Reel the author of the incredible book quest for the presidency the storied and surprising history of president ial campaigns in america from university of nebraska, press and this is one of these books that is welcoming to scholars and for armchair historians and for general readers of all sorts one of the things that we do together, one of the really only unifying things we do together. All of us as a country is a president ial election every four years. We all have a stake in those of us are voting age that is in terms of where our country is going. And it distills the destiny of the United States into a single human being and index and in essence for range of ideas. This has been a feature of this country since the presidency of George Washington and bob real has pulled together a comprehensive history of every single president ial election in one readable volume. This is the word surprising in the subtitle is not frivolous even president ial scholars, i think are going to find details in here that they havent seen before and i was proud to give a cover endorsement to this book and im really honored to be sitting here talking to to bob. Thank you for doing this job and thank you to the National Archives for hosting us. Yeah. Thanks for having me on time. Thanks for that. Wonderful introduction. I feel a slidered and yeah, i just second thanks to the National Archives for having us on and its a Great Organization for for Research Online or in person and yeah, we appreciate it. Thanks. Yes, and the other Great Organizations that we should talk about here in the United States are coffee houses and taverns exactly. These were the social media of the day certainly and is where a country persons got together to talk argue. Sometimes spiritually about the great issues facing the country and what they were going to do when it came to the massive decisions that we make every four years. So in that spirit, im going to open up. All right, open up a beer. Im gonna get loaded. Dont worry. This is a nonalcoholic bear, but yeah, and then bob. Ive my coffee here and thank you for starting with this tom. Its a its a part of my book as you know. Yes, i tried to make the book accessible to a popular audience and one of the things i did was divide american political history into seven years and the introduction to each era as you know, i set in in historic tavern or coffee shop that was relevant to the time and all of them still exist today. So anybody who reads the book and wants to do sort of a seven site tour of these places is welcome to but what i did was i try to come up with a story that was relevant to that tavern or coffee shop. That was also relevant to American History in that period so for instance, you know a cafe du monde in new orleans, which Everybody Knows today as a pretty big tourist spot you go to the free coffee beignets, but it open in 1862 in the middle of the civil war. And at the time new orleans was under a union blockade. And there was a coffee shortage, so its kind of an interesting time to open a coffee shop. So what residents did was they mixed coffee with chicory roots to make the coffee last longer and today kathy dumont still serves coffee mixed with chicory root. Its there. Its their specialty. So for each error, i try to find a story like that thats relevant, but that, you know provides a bit more context to that era so the cheers to coffee shops and taverns. Heres heres the coffee shops and taverns and and you begin the narrative with a coffee shop that has been reconstructed in a sense write a stride Independence Hall in philadelphia. Can you talk about the significance of that particular coffee house . Yeah, so yeah, this couple coffee houses. Um, yeah, so i interesting because the the version of the book. I talk about city tavern in philadelphia, which was very significant because its where philadelphia was the National Capital for a while. Its where the declaration of independence was written, of course in 1776 and the National Constitution in 191787. And city tavern was just down the street from Independence Hall. And whos who have the Founding Fathers used to go there and they used to grab beers. They had a coffee room. They had they had a tavern and they used to go there and after, you know being an Independence Hall all day and debating the constitution they go down there and have a beer and continue their debates. So unfortunately city tavern closed during the covid pandemic. It was unfortunate victim of of the pandemic. So we made a lastminute change in the book, which may even have been after you read it and we inserted frances tavern in new york city, which is also very very relevant to the founding generation George Washington met with his commanders there during the revolutionary war Alexander Hamilton and aaron burr were actually there for union of revolutionary war veterans just a week or two before hamilton killed burr in in the duel. So anyways, both of them were very connected to the founding of the United States and they both. Francis tavern still exists city tavern. We hope is eventually going to be reopened. We mentioned earlier that these places were like the twitter or the facebook of their day in which ideas were batted around sometimes with great ranker one of the defining features the lasting impacts of president ial campaigns are the if youll excuse the expression the tweets the ways that ideas are crystallized just down to a few words i can think of tippecanoe and tyler too. You look yeah. Thats one of those things that we remember William Henry harrison for yeah, right nixons the one right. Yes, people can a blinking the rail splitter. I like i honest a cool coolidge Barry Goldwater a choice not an echo. Can you talk about the the crystalization of these ideas and some would say the gross simplification of complex policy into these, you know chance. Yeah, and it what i find interesting is yeah, this is obviously a big part of Politics Today it it really started in a way with typical and tyler tour with the 1840 campaign, which i find fascinating democracy was becoming a lot more popularized around the time. I mean began with Andrew Jackson and you know 1828. But prior to jackson politics was still a sport for elitists really and and it began opening up more states began having a popular vote with the of jackson, but 1840. Really interesting story the the wigs nominated William Henry harrison, and the democrats van buren was the incumbent and they originally thought you know van buren beat harrison four years ago and harrisons oldies late 60s, and you know, of course we can beat him again and some newspaper editor or columnist wrote a piece saying that you know, you should just retire harrison to his Old Log Cabin and give him some hard cider to drink and heal while away the rest of his days, you know, and the wigs took that and they ran with it and they and they totally turned it around on the democrats and they said yes, of course, you know, he, you know, hes a veteran and he does he lives in a lot of cabin and he does drink hard cider and hes a common person just like the rest of us. And they created this Amazing Campaign and they you know, they had parades with log cabin floats, and they used to sell bottles of whiskey, you know shaped like log cabins and tippecanoe in tyler too shaving cream and all these things and it was really the first mass branding of a political candidate and they did they distilled it right down to that slogan typicanoe and tyler too and many people listening will probably know this but if you dont tip a canoe was William Henry harrison defeated some Indian Tribes at the battle of tippecanoe who are trying to form a native american confederacy and tyler was his Vice President ial candidate. So it typically new and tyler too. It was very illiterative at rhymed and they just ran with that and the irony of this is that harrison was actually a pretty wealthy candidate he grew up in a pretty wealthiest state in virginia. He moved to the northwest territories. He lived in ohio and his 22 were mentioned overlooking the ohio river. And Martin Van Buren was the son of a tavern owner in upstate new york in the hudson river valley. So van buren was actually the common man candidate and harrison was the elitist but the wigs were able to make it so that harrison seemed like the common man and they made van buren the incoming president to the elitists and i mean ever since then branding and especially trying to distill the branding down to a slogan. Its been with us ever since all the way up to make America Great again, you know. Is this a good way in your view and im not just talking about recent crystallization of ideas down to you know, 140 characters. Is this is this a healthy way to run a democracy . Oh, thats a good question. I mean i mean, theres no way around it. Obviously because i mean its its a system that we have and theres pros and kinds i mean, obviously the easy answer is no its not, you know, we should have discussions of issues and we should vote based on that but but its the society we live in i like to think of, you know, 1960 the first president ial debate between kennedy and nixon that was on television and theodore white. Its kind of interesting because now we watch a debate and they give candidates, you know, one minute to make an Opening Statement or to answer a question and the moderators are always interrupting and saying, you know stop, you know your times up back in 1960 when kennedy and nixon debated, i believe i maybe wrong in the exact numbers, but i believe they had eight minutes for their Opening Statement each and you take two and a half minutes to answer a question in theater or white who wrote that great book the making of the president in 1960. He complained even then that it wasnt enough time. You know, how do you explain complex issues and two minutes or eight minutes or whatever you just cant do it, but what he said was that what it did do with the debate did do was it sort of show candidates . Under stress and it showed them, you know in a certain environment and i think these slogans sort of do that too. I mean if you can distill your candidacy into a slogan that resonates with people or that, you know captures the zeitgeist, you know, sort of like obama did in a way. Or reagan did in 1980 or even sell the candidates through the years if you can do that then i think it says something about i hope it says something about your vision for you where you want to take their country. So, yeah, ideally no we have discussions of issues, but thats not going to happen. So i think there is something at least to be said for the way its still down sure. I mean as much as wed like to think of ourselves as rational beings who study complex policy issues and weigh the evidence and arrive at a carefully considered verdict human nature just doesnt work that way, right we as as every car salesman know knows we we go on feelings and we justify it later after the fact with whatever data that we can marshall selectively, you know, cherry picked sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Was there an election that you that you covered in this vast research that how do i say this . Is was more carefully considered than others or did you find that current of passion underneath everything . When you carefully considered as in not emotional. Yeah a more calm thoughtful if youll excuse the phrase kind of boring, you know set of clear differences clear choices that did not come down to raw charisma raw feeling. I think if theres a set of clear choices then no i think emotion is always going to play a part. There are certainly a few campaigns that were less charismatic one that comes to mind are the the battles between Grover Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison in 1888 and 1892. You know harrison defeated clevelands bid for reelection 88 although cleveland won the popular vote and then 1892 cleveland came back and he defeated harrison. Neither cleveland nor harrison. I havent can be accused of being very charismatic and im sure im going to get this quote wrong, but some writer referred to the election they said you know sort of like calm mustachio Grover Cleveland going up against calm bearded, you know, rutherford bas and the Biggest Issue in the election was was tariffs whether we should, you know, raise or increase raise our lower terrorists. It did not inspire a lot of a lot of passion or a lot of parades or you know, great slogan or anything. So yeah, there are a few elections like that, but i think in general most elections elicit a lot of emotion and i think thats one of the things that we forget because were so focused on the present day or the past few elections in American History, you know, i remember youll only goes back so far. But sometimes we forget how fascinating some of these older elections really were and how much emotion they really stirred in people in. In the introduction to my book i quote alexis to talk about and democracy in america where he said, you know elections in the United States are you know like this again, im gonna knock any of the quid exactly, right . But this time in national passion, and he said its as if a fever takes over the entire country during an election, but you wrote that in 1835, you know, and so he saw that way back then and so in that sense, you know the passions that were seeing today. Are not very different because people always think that the future of the country hinges on the outcome of the election and sometimes its really true. Sometimes its not but i think people often feel that way. Sure. Its easy to look at composites a portraits gatherings of all the president s you get these guys with the mutton chops. And as you mentioned various interesting facial hair particularly in the mid to late 19th centuries, and you know their names come down to you know, some older high schools. Perhaps bear their name chester a Arthur Benjamin harris and James Garfield. Yeah. Theres a vaguely familiar, but you know, we we obviously forget that at one time these were pitched battles spirited arguments titanic wife or death struggles and some of them over issues that as you say are have receded into our National Consciousness and you know when i think about those guys, whatever reason like maybe because im from the west i think of james k polk, but a tennessean whos one term presidency was enormously consequential and i dont think is is widely appreciated. Just how much was done during that presidency in the 1840s enormous decisions, you know. Yeah. It was yeah a lot of people dont think of poke these days, but yes, you know, excellent work enormously consequential and i have i have a piece when one of the other things i do in my book is at the end of every year three or five elections. I have a piece that sort of tries to put these elections into context to try to connect elections across time that so we have a better understanding and so but either those elections in context or put them in context of the current day, and i have a piece after folks presidency he won in 1844. I mean just by the skin of his teeth he won the popular vote by a small amount and he went one the Electoral College because he won the state of new york by i think was 5, hundred and six votes over henry clay and clay lost new york. There was a Third Party Candidate james bernie of the antislavery the Abolitionist Liberty Party who won about 15,000 votes in new york that might otherwise have gone to clay. So pope came very close to losing the election and whats interesting is that this was when the annexation of texas was on the national agenda, john tyler had introduced it and polk being a protege of Andrew Jackson and being a southern democrat was in favor of annexing texas. They wanted more slave territory in the country and henry clay although he was from kentucky. He was more northern in his sensibilities. He did not want to annex, texas and he he came out and he said, texas is going to be settled by our race. Theyre gonna have similar customs to us that theyre going to speak english. Were going to be good neighbors, but theyre going to be their own country. And so if clay had won the election, its at least possible. I mean, nobody knows with history, but its possible that texas would never have an annexed and certainly that there were never have been a mexicanamerican war because it was the annexation of texas and then pulled put troops in in west texas, you know over the dispute of boundary. That the war started and then the United States, course, you know in troops went down as far as mexico city, i believe and the peace treaties after the war the United States acquired new mexico. What is now, new mexico, arizona, california parts of colorado, nevada . So its possible none of that would have been part of the United States, which is fascinating to think about and the civil war. I mean, who knows . I mean there would have been disputes over slavery, but the civil war was triggered in large part because it disputes over whether there should be slavery in the west. So its