and fail. I want to show you the first slide of a wanted poster of today that we have in our book from the National Tribunal from will on the. 90 suspects with the genocide in rwanda. Its a pretty successful arrest record. Moving onto the next slide, this late picture in the 1990s. Days of the tribunal, the problem of arrest was monumental. Explain, as i will all of the indicted suspects were accounted for. In special essentially the suspects had been arrested and handed over. It is quite a remarkable record. This shows International Justice in an ability to succeed political conditions. If we go to International Criminal courts, a new age healer hid out in belgrade. If we go to the International Criminal court, a new premise was opened a year ago i believe. Heres the cover photo of the book. For crimes against humanity and atrocities. The international Committal Court experience the share genocide in for 2009. And other officials were also indicted. We see a contrast on the yugoslavian and rwanda tribunals and the court in sudan. Success and failure in terms of arrest. The International Court more generally has been able to gain custody of approximately half of his ready to indicted suspects. 32 indicted suspects. In light of the lack of enforcement powers, all tribunals and the tribunal said i have to become political, i have to Lobby International political actors such as nato, the European Union to pressure targeted states to hand over suspects. Game andhe name of the social pressure. In the case of the former yugoslavia, the tribunal chief prosecutors first put pressure on the nato peacekeepers after and scores ofords other suspects who have been indicted. What actually happened . Nato commanders wanted nothing recipe the primarily because of fear of troop casualties. Shame natorosecutors into taking action and arresting scores of bosnian serbs. Is scores of suspects, especially crossed serbia andother enjoyed a protection of who came under indictment. Problem is you didnt have an International Peacekeeping force there. Now the tribunal had another problem, how to compel serbia to hand over suspects widely regarded as war heroes. It is a difficult task, very hard. The key to that is activist and chief prosecutor pressure on the European Union to press belgrade and croatia into handing over suspects. You have a couple of options. You can threaten punishments or offer rewards. The European Union had a perfect system. It was too conditioned serbias desired advancement toward european admission. Leverage is used to advance along the path to membership slowly in terms of handing over suspects. The serbian government played very deviously in terms of handing over small suspects as long as possible. Around 2008, the European Union and ultimatums in 2011 ultimately the serbian authorities handed over all of it suspects. That is a very hopeful and successful case. Turning to sudan and the International Criminal ernational Committal Court the International Criminal chief prosecutor, who had been sued of and the chief prosecutor who indicted him for genocide in connection with the murder of 300,000 people. The crimes actually continue in darfur or, according to Amnesty International the Sudanese Armed forces are committed. Chemical attacks are primarily targeting children and babies. Attacks continue, we dont hear much about it however. So they pressed the security actually calld upon the International Criminal court in the first place to investigate darfur. She repeatedly makes calls for his arrest and she is virtually ignored. Meanwhile if we go to this classic photo here you see shear hiding and traveling in plain sight. It pretty much encapsulates the problem of hiding in plain sight. All the indictment has traveled timesationally 100 131. There are beginning to arrest them but they hadnt. Parties it creates a monumental problem and underscores the essential role of political will. The African Union in particular. As been a great supporter it is looking at another array of global actors who have sidelined the International Criminal court such as our government. Last friday barack obama decided a major part of the sanctions sudan, which is still an official sponsor of the state his decision comes despite the attacks of last year. Watch callsrights it an inexplicable decision and softening of pressure, but it undermines the prerogative of try him forne day genocide and crimes against humanity. Could end on a hopeful note, politics do change. We saw that in the balkans and in sierra leone. So, hopefully, it will change again visavis sudan and other cases i havent had the opportunity to speak about it. Thank you. So, we have the evolution of the International Criminal court coming out of the development of the tribunals in bosnia and rwanda. The interesting thing about the icc and what comes next is that the International Criminal court, the low statute that brought the court into being was in 1998. When the court began operations, there was an effort to get enough countries to sign on to the court that it could legally come into operation. What happens before 2002 when they have the necessary number of signatures . On september 11, we have the attack on the United States. All of a sudden, you see the shift arrest United States had where as the United States a supporter of this framework, you suddenly see this thelict with what they feel need to effectuate next. This is where we see the split in the road. S thathad been this pas had gone underground during the cold war and reemerged and looked like a moment in history where law would become the solution to a lot of the challenges of the present day, you see to paths begin to form. The immediate aftermath of 9 11, you all of a sudden have the passing of what was called operation greystone. , it operation greystone was was a directive issued by president bush that ultimately gave the cia a tremendous amount of power and a tremendous amount of authority to determine how we would respond in the aftermath of that particular atrocity. It set up a regime of what was known as secret renditions individuals believed to be affiliated with terrorism, often thatover of darkness being a phrase that we use repeatedly Interrogation Practices that were above and beyond what we had seen previously in what had previously been authorized. We also see with operation greystone the beginning of our neutron program. Whereas during the genocide in yugoslavia, we been using drugs for surveillance purposes. All of a sudden, you have the army of drones and the ability to use them to take of individuals affiliated with terrorism. Now, the cia has this directive to go out there and gather people up. The cia