This week on q and a, mr. Pulleo discusses his book. Steven pulleo, welcome. Whats that about . Who is harry neil . He was one of the Great Secret Service agents during the Second World War and later on during his career as a secret Service Agent he was responsible for transferring some of americas most priceless documents, the declaration of independence. This date was december 26th, 1941, the day after americas pearl harbor christmas. How did he get involved and why did they go to fort knox . The secret service gets involved when the library of Congress Needs help. Hes kind of responsible for these documents and he wants really the Top Law Enforcement Agency in the country at the time, the secret service, to help him with this move. Fort knox was chosen because it was americas most impenetratable location. It had been open several years prior. There had been lots of gold already transferred there. So the secretary of the treasury gives permission to use a portion of the deposit oer for these documents. Which documents went there. Lincolns second inaugural address and the copy of the magga carter which the United States was holding on to for safe keeping for britain. The british had sent it to the United States for the 1939 worlds fair. When the war broke out in europe, asked us to hold on to it for protection. So it left over here at Union Station how did it get to fort fox . It gets to fort knox on the Baltimore Ohio National limited train overnight which goes out to louisville. There its met by other agents, secret Service Agents, and a military a group of military vehicles and they transfer it from there to fort knox. Whats the thinking as to why it needed to go there . All these items needed to go there . Tremendous concern, brian, in washington at the time of an attack, either a bombing attack or sabotage on the nations capital. So there was it was a harrowing time here. There were guards everywhere, guns on the roofs, the white House Windows were painted black and there was talk of painting the white house black. The oval office is fitted with bulletproof glass. Fdr and his staff are given gas masks. He keeps his on the arm of his wheelchair because of potential for attacks. There was great concern by president roosevelt and others that the destruction of the original declaration, the original constitution, would have this disastrous psychiatric impact on the country as a well. We have video. Its after he was the librarian of congress so we can see what he looked like and what he sounded like. This has always been the policy of the american people. Peace is now the necessity of the american people. If there is another war, if there is another aggressor, the United States will be the first target of that aggressors action. He was in the state department at that time. What were his politics . How close was he to fdr and who started who got interested in saving these documents first . So he was a very staunch ant antifaushist. He was concerned that some of other intellectual friends, he was a man of the arts, he was a poet, he was concerned those folks didnt take the nazi threat seriously. He wept when the nazis marched into france. He believed it was his duty in taking an active role in protecting the documents and he did that. Its one of the reasons that fdr taps him in 1939, he has the foresig foresight, he knows this issue is under way, the nazis are about to running rough shod in europe or are going to run rough shod in europe are making threats. One of the reasons he taps him is because of his position, his antinazi, antifaushist position. Fdr i think initially has the idea about the documents. Hes quite concerned. He views himself as a real steward of these documents. Very very important to him. When he brings him on board, he immediately shares this concern with him, which he shares as well. Theyre both aware by 1940 that the british have lost many many documents during the blitz, during the bombings of london. The germans have destroyed many documents in europe. Lots of books, potentially, particularly by jewish authors and others. And so this is a real concern these would be a target. What about all the on the documents in the library of congress or in the National Archives, what happened to them at this point . Yeah, the library of congress, this movement of the declaration of the constitution begins the largest relocation of priceless documents for safe keeping in American History. About 5,000 boxes of other documents, precious documents are moved from the library of congress to university repositories that are somewhat inland. The university of virginia, char lotsville, washington, dennisson university in grandville. They are moved there after the library of Congress Staff people examine around 60 locations in the area that would be somewhat inland and somewhat protected from potential bombing attacks and had all the requisite needs to protect documents. So humidity issues had to be dealt with. Leakage and water issues had to be dealt with. Were they protected from mice and vermin. That begins that process from january to may of 1942 these documents are moved totally in secret. How did they move them . They moved them by truck. By tractortrailer, if you will. The boxes were packed in the library of congress and stored in the basement and moved late at night to these different reposatories around virginia and ohio. How many people were involved in getting these boxes ready . It was quite an amazing task. About 700 staffers devote about 10,000 hours of their time to assessing, collecting, packing these documents and getting them ready. He was very adamant that he wanted documents that were utterutte utterly irreplaceable to be part of this effort and he asks them to break them into six tiers. You moved down tier by tier for the importance of the documents, but maybe not essential to the replacement of the american public. It was very well thought out and it starts in the late 1940s. So a year before pearl harbor. 1940 . 1940, yes, a full year before pearl harbor, yeah. What were the requirements at these locations and start with fort knox . Where were they actually put in fort knox . They were put right in the gold bullion depositatory. At the time there was lots of gold in fort knox. It was at its peak at about that time, 1941, 1942. So he has to make a decision. What documents are going to be there . The original engrossed declaration . Definitely. The article engrossed federation . Definitely. The gettysburg address considered critical. He makes this decision very methodically i think on whats going to go to fort knox. These are considered the most valuable documents in the country. And the mag nau carta is the document that hes been asked to preserve. He thought it was quite ironic and thought jefferson would approve that they would be in that same area in fort knox. Talk about the lincolns gettysburgs address. Theres five copies including one in the lincoln bedroom and one on the cornell, two in either in the library of congress and then another one is at the Illinois Historical maybe as far as i know it may be in the Lincoln Museum by now. Whats considered the gettysburgs address . The library of congress has the two copies lincolns aids essentially. The one that was considered used right on the battlefield, the socalled battlefield copy and then that he then copies over and gives to his two aids, thats the copies of the gettysburgs address, copies one and two if you will as they are labeled when they go to fort knox. And then the other copies are copies that lincoln did in his own hand and did for close political advisors, friends, those sorts of things. Those are the ones that youre referring to. Library of congress has the first two copies. What did the public know about the movement of these documents at the time they were moved . Virtually nothing. These documents were moved in secrecy. There were folks on the receiving end at the university who knew they were getting boxes from the library of congress. They werent sure what was in them, but they maintained the secret. One of the things that he marvels about in his reports after is that everybody kept this a secret. Truck drivers, packers, library staffers, folks on the other end who unloaded the trucks, you name it. There was not a leak as part of this. When did they return to washington . They returned to washington in september of 1944. So three months or so after dday. Use that as your point in history. Theres little concern at that point that the germans are going to attack the mainland because theyre on the run, basically, as the allies are moving across europe and the documents are brought back. There is one exception prior to that, the original declaration of independence is brought back on april 13th, 1943 for one week. Its during the dedication of the jefferson memorial. Fdr thinks it would be really good for National Moral to have the original declaration on display. It is thousands of people view it. Its under marine guard for 24 hours. And then its put back into fort knox. Nobody knows where it came from or where it was going back to. Other people in your book governor morris, what role has he played . The governor of pennsylvania, the man with the strange first name as its called, some people think he was governor morris of pennsylvania, but that is really his first name, he writes the very famous and eloquent p preamble to the constitution. Morris i think explains the whole purpose of the constitution, explains how important it is with that preamb preamble. Is really the author of that preamble from beginning to end. One other thing i think he does during the discussion of the presidency is he makes it very very clear that the chief executive, this is during the Constitutional Convention in 1787, the chief executive would not be the king. He should not be viewed as the king in this new government. Hes more like the prime minister. The people of the king, he says. This whole notion of the people bestowing the power upon government and not the other way around, hes one of the people that continues that codifies that in the constitution, the principal that was first articulated in the declaration of independence. My memory is hes 35 years old soor Something Like that . Yeah, he was very young. Where was he from . He was from pennsylvania. He was a patriot. He was a delegate to the constitution. He had other elected positions in pennsylvania, so he was considered in many ways an intelle intelle intellectual and in many ways he had this reputation of having a great sense of humor and had a reputation of being a fill la land landerer. When the rubber meet the road his days show through. Who is tim knee matlock. He is a friend of jeffersons, a patriot, the Continental Congress wants the declaration engrossed for all time and then signed afterwards. Matlock is that engrosser. It takes him a couple of weeks to do it. That document is now at the National Archives, the document that americans may see hanging in School Buildings or government offices or may have in their own homes, thats the engrossed copy of the declaration and its signed by most of the delegates. How many copies are recognize in had as first generation copies that are around . Well, so the engrossed copy of the declaration of independence is at the National Archives, the original. Theres one copy of that. You may be referring to the dunlap broad sides which are the declaration of independence printed copies that were printed on the night of july 4th, 1776 in hot type in john dunlaps printing shop signed only by john han cog. There are about 17 of those that exist today, but the engrossed copy with all the signatures of the delegates, theres one. Its been reproduced many times. In 1823 is when the exact fact s similar facsimile is reproduced. The original thats in the ro tunda, theres one. Is there a story behind how it got to a facsimile . Yeah. John quincy adams asked an engraver here in washington, d. C. To produce an exact replica. There had been people that produced certain replicas of the declaration, whether it was exact, who had the official replica version, so he says to stone go produce something thats exact and he does. It takes him about three years to painstakingly do it. But the document you see now, the one that as i say you may have hanging in your home or a school classroom, is incredibly exact. Right down to the signatures which is pretty amazing. Do you have any idea how much a dunlap be valued today . I dont. I know that theres been assessments done by the library of congress that range in the hundreds of the thousands. But i dont really have an exact number on what that would be. Do you know where the 17 are . The library of congress has one. I believe the Mass Historical Society has one. Theyre located around in different societies, yeah. Who was stephen pleasanton. A real hero in American History, i think. He was a state Department Clerk in 1814, when the british invade and burn washington. They storm in, they burn the capitol, they burn the president s house, they burn other buildings in washington, and the state department, and he at that point in time thinks just before they get there, its probably a good idea to save some of the documents and to save the original declaration and the original constitution. And he does so. He stuffs them into a linen sack, and drives them by wagon 35 miles away and puts them in an abandoned farmhouse. He does it in defiance of the secretary of war at the time who says he doesnt believe its necessary, he dent think the british are coming to washington, d. C. He believes baltimore was their target, which is correct, it was as well. The secretary of war totally underestimates the potential value of the destruction of these documents. Pleasanton does not. He makes that save. And is, again, one of the people who have been stewards of these documents throughout history. So where did this book come from . This book comes i read a small Magazine Article several years ago about the fact that these documents the big three as i call them, the declaration, the constitution, and gettysburg address were moved to fort knox during the Second World War. I never heard of this. Im shocked. I consider myself something of an expert on the Second World War on the home front and had no idea this was happening. I said, i need to research this. That was kind of the genesis of the idea. And as i went through the library of congress documents and primary sources on these on this move, on this massive move, i then said, wow, whats the why here . Why did we go through so much trouble . What makes these documents so important . And i realized i had to kind of go back and look at the creation of these documents, the preservation of these documents, the rescue of these documents, and the ideas contained in these documents. Thats why the book reads in this kind of braided narrative going back and forth from world war ii, to 1776, or 1787, or 1814. Thats why the book is written that way. One line on page 236, given what people are saying today, i found it very interesting, americans lack of interest in its history troubled the founders. Today we have a lot of people think that nobody cares about history. Was it that bad back then . Well, i think there was a bit of amnesia. And this is basically prior to the war of 1812. The war of 1812 kind of rekindles this patriotic fervor, if you will, or spirit in the founders. And then that really comes to play in july 4th of 1826. So americas golden jubilee, the 50th anniversary of the declaration of independence, when americans really celebrate that day. There is this kind of rekindling of patriotic fervor, and on july 4th, 1826, two of americas greatest founders, Thomas Jefferson and john adams, both die on july 4th. And i think that raises the fourth of july and increases the patriotic fervor to a whole new level. So, yeah, there was lots of concern at the time prior to that. So how did you go about it . Doing the research, is that what you mean . Yeah. The documents in the library of congress on this topic are there. The mcleash papers are there. Lots in the mcleash papers and lots in the move of documents. And in the National Archives is a substantial amount of documentation on this, too. Because eventually, of course, in 1952, these documents are moved to the National Archives, the declaration and the constitution. So lots of primary source material in there as well. So that kind of kicks the thing off. And then tremendous amount of primary sources on these different periods, 1776, 1787, in fact, ironically, the James Madisons notes of the Constitutional Convention in 1787, those are saved in 1814 by Dolly Madison, who literally rescues them at the last minute from the white house. And i thought as i was going through madisons papers, i would not have the opportunity to do this if not for Dolly Madisons heroism in 1814. How does did you get to these documents . So the documents on the move are primary source documents, actual physical touching of the documents. Many of the other documents from these different periods are used online. Theyre digitized. So john adams papers, for example, are totally digitized by the Mass Historical Society. Its a wonderful treasure trove of documents. Madisons papers are digitized at the library of congress. Thats wonderful. So really, a lot of that research, that original research from then you can do really in a digital way. Which is a fascinating way to do research. Heres some video, the transfer you just mentioned. December the 13th, 1952. As we watch it on screen, why is t